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Hi,
Biblical unitarianism sees man in only two dimensions-body and spirit.But from Genesis 2.7 onwards man is presented as inner man and outer man.
” 7Then the LORD God formed man of (A)dust from the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and (B)man became a living being.”Flesh and soul.
2Cor 5 1f
” 1For we know that if the (A)earthly (B)tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house Ânot made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For indeed in this house we (D)groan, longing to be (E)clothed with our dwelling from heaven,3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4For indeed while we are in this tent, we (F)groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be (G)clothed, so that what is (H)mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who (I)gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.”
2Cor 4.16-18
“16Therefore we (A)do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our (B)inner man is Âbeing renewed day by day.17For momentary, (D)light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
18while we (E)look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal”
Rom 7.22-24
” 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (A)the inner man,23but I see (B)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the Âlaw of my mind and making me a prisoner of (D)the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (E)the body of this (F)death?”
So did Paul see himself as a body or a soul living oin a tent body?
No! Get your facts right.
Biblical Unitarianism views man as a soul
You don't have a soul … you are a soul.
God breathed into Adam & Adam became a living soul.
When one dies one becomes a dead soul
Every living creature is a soul i.e. animals, etc.The soul is mortal.
The words for soul i.e. Heb. nephesh & Grk. psuche are also used to denote one's life and one's personality.
So another way of saying I lay down my life would be to say I lay down my soul
Another way of saying I am upset, is to say my soul is upset.
Either way, whichever usage, when one dies … the soul dies … hence one ceases to live … their life ceases … their personality ceases … until the resurrection!
Why? … because body/soul is a complete mortal whole.Now Nick … I know others have explained this to you, time & time again.
Whether you listen or not … at least state what Biblical Unitarianism teaches more accurately.
It is the least that you can do whether you agree with it or not.Let me add that Paul saw himself as a living mortal soul with a likewise mortal body. He therefore knew one day he would die. He would cease to live.
Paul therefore looked forward to the day when he would be immortalized i.e. resurrected as an immortal soulHe never once envisaged himself existing/living at any point without a body (like the Greeks/Platonists believed) hence his statement: (2 Cor 5:3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
He called this Greek way of thinking … nakedness.
Paul, like every other Jew who believed in the hope of the resurrection; looked forward to the day that he would be clothed with immortality; i.e. immortalized with an immortal body.
The house [2 Cor. 5.1ff] therefore was that immortal corporeal spiritual body that is promised to every saint.
Paul like every other saint, will be clothed with that new body in the resurrection; henceforth the saints will be immortal human beings like our Lord Jesus the Messiah.The OT Jews and the early church were not dualists.
Dualism came from the Hellenistic Gnostics. It originated in Greek philosophy & Platonism.The Gnostics propagated Dualism under the guise of Christianity, that somehow mankind is split up into two parts:
a mortal body and an immortal soul.Later on, the Greek fathers used this view to propagate their version of Jesus. That is, Jesus had a mortal body which housed an immortal being known as the Logos. That is, Jesus was this pre-existing immortal being namely the Logos, become flesh.
So at the crucifixion, the body died but the immortal, pre-existing Logos (which was who Jesus really was) lived on.The rest is history.
Adam,
What is you take on these scriptures?
2Co 5:6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord
2Co 5:7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight);
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.Not until the last trump?
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.I would appreciate you input
Nick,
In my view, spirit is the breath that YHWH gives us that causes us to be alive. When we die, that breath leaves us, and our bodies live no more. Thus, when Y'shua committed his spirit to YHWH on the cross, he immediately breathed his last, (Luke 24:36). The word “spirit” has other meanings, and are used in different ways in scripture, but this is its most fundamental meaning. It's most used secondary meaning is somewhat synonymous with the word “mind”. In other, words, if you have the spirit of christ, you have the mind of christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Adam Pastor has already discussed the meaning of soul above, so I won't duplicate his thoughts. I would just add that the most common secondary meaning of the word “soul” is similar to how we use the word “heart”. Though we have a physical heart that beats and keeps us alive, when we say, “My heart is sad”, we are describing our emotional mental state, not making the heart into something that exists on its own.
Hi WIT and Adam,
Do you discrimate between the Righteous and unrighteous dead?
I believe Jesus does.
That is why he said God is the God of the Living and how Abraham rejoiced to see his day.
That may be also why “death” [and Hades]is cast into the lake of fire before death itself is defeated as the final enemy in 1Cor 15
. “Death” here may be another name for the waiting place of the righteous dead.Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 02 2006,20:51) Adam, What is you take on these scriptures?
2Co 5:6 Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord
2Co 5:7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight);
2Co 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.Not until the last trump?
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.I would appreciate you input
Paul again is talking about & looking forward to the Future Resurrection, which will occur at Christ's Coming/Parousia as described in 1 Cor 15.52.What follows is my post & a gentleman by the name of Elias' post from another forum concerning 2 Cor 5:1ff.
These 2 posts best summarizes my view.- (1) HART2HART said
“I tend to think that a Christian who is absent in body here on earth is “present with the Lord”My reply therefore was:
You need to revisit that verse again …
(2 Cor 5:8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Read the passage from say … 2 Cor 4:18 right through to verse 8
And compare with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15:35ff (as well as elsewhere) and hopefully you will see Paul's point.Hint: Paul's teaching is in total harmony with the OT's definition and Christ's definition of death & resurrection.
One will only be present with the Lord in this context, in the Resurrection when they are resurrected & transformed i.e. absent from their old, mortal body and then present with the Lord in the Resurrection of the just …
The dead have no concept of the time that has transpired in between these two events
(Death & Resurrection)
So, for a saint … the moment they die i.e. absent from the body (via decay, corruption, etc)
… the very next conscious moment that they experience …
they will be present with the Lord via Resurrection. - (2) This is Elias' post :-
Concerning “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”The Bible DOES NOT SAY THAT!!!!
Here is what it says:
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Paul did not say “to be absent from the body is to present with the Lord”. Instead, he said “we are confident and willing rather (ie “instead”) to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
What did he mean? Let us look at the context:
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cr 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Cr 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Cr 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Verse 4 alone refutes the common doctrine of leaving the body and going home to Jesus. Paul specifically says “NOT that we should be unclothed” (ie “leave the body”) BUT RATHER that we should be clothed upon, ie resurrection.
Paul says in verse 1 that if this earthly house (body) were dissolved, we have another body waiting for us (resurrection body). Verse 2 says we earnestly desire – not to die and fly away to heaven, but to be clothed upon, ie resurrected into our resurrection bodies.
Verse 3 teaches that our hope is to NOT be found naked but clothed upon. …
Verse 4 agains says that in this natural body we groan, but not that we should leave the body (be unclothed), but rather instead that we be resurrected, receive our glorified bodies, that “mortality might be swallowed up by life”. Death is not swallowed up by life at death and “going to heaven” but at the resurrection!
Verse 5 says the earnest of this is the Holy Ghost. Verse 6 says THEREFORE we are always confident (confident we shall be resurrected into life because of the earnest of the Spirit), knowing that “while we are AT HOME in the body we are absent from the Lord” (for we walk by faith and not by sight).
We are confident and willing (willing for what? To be clothed upon, per the previous verses!) to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. That is, we are willing to put off this mortal body and put on that immortal body.
This is all about resurrection, not flying away out of our bodies.
Hi ,
There is wisdom to be found in Ps 49” 8For (A)the redemption of his soul is costly,
And he should cease trying forever–
9That he should (B)live on eternally,
That he should not [a]Âundergo decay.
10For he sees that even (D)wise men die;
The (E)stupid and the senseless alike perish
And (F)leave their wealth to others.
11Their (G)inner thought is that their houses (H)are forever
And their dwelling places to all generations;
They have (I)called their lands after their own names.
12But (J)man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
13This is the (K)way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who (L)approve their words. Selah.
14As sheep they are appointed (M)for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the (N)upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol (O)to consume
So that they have no habitation.
15But God will (P)redeem my soul from the power of Sheol,
For (Q)He will receive me. Selah.”Nick wrote:
Quote Hi WIT and Adam,
Do you discrimate between the Righteous and unrighteous dead?
I believe Jesus does.
That is why he said God is the God of the Living and how Abraham rejoiced to see his day.
That may be also why “death” [and Hades]is cast into the lake of fire before death itself is defeated as the final enemy in 1Cor 15
. “Death” here may be another name for the waiting place of the righteous dead.Yes, the righteous have their names written in the Book of Life, whereas the unrighteous do not. Those in the Book of Life will certainly be counted among the living at the resurrection and beyond the Judgement. Such is the case with Abraham.
Hi WIT,
“God is the God of the living
and not
the dead”and
“Abraham rejoiced to see my day.
and he saw it, and was glad”Did he see it prophetically?
Or was rather with those spoken of in 1 Peter 1.10-12?Hi Adam P,
What did Stephen mean when he was being stoned and he called out for Jesus to receive his spirit?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2006,05:21) hmmm
OK. My last answer.
Stephen meant what David meant in Ps. 31.5, which he said when very much alive.
Both believed in the sleep of death [PS 13.3]
Both now are asleep [Acts 13.36, 2.29]
Stephen fell asleep [7.60]ALL SLEEP THE SLEEP OF DEATH IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH UNTIL THE RESURRECTION
DANIEL 12.2ADIEU
Hi Adam P,
Thanks.
Now if a man dies his “nephesh” dead body rots entirely away to nothing but dust
and yet you call this sleep?The Scriptures call it sleep.
You have a problem with that! … take it up with the AUTHOR.I am just naive & simple-minded enough to believe the Scriptures.
(Dan 12:2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Mat 22:29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Hi Adam P,
So when the witch of Endor wakened but did not resurrect Samuel it is not a little surprising to you that his being was more than dust. He looked as he used to, knew what had happened and even prophesied?The following writing is very good and covers the subject well. Readers may find it of interest.
God Bless
- (1) HART2HART said
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