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Thanks for your input Mike.
1 Timothy 5:21
“I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels”.
Is this another Godhead working together DavidL?The problem does not come from saying Jesus is Lord; but from saying he is God. In John 13:13-16 Jesus himself claims to be both master and Lord but goes on to teach that the servant is not greater than his lord and the one sent is not greater than the one who was sent.
There is no agreement between Trinitarian teachers on even what the term means. DavidL uses Jesus saying Before Abraham was I AM to teach that Jesus is God but that would be teaching that Jesus is Jehovah which would not mean three persons who make up one God but One God who makes up three persons which is modalism.
One must also ask to whom does one pray and to whom is our worship given. Jesus himself taught in John 16:23-28 that after his death and resurrection we would no longer ask him anything but rather would ask the Father in the name of Jesus. In Revelation 19:10 John was told to worship God for the testimony of Jesus Christ. We pray to the Father and we worship the Father. Belief in a separate Father and Son and Holy Ghost does not make one a Trinitarian; but a believer in scripture. Believing they are all One in substance makes one a Trinitarian.
So the answer to the question what Christian opposes that Jesus is the Son of God would be that in one way none do. The opposition comes from those who are not satisfied with what is in the scripture and want to make more of it than is there. They will claim heresy on the part of one who simply believes Jesus is the Son of God and Lord of our lives and do not make the leap to him also being God. In my opinion; what is expressly written in scripture should be enough.
Jesus is God – John 1:1 declares it..!!
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you quote outside of Scripture to deny what Scripture says, then have the audacity to say that what you believe is Scriptural..?!To deny the Holy Spirit over your so-called ‘common sense’ is the reason why we have so much confusion today..!!
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If the Word is Holy Spirit ‘inspired’ then it should make ‘sense’ to trust the Holy Spirit for our understanding of it..
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When John said to Test the spirits he didn’t say ‘test the doctrine’ (that’s all the Pharisees did) – to test the spirits is in itself a spiritual exercise……something that is spiritually discerned…
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“The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned ONLY through the Spirit.” – 1 Corinthians 2:14A wake up call..?? Huh – you are so presumptuous..!! I woke up along time ago to the doctrines and creeds of man – which is EXACTLY why I don’t accept YOUR teachings…you just present to us more theological rubbish…!!!
I trust in the Word of God – you say you do too, but the evidence you present shows that you put a lot of credence in the philosophical thinking of scientific men..which then allows you to start dissecting the Scriptures to suit your own preconceived ideas of what you think they should say (the same error as the cults – and the reason they ARE cults…they deny the authority, and usurp the work of the Holy Spirit)..
Yes – ‘moronic’ to all you high-minded know-it-alls…but in despising this you only confirm the truth of it more, because God has chosen what is foolish to the world to shame human wisdom…
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unfortunately by your own perceived intellect (like the learned Pharisees of old), you too have become blinded to the simple realities revealed in God’s Word..truths that are easily accepted by those whose child-like faith enables them to simply trust and depend on God alone for guidance and understanding..that was all wondering said to me t8…
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you say Scripture is my witness – but you are like a blind man saying, I can see..!!!David, after a quick skip through your latest posts, I can see that all you actually have are opinions mixed with passion, but no substance to what you say.
A person serious about the truth and what scripture says, needs more than that. Anyone can spout opinions, but reasoning from the scriptures and rightly dividing the word of God takes more than opinion.
Personally I think you are way out of your depth here, and while people are allowed opinions, they shouldn’t teach them as truth, but should rely on scripture.
The Dark Ages was a time when men had so-called truth which was really opinion and superstition, and heaps of passion. The result was one of the greatest persecutions against the saints. Millions were killed for not adhering to the creeds of Rome and superstitions of men.
The truth never bears this kind of fruit and the fruit we see from this type of thing is the worse fruit you can imagine. But know this, bad fruit suggests a bad root. But the truth will set you free. Jesus places no heavy burden on you, his yoke is easy and light. Simplicity in Christ is a child-like faith in him. But once you start preaching a meta-physical gospel, then all that simplicity is gone.I think it would be true to say that if one had the Spirit of God, then they would believe and trust in Jesus’s following words:
“This is eternal life, that you may know the one true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent.”
Eternal life is important to me as it is for you, and I trust these words of my saviour. So why argue against this? What profit do you expect to receive. My argue against eternal life, if this is eternal life?
Further, if John 1:1 is your cornerstone verse for the Trinity, then it is inadequate for the following reasons.
1) THE Word was theos has three possible ways to be translated.
2) The so-called third member of the Trinity isn’t mentioned, thus this so-called Trinity verse at best (for you) teaches a Binity.
3) The Word was WITH God means what it says. It doesn’t say that the Word was WITH the Father, but God. Thus a simple read of the text demonstrates that God is the Father in John 1:1. So the Word was THE God translation is clearly not the right option. And for other reasons it is not either. The Word was divine or qualitatively God is a better option and it answers to the verse that says, “although he existed in the FORM of God…”
But because of your biased option, I can see clearly the contradiction you have. Maybe you cannot see it, but as I said before, I believe you are out of your depth in this discussion.ok – rather than getting into a boring debate over Greek grammar…(even though translators who have a mastery of koinie Greek state that there are many scholarly works that can be cited to show why the phrase Theos en ho logos is correctly translated “The Word was God”) but – let’s say, for arguments sake (and remember we are wanting to distinguish between ‘argument’ and ‘truth’) lets say you are right and this is a possible way to interpret John 1:1..
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But now we need to test if this is the TRUE way to interpret John 1:1, and seeing that you are so willing to DEFEND this one translation (that contradicts all others)…are you just as willing then to actually BELIEVE what it says…??
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Are you saying then Mike, that “..the word was a god.” ???
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See, it’s one thing to attack what someone else openly believes (even when it’s simply believing Scripture) – but…if you according to your wisdom are going to change this verse and use a questionable translation to do that, then, more than just denying how John 1:1 is translated – you need to make your own position clear in this ..if Jesus did not preexist with God – AS GOD…(as all Bibles except one agree)…then WHAT did He preexist as..? An Angel..??
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If this interpretation is true (as you imply by your defense of NWT) then HOW did He exist WITH God – as ‘a god’…(if there is only One God)???
What are YOU actually saying is the truth here…???David,
You said the “you have become blinded by the simple realities”If they were that simple conversations like this would not happen. There are scriptures like 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, and 1 Timothy 2:5 that say there is one God. Those first two scriptures even go as far as says that that one God is the Father. That sounds pretty simple to me. There is one god and he is the father.
Thanks Becky. Your post is pretty clear and straightforward.
Further, the New Testamant has phrases like this:
Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
And many of Paul’s letters start like this:
“Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
The true confession regarding Jesus, is that he is Lord and all will get around to confessing that one way or another. Best to start now though.
🙂Davidl, Jesus said, “ye are theos”. What can be more simple than that?
If I believed that men could become God, then I could use your exact argument and phrases to support that view.
John 1:1 is not that simple. Other scriptures are very simple and straightforward, but John 1:1 is not one of those.
And choosing the option that contradicts all the simple clear verses DavidL, is reckless IMO.
Scripture judges scripture. If there are options, then the rest of scripture will tell you which option is correct. It will never be the option that contradicts clear and indisputable verses.
“For us, there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.”In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes…
you rely on your own logic – but it is this logic that brings confusion..we are to understand Scripture according to the simple revelation of the Holy Spirit..which reveals to us, just as it did to the apostles, and Thomas.. Jesus is both Lord and God.
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This does not contradict Scripture – only your human logic.
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