What is Man?

[Cubes]

You have a point, trettep.

[Cubes]

The natural man does have an inclination to do the wrong thing, but can also do what is right… so I think you are both right, Nick and Trettep.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,21:36)

Hi trettep, The spirit of man is of godly origin just as this spirit of an animal is. Both come from the breath of God according to Genesis. It gives life in the inner man. James.2.26 “For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead” It is good.Sin comes from lust and lust is from the body. The outer man is of flesh, of earth-the realm of the serpent. James 1.13 ” Let no man say when he is tempted 'I am being tempted by God': for God cannot be tempted by evil and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust is conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death” Men are born into flesh and naturally prefer lust and they foul their cup with sin. But men must hear and respond to the message of salvation in their natural state. That requires the cooperation with the spirit of the inner man which came from God and knows it's origins. Then as Roman 8 16 says ” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God” Do you agree?

Nick,

I do not believe the current state of man is how man originated. I believe that man was made with the Holy Spirit (otherwise how could Adam know the Truth or the thoughts of God to follow them). I believe the Holy Spirit was no longer freely given after the fall of man.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
Do you have scriptural evidence from Genesis for this claim?

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit?

As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”.

I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40)

Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now.

Nick,

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:20)

Hi trettep, Do you have scriptural evidence from Genesis for this claim?

Of course see my last post.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
Of course Adam was a son of God. That is a natural fact. He had no other father.That does not say he had the Holy Spirit. We are sons of God by adoption not natural sons [except as sons of Adam].
If you are correct then in saying Adam was a son of God as he had the Spirit is to say we do not need the Spirit as we already have it too as sons of Adam and sons of God.
To take a new Testament scripture and apply it in retrospect to try to show Adam was a son of God by the Spirit is to twist scripture. It ignores the more obvious reason. It ignores the fact he always was a son of God.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,23:21)

Hi trettep, Of course Adam was a son of God. That is a natural fact. He had no other father.That does not say he had the Holy Spirit. We are sons of God by adoption not natural sons [except as sons of Adam]. If you are correct then in saying Adam was a son of God as he had the Spirit is to say we do not need the Spirit as we already have it too as sons of Adam and sons of God. To take a new Testament scripture and apply it in retrospect to try to show Adam was a son of God by the Spirit is to twist scripture. It ignores the more obvious reason. It ignores the fact he always was a son of God.

Nick,

I just gave you two verses that you are disputing from the Word of God. It clearly shows that Adam is a Son of God and that Sons of God are led by the Holy Spirit. Your not disputing me – your disputing the Word of God.

Additionally, this comment you stated:

“If you are correct then in saying Adam was a son of God as he had the Spirit is to say we do not need the Spirit as we already have it too as sons of Adam and sons of God.”

The Holy Spirit was NEVER something passed by natural means. Then you say I twist scripture because I applied a New Testament verse in retrospect. Lets look at the verse in question again:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

As I see that verse – it says that Adam is a Son of God. I didn't make it up – you will have to contend with it in your own Bible. If anyone applied the statement “Son of God” to “Adam” it was not me! It was the Word of God – you need to accept that! Maybe your uncomfortable with being refuted so clearly by the Word of God! Now lets look at the other verse:

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Now you say how can that be applied to Adam. Very simple – the verse I just quoted previously shows that Adam is a Son of God – and this verse says that Sons of God are those led by the Spirit of God. That is a very clear association. Don't you agree that Adam is a Son of God? Don't you agree that Sons of God are led by the Holy Spirit?

You are arguing against the Word of God! Trying to make them say them NOT say what they so clearly DO say!

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals?

James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God.
Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God. We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that does not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16)

Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God.

Nick,

I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge. For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case. I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong. For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God. For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness. Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain. You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness. My advice to you is to repent. I'm here to help if you desire.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul

Hi,
Does scripture say
” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No
Does scripture say
“all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No

Scripture says
“all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.”

So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning.

It does not.

Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels?

Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us.

You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08)

Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance.

Nick,

Again you try to keep saying the scriptures don't mean what they say. Here is another one for you to refute:

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

You going to still refute the Word of God?

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul

Hi,
I would love to hear from others on trettep's premise that

Adam was created perfect
And
Adam had the Holy Spirit.

Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.

[trettep]

Nick,

I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid.

Then you say:

“Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.”

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Nick – that verse reminds me of you. You are professing to know God but deny him. When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus. You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says. If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable. But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial.

Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it. If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault. Its your failure in understanding. The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.

Paul

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:49)

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul Hi, I would love to hear from others on trettep's premise that Adam was created perfect And Adam had the Holy Spirit. Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.

A correction for you Nick. I believe that Adam was created and walked perfect up until he disobeyed God.

I also believe that even now if someone has the Holy Spirit and willfully sins that they blasphemy the Holy Spirit and can be subject to Judgement. Therefore, unless there is a reconciliation (a covering) for the sin – Adam would be doomed eternally. But I believe that mankind will prevail and produce brethren for the Lord Jesus and more Children unto God and thus redeem Adam and Eve.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Notice that word “covered” above. Sins are not covered for those that have been Born Again – there sins are completely removed and forgotten. Sins are “covered” for those that cannot be forgiven of sins. That is what happens to those that blasphemy the Holy Spirit.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,01:43)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,01:08) Quote (trettep @ May 21 2005,23:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 21 2005,22:40) Hi trettep, We know from Genesis God commanded Adam and spoke to Adam. Adam knew who his father was and knew his Father. There is little evidence he knew the thoughts of God or followed those thoughts or instructions. Certainly it does not say man had the Holy Spirit. Instead we are compared with animals-both given life by the breath of God. Do you agree animals do not have the Holy Spirit? As Paul told the Athenians God is close to every man and Genesis says “the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters”.But scripture does not say man was made “with the Holy Spirit”. I believe Adam was like any natural man and had no inherent advantage ,as you seem to suggest, over any man born now. Nick, Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. Paul Hi, Does scripture say ” all who are sons of God have the Spirit of God”? No Does scripture say “all who have the Spirit of God are sons of God”? No Scripture says “all who are LED by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” So you have reversed the scripture and reduced it and yet claim it shows your meaning. It does not. Scripture says there are other sons of God in Job 1,2 and 38. Do you say they also must have the Spirit of God? Are they not greater than Adam, a mere man? Or, because you say Adam had the Spirit you also claim he was as great as Jesus and greater than the angels? Does everyone who has the Spirit follow the Spirit? No some will lose the Spirit as Revelation tells us. You cannot twist scripture safely, trettep, though I am sure you did it out of ignorance. Nick, Again you try to keep saying the scriptures don't mean what they say.  Here is another one for you to refute: Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. You going to still refute the Word of God? Paul

Hi trettep,
In context:Gal 3.23f-4.7
” But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female;for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave, although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the Father. So also we, while we are children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of this world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying
'Abba!Father!”
Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God”

So who is this written primarily to? The Jews as they are those under the Law and gentiles are outside the Law. They are those who inherit the promise as do gentiles in Jesus.

When was the Spirit sent into the hearts of the sons of God? In the fullness of time when God sent His Son into the world.

So did Adam share the Spirit in this way? No. It was not the fullness of time.

It is not your judgement that concerns me trettep.

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,00:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 22 2005,00:16) Hi trettep, The evidence that Adam had the Holy Spirit is not shown by fruit in his actions. Nor is it shown in scripture but you have inferred it from the fact he is said to be a son of God. Should you not rely on scriptural evidence? Why does God not say he blew the Holy Spirit into him instead of “the breath of God” which we share with the animals? James called Abraham our father[2.21] Was he a child of Abraham? Scripture says he is because he is a descendant. So also with Paul in Romans 4.12. Neither did Jesus dispute that the Jews were sons of Abraham by descent[Jn 8.39]. But they followed another father by their actions and that is more important to God. Are we children of Adam? Because of him we are all condemned to die unless we join with the only begotten Son of God.We are sons of Adam which makes us, by the principles of scripture, sons of God. But that odes not give us the Spirit. We must be born again of Water and the Spirit to receive our new adoption as sons of God. Nick,  I resent you calling what God created inperfect but I know its only because you lack knowledge.  For you say that scripture is incorrect and argue against scripture saying it didn't apply in that case.  I think your have a problem and can't admit that your wrong.   For if Adam didn't have the Holy Spirit then you paint him as carnally created and at emnity against God not able to even fullfil the commandments given to him by God.  For everyone knows that carnal man could not do the works of righteousness.  Therefore, you make God out to perform functions in vain.  You deny that Adam was given a chance to fullfill righteousness.  My advice to you is to repent.  I'm here to help if you desire. Paul

Hi trettep,
Gen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good”
Not perfect. Very good. Where does it say “perfect”? I would like to gain this knowledge which you say I lack. I will believe that Adam had the Holy Spirit as soon as you can show me that it is written.
What works of righteousness did this “spiritual” man do? You must know of some to make this statement surely? Actually scripture does not say he was a spiritual man but a natural man, and earthy man.
1Cor 15.45
” So it is written
'The first man Adam became a living soul'
The last Adam became a life giving spirit. However the spiritual is not first, but the NATURAL:then the spiritual.THE FIRST MAN IS FROM THE EARTH, EARTHY: the second man is from heaven. As is the EARTHY, so also are those who are earthy;and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the EARTHY, we will also bear the image of the heavenly”

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18)

Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul

No trettep,
I do not deny the Word of God.

I deny your speculations and teachings which do not line up with the Word of God in my view.

As usual you seem to show yourself as unteachable and intransigient in your views and we again have to agree to disagree..OK?

[NickHassan]

Quote (trettep @ May 22 2005,02:18)

Nick,  I rebuked you from the Word of God and you denied every verse was valid. Then you say: “Scriptural evidence is preferable to human inference as in all these matters.” Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Nick – that verse reminds me of you.  You are professing to know God but deny him.  When you deny the Word of God – you deny Jesus.  You can't say that a verse doesn't say what it clearly says.  If you have a problem with translation or understanding a word then its understandable.  But to say that it doesn't mean what it says is denial. Now I have rebuked you sharply in order that you might look at those verses again and evaluate them – look for the Truth and have zeal for it.  If the verses don't say what you want them to say – its not the Word of God's fault.  Its your failure in understanding.  The Word of God is not to conform to you – but you to the Word of God.   Paul

Hi trettep,
Tit 1.10f-2.1
” For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers….To the pure all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed
But for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.”

You say these words apply to me? Perhaps you know me or my fruit to say such things? Surely you would not apply those verses to me on the basis of my words alone? On the basis of my honest search for biblically supportable doctrine rather than vain speculation and personal spiritual revelation?

Clearly you have great personal confidence in your own standing before God to make such judgements.

God bless you trettep.

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