What is your confession regarding Jesus

[Anonymous]

Hi David,

I think you mean that your Trinitarian-sponsored ENGLISH TRANSLATION of the Bible tells you the Word was GOD…!!!

The NWT tells me the Word was a god. Now, would it be fair for me to say, “MY BIBLE tells me – the Word was a god…!!! END OF STORY.!!!” ? Of course not. Because then we would be arguing one man’s TRANSLATION of a Greek scripture against another man’s TRANSLATION of a Greek scripture.

So there are some things that you need to first know:

1. Even the TRINITARIAN scholars will tell you that “a god” is grammatically just as faithful a translation of John 1:1c as “God” is.

2. There is no indefinite article in the Hebrew or Greek languages. So every time in scripture you read the English article “a”, it was added by English translators so that the sentences make sense to us who speak English. (The “a” is added about 7000 times in scripture.)

3. In John 1:1c, there is neither indefinite “a”, nor definite “the”. So for a translation of “God”, we have to ADD the definite article “the”. And for a translation of “a god”, we have to ADD the indefinite article “a”. Either way, an addition is being made.

4. These following words are from the 25 TRINITARIAN scholars who produced the NET Bible translation…………

Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb.

You’ll notice that there are THREE choices of translation. One is to add the definite – “God”. One is to add the indefinite – “a god”. And the third is to understand it as saying the Word was “qualitatively god”. (Others translate it adjectivally, as “divine”, or “godlike”. But the Greek word “theos” in part c is not written in the adjectival form.)

So, out of our three choices, the second and third are basically the same thing. Because for one to be “qualitatively man”, that one is also, by necessity, “a man”. Likewise, for one to be “qualitatively god”, that one is also “a god”.

So now we’re down to “the god”, or “a god”. Here is some more from those same 25 Trinitarian scholars from NET Bible………….

The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)……..

This is the one I’d like to ask you about. Are you able to see that if the Word actually was “God”, then John 1:1 says that our ONE and ONLY God was WITH our ONE and ONLY God in the beginning. How in the world can ONE THING be WITH itself?

So read that last quote from the NET scholars once again – and tell me if you, like these Trinitarians, are honest enough with yourself to conclude that the Word couldn’t actually be the person of God, because that is ruled out by part b.

[Oneway]

I would like to add to this debate if I may. I don’t want to be too lengthy; but I see here two men who believe they are being taught by revelation who have two opposing views. Both cannot be revealed by the Spirit of God. I grew up in the US in a Southern Baptist church and was a staunch believer in the doctrine of the Trinity. I taught it and preached it and never had any reason to doubt it; not even after moving away from Baptist teachings and into the full gospel as taught in the Scripture. I then found myself in a United Pentecostal Church who taught something altogether different. They taught that Jesus was all there was. He sometimes revealed Himself as Father, and sometimes as Son, and other times as Holy Spirit; but was really all Jesus. They make a lot out of Matthew 28 where we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. They say the singular name of all three is Jesus.

As you can imagine; this did not sit well with a staunch Trinitarian. However; I knew these people to be sincere and were not people who would lead me astray on purpose; so I set out to prove the doctrine of the Trinity by my Scripture. I determined to NOT use any inferences; but to limit myself to what is expressly written in the scripture. What I found changed my belief system entirely.

When I began I was having a hard time finding scripture that truly backed up the doctrine of the Trinity. I had always heard of God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit but was astounded to discover that only God the Father is found written that way in scripture. One can find the Son of God many times; but God the Son not once. I went to Trinitarian scholars for help and found that even professors at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary admitted that the doctrine is not expressly found in the scripture.

I found that the scriptures most often used by both the Trinitarians and the Jesus name only people were the same scripture. They just looked at them in a different light. Again I was seeing honest and sincere individuals who were using the same scripture and coming up with altogether different conclusions. I began to see that if one read the Bible just as it is with no inferences at all or with no previous teaching; they would likely come up with the fact that there is only One God and He is the Father. In ways we do not understand He had a Son who was Jesus. God is also a Spirit and that Spirit is Holy-hence a Holy Spirit. I understand some will call that simplistic and wonder at my lack of understanding; but I honestly see no problem with believing that way.

However; I did want to examine some of the scripture used to back up the various doctrine. Everyone uses the words of Jesus as he says; “I and my Father are one.” The Jesus name folks say case closed. Jesus said they were one. The Trinitarians say case closed. The two; along with the Holy Spirit are One. No one seems to look at the words of Jesus in John 17:22 where Jesus in his prayer says; “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.” If Jesus is asking that we be one even as he is one; then are we to believe that we too are God. Of course no one believes that. Paul, in writing about Jesus and Apollos and himself said the he who watered and he who planted were one. Does anyone think Paul and Apollos are the same person. The same logic is not being given to all of the scripture. Various sides take various verses and make them into something they are not.

John 1:1 which says, and the Word was God is used again as proof from all sides; however a clean translation would read and God was the Word. However; even if we leave it as it is; it is referring to Creation where God the Father spoke everything into existence using words. The words were God’s words; but there is a lot more to God than His words. In John 1 John is referring to creation and to the spoken word of God. It is not until the 14th verse that the Word is made flesh and dwells among us. John 8:42 are more words of Jesus explaining this very thought further as he says; “for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself; but he sent me.” He goes on in verse 43 to say the reason he is not understood is because people will not hear his words.

We read in scripture that Jesus was tempted in all points as are we but without sin. Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness but also in all points as are we. This is not inferred, it is scripture. The book of James teaches that when we are tempted we should not say we are tempted of God; because God cannot be tempted with evil and neither does he tempt any man. All have reasons why this is not the case; but it is what the scripture explicitly says. The Jesus name folks say Jesus was the fleshly God so he could be tempted; but the scripture does not say this. The trinitarians have their own explanation; but I have to ask what is wrong with just believing what it expressly written. If God cannot be tempted and Jesus was tempted; how, sticking just to scripture, can he be God?

I know Thomas said my Lord and my God and I also know the correct translation is the Lord of me and the God of me; and I know the translated word can be used in many ways; but maybe Thomas was just saying how he felt. Because Thomas thought Jesus was God does not make it so anymore than the angels who followed Lucifer made him God.

I have to ask what is so wrong with the words of Paul recorded in 1 Corinthians 8:6 which read; “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” What changes in our belief if we follow this passage word for word? Jesus is still the Son of God. It is through him that we find the Father. It is through him we are reconciled to God and it is through his life we are saved. If we follow the true teaching of the scripture then the ministry of Jesus is one which leads us to the Father who is our God and Jesus’ God according to scripture. If we believe any other way we run the danger of thinking Jesus is all we need and we neglect or discount the Father.

And 1 Corinthians 15:28 is very clear if we believe it without explanation. It read as follows; “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

For me; this study took years. One of the flaws of most studies are people who want all the answers right now. Sometimes the question is what drives us into further study. We should desire the truth no matter what that truth is and a quick study does not always lead to truth; but a quick study can back up a preconceived doctrine.

[Admin]

I agree with most of what you say here and do not necessarily disagree with any of it, exempt that I do not fully know what you might believe about some of the more brief things you touched on.

Its really simple. God is the Father and the Father made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Today he is at God’s right hand and God has put all things into his hands so that all will be put under him. When this has been done, then all will be subject to God so that he can dwell in all.

You rightly say that Jesus is the son and the Spirit exactly as it is written, the Spirit of God. The Spirit is often compared to a ray of the sun. A sun’s ray is still part of the sun and the essence of the sun, but it is given out and received by other things.

This is why it says that God will dwell in all things. He dwells in things by his Spirit.

[Oneway]

I appreciate your reply to my comment. I would like to add; if I may, my belief that this is a site used for the glory of God and for the encouragement of fellow believers. I have, over the years, found the traditional teachings to not be what I once thought they were. Some of the studies have taken me to places where I thought no one else had gone. To read someone else who believes in the absolute simplicity of a gospel message without the entanglements of man’s traditions is truly refreshing. To know I am not alone in my beliefs about who God is and who the Son is as well as other topics found here like the truth about hell is an encouragement. God is truly pouring out His Spirit today to those whose eyes are open and whose ears are eager to hear the truth. I have read on this site for over a year but made no comments until today. I hope to be more active in the future; but wanted to thank you for what you are doing here.

I have had many conversations over the years from people so willing to tell me how closed minded I am for not being convinced they are right and who condemn me to hell or even feel sorry for me for my heresies. I just wanted to tell you I believe in what you are doing and thank you.

[Admin]

Thanks heaps Oneway. I do get quite a bit of encouragement from people who feel exactly the same way you do. I always think of Elijah who thought he was the only one left holding to the truth, yet there are many people out there like us. The problem is that they are often isolated within a sea of tradition. But even many caught up in the traditions know that something is not right.

On the other-hand, I also get plenty of opposition, even from those who think they are doing God a favour. I remember myself when I believed in the Trinity (without question) debating someone who did not believe it. My responses were typical. All extra-biblical stuff with the odd scripture thrown in that could be twisted that way.

But as time moved on and I was obviously serious about pleasing God, he showed to me that this doctrine was wrong. I felt the Spirit of God in me not agreeing with the doctrine. So I questioned it and didn’t really get any satisfactory answers from others. I then ignored this for about 10 years because it seemed like a huge thing to tackle. I did this until I could take it no more and finally revisited the subject.

I decided to do a writing on it and look at all the scriptures pertaining to it. I came up with this Trinity Writing and then put it online. I felt at that time that God didn’t want me to share this with anyone because most were not ready and also I think God wanted me to understand this more. But he allowed me to put it on the Net around the year 2000 and I believe this was because the Net is basically a place where people search for things and as we know, seek and you will find.

I decided that if the writing was refuted, then I would apologize and preach the Trinity more than anyone. I only needed to see scripture teach it and for the scriptures that I quoted to not contradict it. I was absolutely honest in my endevour. But the opposition never gave me one good reason to believe it, even to this day. So the writing remains and I add to it on a regular basis.

On the forum, we had people debate us for over a decade and they made us look at every thing about it and every scripture. This only made myself and others stronger as we could see that every time, the Most High was the Father and that Jesus was absolutely without a doubt the son of that God and the begotten of God. In the end, the main group left when they had run out of ideas on how to disprove what we were saying. And they didn’t leave us with any doubt about it. I think in hindsight it looked like we were better at debating this subject, but that wasn’t the case at all as some of them were very good debaters. It really just boils down to this. Defending the truth is much easier than defending a lie. When you defend a lie, it means you have to keep covering your butt as that opens up further contradictions. It also means that you cannot just repeat scripture innocently and you have to be careful about what you discuss too. Whereas I felt that I could be honest and speak any scripture and talk about any subject in scripture because I was confident that there was no contradiction in the truth that the Father was the one true God. After all, Jesus did say, “No one comes to the Father but by me”. So it is really about coming to the Father through the one whom he sent. And this one whom he sent is the best Lord you could have as he calls us brothers.

May you be richly blessed and encouraged in our Lord Jesus Christ.

[DavidL]

If the Bible is NOT the inspired and infallible Word of God…but has, over time, become corrupted by biased “Trinitarian” translators (as you teach on this site) – then you must put your trust in the teaching and logic of “men” instead..
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As for me I Believe that the Word of God has been upheld down through the ages by the God of Scripture (if God is all-powerful and upholds all things according to His Word, then it is a small thing for me to accept that He has preserved His Word for us to completely depend on)..
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I also note that it was Satan’s ploy from the very beginning to instill doubt concerning what God had spoken..leading people away from the truth and into a way that seemed right, according to their own understanding, but the end thereof was and is the ways of death…

[Admin]

Perhaps you missed it David. In an earlier post to you, I defended this very thing. I will reword it for you.

1) Bibles do have differences and some of those differences are significant.
2) But the Bible has more textual references than any other writing in history, so it is easy to pick out the majority of mistakes and corruptions. It requires a good study in the scriptures and to not rely on any one translation or text. Think about it, translators rely on a number of texts in their translations for good reason.

God has seen to it that we have enough to be able to foil the work of corrupted translators or even the mistakes of translators which we know exist. We even have the most significant set of texts which are the oldest and written in a number of languages, the Dead Sea Scrolls.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not
to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Finally notice this warning in Revelation. It would not be there if it were not possible for some to corrupt the scriptures with their biased versions.

Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Finally you believe that the JW translation is biased and has error. So why wouldn’t other versions be subject to the same thing. If you think that is the only one, then you are being naive.

If you trust every word of the translator then your trust is in man. Study, compare, be open minded to the truth. The treasure is there for those who dig.

[Becky]

Wondering,

Through out your entire speech you are very inspiring. It matters not trinitarian or Arian. But then in the end you judge JW by saying they don’t have the spirit or the power of god. Really are you a JW? How would you know? Why are all denominations okay but them? That way of thinking and judging another for their religion foes not remind me of Christ’s teaching. I may not be a JW but find this treatment of a fellow man very upsetting.

[DavidL]

you quote 1 John 4..test the spirits..but you don’t follow through with John’s prescribed method of testing the spirits – instead you pronounce your own rationale that, God never contradicts Scripture…and of course to you the idea of Jesus as God creates a little havoc with your intellect – but DOES it contradict Scripture..?? or is it really the fact that God understandably MUST contradict our human logic – or else He wouldn’t be God..!!
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The idea of the Trinity is not that Jesus actually is the very God He is the Son of..but that as the Son of God He is equal to, and One with, God the Father..
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No one can fully understand God (or the Godhead), but to me I see the three members of the Godhead as separate entities, yet all with the same perfect will..they abide together in perfect harmony, complete trust, and in eternal covenant.. to do only the absolute will of the Father..
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I believe Jesus is the Son of God…and as the Son He is equal to God the Father – why else does He now sit at the right hand of the Father..? Why else would we want to worship Him, if He is not God..!?

[DavidL]

I believe my Bible when it says, The Word Was God..and for your information I have not just picked out one to suit my own preconceived ideas of Jesus (which is obviously the very reason WHY the Jehovah’s Witnesses Bible, that you somehow have thought prudent to use as a valid example, is the only one rejected as a genuine translation)..
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Do you think that it is just my own Bible that interprets John 1:1 this way..?? Maybe you’ve become a little too comfortable in your own conceit..and have forgotten that really you would be stretched to find ANY translation (apart from the JW’s one you quote) that contradicts this wording of John’s Gospel..
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So you ask me if I’m honest enough with myself to conclude that the Word couldn’t actually be the person of God, because…if the Word was WITH God, then how could He actually BE God at the same time..?
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Well – have you ever considered that maybe God is One Being made up of Three Identities..??
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Have a look at Genesis 1 (where John 1:1 comes from), in verse 26 we read, “And God said, Let US make man in OUR image..”
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One God – using plural terms for Himself…but which fits EXACTLY with, “..the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.”..
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If this is not sufficient in itself to convince you, then consider Jesus’ own words to the Pharisees, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” Here Jesus uses the very Name of the Father as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, to which the Pharisees sought to put Him to death for blasphemy – it is so obvious..!!
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Yet (if you believe the things taught on this site), I imagine you have been given many doubtful ideas concerning these and other verses that relate to the Deity of Christ… but, consider again one last Scripture in the book of Revelation (1:8) where Jesus openly declares, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
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These verses alone are ample evidence for me to accept that Jesus is One with God..and that He has preserved His own Word today in a way that is entirely trustworthy and 100% completely dependable – just as it was for Jesus in His day.. (which means for me that I do not need to be chasing a lot of extra-Biblical study into translations and translators)…hence the words – END OF STORY..!!

[Becky]

As far as john 1:1 I would suggest looking it up in a linear bible. Both place that the word god comes up are spelled different but translated as god. If they were both the almighty wouldn’t they have the same spelling? Just something to think about.

[DavidL]

Everyone knows that the JW’s Bible is rejected for changing Scripture to suit their own (Unitarian) beliefs..thus they have rendered their version completely useless to anyone accept those within their own church cult..(it even FEELS uninspired and dead..!!)
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They have changed John 1:1 to say “a god” – BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU YOURSELF ARE DOING..and it is for this very reason that I reject your teachings as completely deceptive..
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You say I am naive to think that our Scripture has not been corrupted – but Scripture is NOT corrupted…rather it is YOU that is attempting to corrupt the Scriptures, by introducing your own misguided ideas of God, based on the thoughts of uninspired philosophers…and NOT according to the revealed truth of Scripture itself..
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The Apostle Paul warns, “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority.”
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We are directly warned in Scripture NOT to believe the deceitful and philosophical teachings of people like yourself..who deny the authority of God’s Word (saying it is corrupted) and who place their own carnal thoughts above the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God. Paul says we are complete in Christ AND THAT THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELLS IN THE BODILY FORM OF JESUS CHRIST…
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You quote the curses Scripture places on those that would add or take away from it, yet you are the very one who is bringing upon himself these curses – reminding me of the verse, “If there is such a person, when he hears the words of this curse, he will bless himself secretly, saying to himself, ‘I will be all right, even though I will stubbornly keep doing whatever I feel like doing; so that I, although “dry,” [sinful,] will be added to the “watered” [righteous].'” – Deuteronomy 29:19

[2besee]

Becky,
You “find my words about the JWs very upsetting”? That they deny the power of God?
I have entertained the JWs half of my life, invited them into my home, chatted every week, etc, and I tell you – they DENY THE POWER of God.
Tell them something God has done (healing etc) and they will say Satan does the same, and God doesn’t do that anymore. That is denying the power of God, of which Paul told us to stay away from them! They also deny the person of the Holy Spirit. So yes, treat them kindly and love thy neighbor. But stay away from their materials! They are all brainwashed, and follow men. That is the modern day Arianism.

[2besee]

David,
The teachings here are “Arian”, not “Unitarian”. There is a difference.

Becky,
Regarding the JWs denial of the power of the Holy Spirit – Read what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 12.

T8,
There are three.
God.. The Eternal Spirit..and Christ. (Hebrews 9:14).

[Becky]

Matthew 24:24 says that “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, all shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the every elect. (KJV) Doesn’t that say that others will be able to perform miracles that are not from God. And 1 John 4:1 says “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV) Doesn’t this also say that things could from satan and not God. If you go further in the next chapter it also states that that whoever confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God . JW confess this. Wouldn’t that mean that they are also of God. I Would also like to ask you to show a scripture where the Holy Spirit is a person because you kind of lost me there.

[Anonymous]

Hi David,

I’ve been busy on the forum, and haven’t been following this part of the site. I’ve missed a couple of your responses.

You said: and of course to you the idea of Jesus as God creates a little havoc with your intellect – but DOES it contradict Scripture..?? or is it really the fact that God understandably MUST contradict our human logic – or else He wouldn’t be God..!!

Absolutely it contradicts scripture. Are you saying that we have but ONE Almighty God, and Jesus is both Him AND His Son? BTW, your comment about God having to contradict our human logic is bizarre, and the same kind of twisted things Trinitarians have been saying for hundreds of years. If God gave us the Bible so we can learn about Him, then why wouldn’t He count on us using our God-given common sense to understand that Bible? Why would He call Jesus His SON – knowing full well how we as humans understand father/son relationships? Do you think God thought: I know humans understand that sons are completely different BEINGS than their fathers, but I’m going to call my “co-God” Jesus my Son anyway – just to mess with their heads?

[Anonymous]

David, you said: I believe Jesus is the Son of God…

And just how many Gods do you think we have? One, right? So is Jesus the Son of HIMSELF?

Notice that Jesus is never called “The Son of the Father entity of the Godhead”. Instead, he is called the Son of “God” – period.

If he is the Son of the one and only Most High God, then he can’t possibly BE the one and only Most High God. This, to me, seems to be simple God-given common sense.

[Admin]

Even worse than that Mike is that this confusion and babble is a salvation issue for many of the proponents of this. Basically the message is, ‘believe that Jesus is the son of God, and God that he is the son of, and if you don’t believe this extra-biblical creed which isn’t explicitly taught in scripture, then you are put on a roast spit and barbecued forever’. How did this all go so wrong.

The reality is the Trinity Doctrine is by shear definition, an oxymoron, That really means we have to become moronic to accept this as the foundation of true faith. Especially considering that the true faith and foundation of the Church is clearly explained in scripture. Yet for some reason the true foundation is not good enough for them. In addition, we must accept their meta-physical oxymoronic creed too or be damned.

[Anonymous]

David said: I believe my Bible when it says, The Word Was God..and for your information I have not just picked out one to suit my own preconceived ideas of Jesus (which is obviously the very reason WHY the Jehovah’s Witnesses Bible, that you somehow have thought prudent to use as a valid example, is the only one rejected as a genuine translation)…………

I really wish you would come discuss some of these things on the forum part of this site, David. It is easier to post and follow the discussion over there, IMO.

I wonder if you realize that even the staunchest Trinitarian scholars acknowledge that “the Word was a god” is one of the possible translations of John 1:1. Do you know that?

Also, on the forum part of the site, there is a thread where I’ve challenged anyone and everyone to show me one scripture where the NWT has totally dropped the ball, and translated in a way that the Hebrew or Greek words can’t possibly be translated. That thread has been there for over a year now, and we haven’t got one such scripture thus far. So you should either put your money where your mouth is when slamming the NWT – or just jump off that particularly popular bandwagon altogether.

In other words, you saying that the NWT is “rejected as a genuine translation” by a bunch of confused Trinitarians isn’t really worth much unless you put your money where your mouth is and SHOW US some good reasons it should be rejected.

Please go one single verse at a time. I will do my best to check back here so we can discuss your first verse.

[Anonymous]

David asked: Well – have you ever considered that maybe God is One Being made up of Three Identities..??…………………
Why then doesn’t John 1:1 say the Word was with God AND WITH GOD? 🙂

Wouldn’t Jesus as the Word have been with both the Father AND the Holy Spirit “persons of the Godhead”? Why was he with just one of them? And which one was he with in the beginning? The Holy Spirit person? Or the Father person? And how would you know from the wording which one he was with?

Also, the Word ended up becoming flesh. Is God a man? Does God change? Scriptures say “NO” to both of these things.

[Author]

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