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Look at these scriptures of part of Gods creation:
Isaiah 45, 6-7. I am Ieue Alueim, and there is none else.
Former of light and creator of darkness,
Maker of good and creator of evil.
I, Ieue Alueim, made all of these things.(He created evil)
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows
into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his
occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner to harm.(He created the devil)
Prov. 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own
pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil.(God makes the wicked)
Ro. 9:21 “Why do you make me thus?” Or has not
the potter the right over the clay, out of
the same kneading to make one vessel
indead, for honer, yet one for dishoner?(God makes some for good, some for evil).
Can some share their opinions on these scriptures?
Quote (chosenone @ June 16 2007,13:27) Look at these scriptures of part of Gods creation: Isaiah 45, 6-7. I am Ieue Alueim, and there is none else.
Former of light and creator of darkness,
Maker of good and creator of evil.
I, Ieue Alueim, made all of these things.(He created evil)
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows
into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his
occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner to harm.(He created the devil)
Prov. 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own
pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil.(God makes the wicked)
Ro. 9:21 “Why do you make me thus?” Or has not
the potter the right over the clay, out of
the same kneading to make one vessel
indead, for honer, yet one for dishoner?(God makes some for good, some for evil).
Can some share their opinions on these scriptures?
God is the creator of everything. How are we to know good unless we know bad?Quote (chosenone @ June 16 2007,08:27) Look at these scriptures of part of Gods creation: Isaiah 45, 6-7. I am Ieue Alueim, and there is none else.
Former of light and creator of darkness,
Maker of good and creator of evil.
I, Ieue Alueim, made all of these things.(He created evil)
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows
into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his
occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner to harm.(He created the devil)
Prov. 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own
pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil.(God makes the wicked)
Ro. 9:21 “Why do you make me thus?” Or has not
the potter the right over the clay, out of
the same kneading to make one vessel
indead, for honer, yet one for dishoner?(God makes some for good, some for evil).
Can some share their opinions on these scriptures?
Isaiah 45:6
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: – adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]the word translated “evil” could also be translated calamity or distress which are better counterparts to shâlôm (“good” from your translation) which is better translated “peace”. In other words “I can bring you peace or sorrow”.
Isaiah 54:16 it does not translate “devil” nor do I believe it to mean a person. Keeping it in context, and in my opinion, this could be translated as “rust”. In other words “I created the person making the sword or spear but I also created the oxidation process to bring it to “ruin” (that's how powerful He is) and this is why no weapon formed…
Prov. 16:4 yes God made the wicked but He did not make them wicked
Romans 9:21 I agree the scriptures are clear that God's choices result in some “good” people suffering while some wicked prosper. But we're all guilty and while He may harden a heart to accomplish something, it does not necessarily mean to prevent them from repenting, but to force an action. In other words God has His reasons and who are we to question them.
Hope this helps
Wm
Thank you all for your opinions so far, I hope we get more, I'm sure there are many different views.
Blessings.
Quote (seekingtruth @ June 16 2007,22:27) Quote (chosenone @ June 16 2007,08:27) Look at these scriptures of part of Gods creation: Isaiah 45, 6-7. I am Ieue Alueim, and there is none else.
Former of light and creator of darkness,
Maker of good and creator of evil.
I, Ieue Alueim, made all of these things.(He created evil)
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows
into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his
occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner to harm.(He created the devil)
Prov. 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own
pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil.(God makes the wicked)
Ro. 9:21 “Why do you make me thus?” Or has not
the potter the right over the clay, out of
the same kneading to make one vessel
indead, for honer, yet one for dishoner?(God makes some for good, some for evil).
Can some share their opinions on these scriptures?
Isaiah 45:6
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: – adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]the word translated “evil” could also be translated calamity or distress which are better counterparts to shâlôm (“good” from your translation) which is better translated “peace”. In other words “I can bring you peace or sorrow”.
Isaiah 54:16 it does not translate “devil” nor do I believe it to mean a person. Keeping it in context, and in my opinion, this could be translated as “rust”. In other words “I created the person making the sword or spear but I also created the oxidation process to bring it to “ruin” (that's how powerful He is) and this is why no weapon formed…
Prov. 16:4 yes God made the wicked but He did not make them wicked
Romans 9:21 I agree the scriptures are clear that God's choices result in some “good” people suffering while some wicked prosper. But we're all guilty and while He may harden a heart to accomplish something, it does not necessarily mean to prevent them from repenting, but to force an action. In other words God has His reasons and who are we to question them.
Hope this helps
Wm
Excellent ST.Thanks Is 1:18,
God in all His wisdom knows there is no value to evil and it isn't needed to “balance out good” as some believe. But, He will use it to show futility of sin but it is not part of Him.Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ June 16 2007,22:27) Quote (chosenone @ June 16 2007,08:27) Look at these scriptures of part of Gods creation: Isaiah 45, 6-7. I am Ieue Alueim, and there is none else.
Former of light and creator of darkness,
Maker of good and creator of evil.
I, Ieue Alueim, made all of these things.(He created evil)
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows
into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his
occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner to harm.(He created the devil)
Prov. 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own
pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil.(God makes the wicked)
Ro. 9:21 “Why do you make me thus?” Or has not
the potter the right over the clay, out of
the same kneading to make one vessel
indead, for honer, yet one for dishoner?(God makes some for good, some for evil).
Can some share their opinions on these scriptures?
Isaiah 45:6
H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: – adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]the word translated “evil” could also be translated calamity or distress which are better counterparts to shâlôm (“good” from your translation) which is better translated “peace”. In other words “I can bring you peace or sorrow”.
Isaiah 54:16 it does not translate “devil” nor do I believe it to mean a person. Keeping it in context, and in my opinion, this could be translated as “rust”. In other words “I created the person making the sword or spear but I also created the oxidation process to bring it to “ruin” (that's how powerful He is) and this is why no weapon formed…
Prov. 16:4 yes God made the wicked but He did not make them wicked
Romans 9:21 I agree the scriptures are clear that God's choices result in some “good” people suffering while some wicked prosper. But we're all guilty and while He may harden a heart to accomplish something, it does not necessarily mean to prevent them from repenting, but to force an action. In other words God has His reasons and who are we to question them.
Hope this helps
Wm
Hi st.
Thanks for your reply. Your definitions of translations do not agree with the “Interlinear Scripture Analyser”, which I use to define translations, a very accurate sourse in my opinion.
I do agree when you say Is. 54:16 does not say “devil”.
I do not understand when you say “God made the wicked, but did not make them wicked”. How could God make the wicked and them not be wicked?
Thanks for your input.Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ June 16 2007,13:27) Look at these scriptures of part of Gods creation: Isaiah 45, 6-7. I am Ieue Alueim, and there is none else.
Former of light and creator of darkness,
Maker of good and creator of evil.
I, Ieue Alueim, made all of these things.(He created evil)
Isaiah 54:16 Behold! I, I created the artificer who blows
into the fire of coal,
And brings forth an implement for his
occupation.
And I, I created the ruiner to harm.(He created the devil)
Prov. 16:4 Yahweh has made everything for its own
pertinent end,
Yea even the wicked for the day of evil.(God makes the wicked)
Ro. 9:21 “Why do you make me thus?” Or has not
the potter the right over the clay, out of
the same kneading to make one vessel
indead, for honer, yet one for dishoner?(God makes some for good, some for evil).
Can some share their opinions on these scriptures?
Thank God that so far, I am not created for wicked or evil. I do tend to think (and this is personal opinion and not backed up by scripture at all), that when he creates those for evil, that they will not be eternal destroyed……they served a purpose by which they had no control. Because they had no control and could not *choose* to be otherwise – I believe God will have mercy on their souls. At least, I hope so. I think. Ha! How's that for a scholarly answer.
chosenone,
Quote
I do not understand when you say “God made the wicked, but did not make them wicked”. How could God make the wicked and them not be wicked?
Thanks for your input.I do not believe they are made wicked, but they have inherited it (through Adam), as have we all. However God's position is “While we were yet sinners…”
Hi Not3in1.
Your personal opinion that you say is not backed by scripture, but is very good reasoning, I would say. Thank you for your opinion, very much appreciated.Blessings.
I agree with ST and I think we need to tread carefully in this arena, so as not to misrepresent YHWH. I do not believe YHWH created us as automatons, but rather volitional, free will agents that are capable of choosing between good and bad. A sin is preceeded by the decision to commit it. The decision and the sin is solely the sinner's, not YHWH's. Our sin nature does no predispose us to sin uncontrollably. In fact scripture often speaks of “self control” (Acts 24:25; 1 Corinthians 7:5-9, 9:25; Galatians 5:23; 2 Timothy 3:3; Titus 1:8; 2 Peter 1:6), which implies the capacity to exercise control is a give in.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2007,20:48) I agree with ST and I think we need to tread carefully in this arena, so as not to misrepresent YHWH. I do not believe YHWH created us as automatons, but rather volitional, free will agents that are capable of choosing between good and bad. A sin is preceeded by the decision to commit it. The decision and the sin is solely the sinner's, not YHWH's. Our sin nature does no predispose us to sin uncontrollably. In fact scripture often speaks of “self control” (Acts 24:25; 1 Corinthians 7:5-9, 9:25; Galatians 5:23; 2 Timothy 3:3; Titus 1:8; 2 Peter 1:6), which implies the capacity to exercise control is a give in.
Hi Is.1:18,
Thanks for your opinion about one's ability to choose. What is your understanding then of Eph.1:11? “God is operating all according to the councel of His will”.Blessings.
Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“I agree with ST and I think we need to tread carefully in this arena, so as not to misrepresent YHWH.”
So why then do you call the Son of God this name?Hi
Job 9:
10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.
11 Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.
12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?Rom 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!Isa 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Who can fully understand his ways?
I am not sure I completely buy into the “free moral agent” deal.
I dont think it is as simple as that. I believe we have a will, but does mans will negate the “sovereignty” of God.
Consider this. Jesus fulfilled a boat load of scriptures that were written of him, some over 3000 years earlier.
Imagine the zillions of possibilties that had to take place for this to happen. Every action in human history had to play out to the day that Christ was born. If one piece of the puzzle was missing then it wouldnt have happened the way that it did.
Some might say this was just the foreknowledge of God.
But if it was all mans descision, then God would not be 'Soveriegn”
One murder for instance could have changed the bloodline of Christ.
I am not saying that we are puppets on a string, but consider how God did in spite of mans will.
Who can explain how anyone could drown the whole human race and not be evil. Worse than that is he knew he would do it before he created man.
Yet we know this was not an evil act of God. For what is evil to man, God is above. He does not come under the same rules as man.
How about God commanding the children of Israel to kill all the women, children and entire citys for his purpose?
What about Nebuchadnezzer? Did he have a free will?
If God is all powerfull, all knowing, and is everywhere all at the same time, and “rules in the affairs of men”, can we truly say that we are “100% free moral agents?
Maybe God wanted us to see and experience the worst of things before he shows us the best of things.
Just my opinion.
Quote (acertainchap @ June 21 2007,00:34) Maybe God wanted us to see and experience the worst of things before he shows us the best of things. Just my opinion.
My point exactly. How would you understand what is good if you don't know what is evil. Adam didn't know evil so he didn't know what was good. Adam wanted to know Satan's way. He didn't trust God! He wanted to choose what was good and what was evil.Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.Before they chose Satan's way they didn't know they were naked. What they saw was natural and beautiful and good.
Satan drew 1/3 of God's creation by saying his way was better than God's way. Well IMO God has allowed Satan to show his ways for all to see. We have a choice to serve Satan and his way (man's way) or God and His way. However God is still in charge and I believe uses those who choose Satan's way to teach His children GOOD.
“The devil made me do it” OH, he did! Did he?
If man would just keep the Commandments then heaven would already be here! No sin, no evil.
No lies
No thieves
No murders
*No pride
No hatred
Only Love for one another and God.I see a comerical that promotes breaking the tenth commandment. Two guys buying “things” and one wanting to out buy the other. I believe their is rank in heaven. The Archangel, the Chief angel! Will we in the new kingdom be jealous of our chief angel as Satan is jealous of God?
If my brother has more than me I'm glad for the brother not jealous! Hey! May be he will invite me over to swim in his pool!
IHL,
Ken
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