What is Man?

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,06:27)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,01:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08) Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance. Nick, Again you try to keep saying the scriptures don't mean what they say.  Here is another one for you to refute: Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. You going to still refute the Word of God? Paul Hi trettep, In context:Gal 3.23f-4.7 ” But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female;for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the Father. So also we, while we are children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of this world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying 'Abba!Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God” So who is this written primarily to? The Jews as they are those under the Law and gentiles are outside the Law. They are those who inherit the promise as do gentiles in Jesus. When was the Spirit sent into the hearts of the sons of God? In the fullness of time when God sent His Son into the world. So did Adam share the Spirit in this way? No. It was not the fullness of time. It is not your judgement that concerns me trettep.

Its your judgement that concerns me Nick. You just condemned many ancestors including Noah, Enoch, Shem, and Adam.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Now can you find where Noah is said to have the Holy Spirit? Can you? So based on Joh 3:5 would you say that he is not going to enter into the Kingdom of God? How about the others?

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:04)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul Hi trettep, Gen 1.31 ” God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good” Not perfect. Very good. Where does it say “perfect”? I would like to gain this knowledge which you say I lack. I will believe that Adam had the Holy Spirit as soon as you can show me that it is written. What works of righteousness did this “spiritual” man do? You must know of some to make this statement surely? Actually scripture does not say he was a spiritual man but a natural man, and earthy man. 1Cor 15.45 ” So it is written 'The first man Adam became a living soul' The last Adam became a life giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the NATURAL:then the spiritual.THE FIRST MAN IS FROM THE EARTH, EARTHY: the second man is from heaven. As is the EARTHY, so also are those who are earthy;and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the EARTHY, we will also bear the image of the heavenly”

Nick,

“good” is perfect – from God.

Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Is the Light not “perfect” either?

This a flaw you seem to have Nick. You think God can do imperfection.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:08)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18) Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul No trettep, I do not deny the Word of God. I deny your speculations and teachings which do not line up with the Word of God in my view. As usual you seem to show yourself as unteachable and intransigient in your views and we again have to agree to disagree..OK?

Nick,

You did deny it. You denied the verses said what they said. You didn't say you didn't understand them or know their meaning. You attacked the credibility of the verses saying they couldn't be so. Here, I am giving you very useful instruction on the topic and points to consider. You don't reply with any refutable verses that are strong enough to counter the verses I supplied. You then get mad and discounted the very verses I gave you and said they didn't say what they said. That is denial!

Now, I don't know your motives Nick but if you don't like me and therefore attack the Truth – do you think your doing yourself good? Would you let your dislike for someone fester up inside you and commit you to argue against the Word of God? I sure hope that is not the case. If you truely wish to learn Nick then you need to re-evaluate your acceptance of the Truth! You can dislike me all you want – I'm very use to it. If I disliked you Nick – which I don't, – I would never let you cause me to sin or error against the Truth. I say it because I care. I don't understand your motives otherwise – maybe your trying to protect what you know and because I posted something that counters it – you therefore attack it instead of investigating it. I'm not sure. You must always accept the Truth and not just when its convienient for you.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,09:32)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18) Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul Hi trettep, Tit 1.10f-2.1 ” For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers….To the pure all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed But for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.” You say these words apply to me? Perhaps you know me or my fruit to say such things? Surely you would not apply those verses to me on the basis of my words alone? On the basis of my honest search for biblically supportable doctrine rather than vain speculation and personal spiritual revelation? Clearly you have great personal confidence in your own standing before God to make such judgements. God bless you trettep.

Nick,

 You arguing with yourself as I never wrote all the rest of those verses.  I also don't believe the rest of those fitting to you either.  Look at my post you will see I only said your state reminds me of one verse in that chapter:

Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

That is only 1 verse.  I then I said you remind me of that verse.  I believe you to profess that you know God and I have observed you deny him (The Word of God).  As for the rest of that verse – I know not wether those things be applicable to you.

Also, Nick – I observed those things I mentioned and have been instructed by the Word of God to rebuke those that do such (and I have and am doing so). I also desire that someone rebuke me in the same manner. Rebuke is an act of love. When one puts their hand on the burner – the pain is their friend to save the hand. Now if this rebuke causes you grief then you understand not that I'm trying to keep you from denying the Truth.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,13:05)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:04) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul Hi trettep, Gen 1.31 ” God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good” Not perfect. Very good. Where does it say “perfect”? I would like to gain this knowledge which you say I lack. I will believe that Adam had the Holy Spirit as soon as you can show me that it is written. What works of righteousness did this “spiritual” man do? You must know of some to make this statement surely? Actually scripture does not say he was a spiritual man but a natural man, and earthy man. 1Cor 15.45 ” So it is written 'The first man Adam became a living soul' The last Adam became a life giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the NATURAL:then the spiritual.THE FIRST MAN IS FROM THE EARTH, EARTHY: the second man is from heaven. As is the EARTHY, so also are those who are earthy;and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the EARTHY, we will also bear the image of the heavenly” Nick,  “good” is perfect – from God.   Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Is the Light not “perfect” either? This a flaw you seem to have Nick.  You think God can do imperfection. Paul

Hi trettep,
Clearly you are unaware that God has defined three standards in scripture and “good” does not mean “perfect”

Rom 12.1f
” Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is
that which
is GOOD
and ACCEPTABLE
and PERFECT.”

Jesus was truly humble of heart and though he was the Holy one of God said of the Father

” there is only One who is good”

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,13:20)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:08) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18) Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul No trettep, I do not deny the Word of God. I deny your speculations and teachings which do not line up with the Word of God in my view. As usual you seem to show yourself as unteachable and intransigient in your views and we again have to agree to disagree..OK? Nick, You did deny it.  You denied the verses said what they said.  You didn't say you didn't understand them or know their meaning.  You attacked the credibility of the verses saying they couldn't be so.  Here, I am giving you very useful instruction on the topic and points to consider.  You don't reply with any refutable verses that are strong enough to counter the verses I supplied.  You then get mad and discounted the very verses I gave you and said they didn't say what they said.  That is denial!   Now, I don't know your motives Nick but if you don't like me and therefore attack the Truth – do you think your doing yourself good?  Would you let your dislike for someone fester up inside you and commit you to argue against the Word of God?  I sure hope that is not the case.  If you truely wish to learn Nick then you need to re-evaluate your acceptance of the Truth!  You can dislike me all you want – I'm very use to it.  If I disliked you Nick – which I don't, – I would never let you cause me to sin or error against the Truth.  I say it because I care.  I don't understand your motives otherwise – maybe your trying to protect what you know and because I posted something that counters it – you therefore attack it instead of investigating it.  I'm not sure.  You must always accept the Truth and not just when its convienient for you. Paul

Hi trettep,
You seem to define TRUTH as yourself and take personally any suggestion that such is not the case.
I have no reason to dislike you or even get angry with you and I am sure if you reread my posts my only problem is your loose and cavalier attitude to scripture and your need to teach when you yet have so much to learn.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,20:33)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,13:05) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:04) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul Hi trettep, Gen 1.31 ” God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good” Not perfect. Very good. Where does it say “perfect”? I would like to gain this knowledge which you say I lack. I will believe that Adam had the Holy Spirit as soon as you can show me that it is written. What works of righteousness did this “spiritual” man do? You must know of some to make this statement surely? Actually scripture does not say he was a spiritual man but a natural man, and earthy man. 1Cor 15.45 ” So it is written 'The first man Adam became a living soul' The last Adam became a life giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the NATURAL:then the spiritual.THE FIRST MAN IS FROM THE EARTH, EARTHY: the second man is from heaven. As is the EARTHY, so also are those who are earthy;and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the EARTHY, we will also bear the image of the heavenly” Nick,  “good” is perfect – from God.   Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. Is the Light not “perfect” either? This a flaw you seem to have Nick.  You think God can do imperfection. Paul Hi trettep, Clearly you are unaware that God has defined three standards in scripture and “good” does not mean “perfect” Rom 12.1f ” Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is that which is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE and PERFECT.” Jesus was truly humble of heart and though he was the Holy one of God said of the Father ” there is only One who is good”

No Nick – your wrong! There is only one outcome of what God does and that is perfection. Those words are ALL describing God's will.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,20:39)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,13:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:08) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18) Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul No trettep, I do not deny the Word of God. I deny your speculations and teachings which do not line up with the Word of God in my view. As usual you seem to show yourself as unteachable and intransigient in your views and we again have to agree to disagree..OK? Nick, You did deny it.  You denied the verses said what they said.  You didn't say you didn't understand them or know their meaning.  You attacked the credibility of the verses saying they couldn't be so.  Here, I am giving you very useful instruction on the topic and points to consider.  You don't reply with any refutable verses that are strong enough to counter the verses I supplied.  You then get mad and discounted the very verses I gave you and said they didn't say what they said.  That is denial!   Now, I don't know your motives Nick but if you don't like me and therefore attack the Truth – do you think your doing yourself good?  Would you let your dislike for someone fester up inside you and commit you to argue against the Word of God?  I sure hope that is not the case.  If you truely wish to learn Nick then you need to re-evaluate your acceptance of the Truth!  You can dislike me all you want – I'm very use to it.  If I disliked you Nick – which I don't, – I would never let you cause me to sin or error against the Truth.  I say it because I care.  I don't understand your motives otherwise – maybe your trying to protect what you know and because I posted something that counters it – you therefore attack it instead of investigating it.  I'm not sure.  You must always accept the Truth and not just when its convienient for you. Paul Hi trettep, You seem to define TRUTH as yourself and take personally any suggestion that such is not the case. I have no reason to dislike you or even get angry with you and I am sure if you reread my posts my only problem is your loose and cavalier attitude to scripture and your need to teach when you yet have so much to learn.

No Nick, God manifested the Truth in Jesus Christ who is the Word of God. The very thing that you put no trust in. For if you had you would have revered the very verses that I presented to you and investigated those things whether what they said was true instead of saying that what clearly is said it not so.

Additionally, I humble myself and admit when I error and give others thanks for showing me the Truth – something you should take note of.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=50

You should do the same to thank others for showing you the truth. Its easy to get exhalted by the truth and everyone needs humility.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,12:56)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,06:27) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,01:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08) Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance. Nick, Again you try to keep saying the scriptures don't mean what they say.  Here is another one for you to refute: Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. You going to still refute the Word of God? Paul Hi trettep, In context:Gal 3.23f-4.7 ” But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female;for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the Father. So also we, while we are children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of this world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying 'Abba!Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God” So who is this written primarily to? The Jews as they are those under the Law and gentiles are outside the Law. They are those who inherit the promise as do gentiles in Jesus. When was the Spirit sent into the hearts of the sons of God? In the fullness of time when God sent His Son into the world. So did Adam share the Spirit in this way? No. It was not the fullness of time. It is not your judgement that concerns me trettep. Its your judgement that concerns me Nick.  You just condemned many ancestors including Noah, Enoch, Shem, and Adam. Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Now can you find where Noah is said to have the Holy Spirit?  Can you?  So based on Joh 3:5 would you say that he is not going to enter into the Kingdom of God?  How about the others? Paul

Hi trettep,
I am sure you know that Lk 16.16 says
“the Law and the prophets were proclaimed until the time of John;since then the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone in forcing his way into it”
And
Jn 3.5 tells how to enter this kingdom
” ..Truly ,truly ,I say to you,unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
And
Hebrews 11 speaks of all the men of old, including those you mentioned, being justified by Faith, then it says
“And all these , having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect”

So it does not say Noah and the others had the Holy Spirit. Are they one in the Spirit with us now? Yes but they had to wait to be joined with us.

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,21:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,20:39) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,13:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,08:08) Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18) Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul No trettep, I do not deny the Word of God. I deny your speculations and teachings which do not line up with the Word of God in my view. As usual you seem to show yourself as unteachable and intransigient in your views and we again have to agree to disagree..OK? Nick, You did deny it.  You denied the verses said what they said.  You didn't say you didn't understand them or know their meaning.  You attacked the credibility of the verses saying they couldn't be so.  Here, I am giving you very useful instruction on the topic and points to consider.  You don't reply with any refutable verses that are strong enough to counter the verses I supplied.  You then get mad and discounted the very verses I gave you and said they didn't say what they said.  That is denial!   Now, I don't know your motives Nick but if you don't like me and therefore attack the Truth – do you think your doing yourself good?  Would you let your dislike for someone fester up inside you and commit you to argue against the Word of God?  I sure hope that is not the case.  If you truely wish to learn Nick then you need to re-evaluate your acceptance of the Truth!  You can dislike me all you want – I'm very use to it.  If I disliked you Nick – which I don't, – I would never let you cause me to sin or error against the Truth.  I say it because I care.  I don't understand your motives otherwise – maybe your trying to protect what you know and because I posted something that counters it – you therefore attack it instead of investigating it.  I'm not sure.  You must always accept the Truth and not just when its convienient for you. Paul Hi trettep, You seem to define TRUTH as yourself and take personally any suggestion that such is not the case. I have no reason to dislike you or even get angry with you and I am sure if you reread my posts my only problem is your loose and cavalier attitude to scripture and your need to teach when you yet have so much to learn. No Nick, God manifested the Truth in Jesus Christ who is the Word of God.  The very thing that you put no trust in.  For if you had you would have revered the very verses that I presented to you and investigated those things whether what they said was true instead of saying that what clearly is said it not so. Additionally, I humble myself and admit when I error and give others thanks for showing me the Truth – something you should take note of.   https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=50 You should do the same to thank others for showing you the truth.  Its easy to get exhalted by the truth and everyone needs humility.   Paul

Hi trettep,
I am a student and admit have much to learn. You set yourself up as a model of humility? Your own example in humility may be apparent to you but less obvious to us.

[trettep]

Nick,

I'm not sure who is “us” in your statement. I look out for humility and should also. I don't set myself up for a model of humility but I'm trying to as you should be also. You should be a model of everything that Jesus is. That is the purpose of man. Nick, for all I know God has hardened your heart to test me. Therefore, I better pass the test – likewise don't you think you be as wise in your perception of me?

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
We are only here to search out and share truth as we find it in the bible. There is always dross and we should expect it as we are all human. Perfection is not of our natural capacity and to strive for it in our own strength only leads to frustration.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,23:04)

Hi trettep, We are only here to search out and share truth as we find it in the bible. There is always dross and we should expect it as we are all human. Perfection is not of our natural capacity and to strive for it in our own strength only leads to frustration.

Nick,

Don't put obstacles in others way by telling them that the verses don't say what they do say. This is the purpose of rebuke – such that one will turn and move toward their hope of salvation and away from fullfilling the lusts of the flesh and other selfish desires.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08)

Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance.

trettep,
I would ask you to look again at what I said here if you love the Word as you claim you do and I do not. Take your time and please do not divert into bluster or accusation but honestly look at my reply and answer it line by line.

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 23 2005,00:02)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,23:04) Hi trettep, We are only here to search out and share truth as we find it in the bible. There is always dross and we should expect it as we are all human. Perfection is not of our natural capacity and to strive for it in our own strength only leads to frustration. Nick,  Don't put obstacles in others way by telling them that the verses don't say what they do say.  This is the purpose of rebuke – such that one will turn and move toward their hope of salvation and away from fullfilling the lusts of the flesh and other selfish desires. Paul

Hi Trettep,
Please tell me which scriptures I have denied and I will look at them again.

I do get tired of those who tell me a scripture means something and when I analyse it find that instead they have read between the lines and found meanings that are not stated. Then they attack me for not agreeing with them!

They have gone from faith into presumption or speculation.

Accuracy is essential as this is precious material not to be added to by man.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2005,00:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08) Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance. trettep, I would ask you to look again at what I said here if you love the Word as you claim you do and I do not. Take your time and please do not divert into bluster or accusation but honestly look at my reply and answer it line by line.

Nick,

Now your saying that Not all Sons of God have the Holy Spirit. Now your saying that not all who have the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

Think about that Nick.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2005,03:05)

Quote (trettep @ May 23 2005,00:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,23:04) Hi trettep, We are only here to search out and share truth as we find it in the bible. There is always dross and we should expect it as we are all human. Perfection is not of our natural capacity and to strive for it in our own strength only leads to frustration. Nick,  Don't put obstacles in others way by telling them that the verses don't say what they do say.  This is the purpose of rebuke – such that one will turn and move toward their hope of salvation and away from fullfilling the lusts of the flesh and other selfish desires. Paul Hi Trettep, Please tell me which scriptures I have denied and I will look at them again. I do get tired of those who tell me a scripture means something and when I analyse it find that instead they have read between the lines and found meanings that are not stated. Then they attack me for not agreeing with them! They have gone from faith into presumption or speculation. Accuracy is essential as this is precious material not to be added to by man.

Nick,

We are warned about people like you in the Bible. I have strongly rebuked you as I should. You have some problems that need to be addressed and I hope you do. I will be avoiding your forum until which time you can come back to Jesus and reverend the Word of God. But I can't help you further if you are going to distort the Word of God. I'm afraid that your intimidated in some manner by the knowledge given to me and its causing you to sin. Because I care for you I remove myself. I hope others reading this will come to your aid – maybe the barrier will be removed and they can reach out to you and give you the help you need.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 23 2005,03:19)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2005,00:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08) Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance. trettep, I would ask you to look again at what I said here if you love the Word as you claim you do and I do not. Take your time and please do not divert into bluster or accusation but honestly look at my reply and answer it line by line. Nick,  Now your saying that Not all Sons of God have the Holy Spirit.  Now your saying that not all who have the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. Think about that Nick. Paul

No trettep,
You tell me that is what the scriptures say and I show you it is not written as you expounded it and you get upset? I am using the very scripture you gave me and taught from, and yet you hate me for showing you it does not exactly say what you see there.

I am not denying that elsewhere in scripture it may even say exactly what you think this verse says[though I doubt it]. I am focussing on the verse you presented to see if it says exactly what you claim. You get angry when I say it doesn't and call all sorts of judgements and curses on my head. And it is my problem?

What is it about being wrong you cannot face trettep? Are you so perfect and have to be shown to be or your little world falls apart? Look at all you accuse others of in a mirror and you may see the answer.

Sadly it seems it is scripture which accuses you trettep and it is the Word of God you despise. You have accepted lies and cannot stand to have them challenged.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2005,03:46)

it is the Word of God you despise.

i dont think this is true or fair

[NickHassan]

You are quite right. I apologise for that comment as trettep does love the Word.

[Author]

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