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What do JW’s teach? …for those who want straight answers.
Quote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,11:44) Quote The JW organization teaches its members that their organization (according to them) is God’s Government on Earth. Maybe I should clarify. JW's believe that the kingdom is a heavenly one made up of Jesus, and his “co-heirs”, the “holy ones,” the “144,000” who have been “bought from the earth.” It is a heavenly kingdom and rules from heaven. They don't believe it's “on Earth.”
However, some of these people “the holy ones” are on earth, and yes, JW's believe that those few that are left of the 144,000, are representatives of that kingdom.
The organisation as a whole is not in any way the kingdom. Jesus, as head, along with the 144,000 joint heirs make up the kingdom.That is what JW's believe. So, they don't support human governments but pray for and look to God's government, his kingdom.
The kingdom is not considered to be on earth. It is a heavenly kingdom. It will rule over those on earth.
Hi David,Thank you for helping us to understand what your organization teaches with regard to my first question.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,11:45) Ed, I'm answering your questions. I wonder if you could go back and touch on mine. (I have to leave for a while now. Take your time.)
Hi David,Could you please single out your questions, with regard to your comments,
so I can understand the correct meanings you intended to convey.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?I think the simple answer to your question is: They don't believe the “organization” is going to replace all existing governments, but believe God's kingdom is going to do this. How will this happen?
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”The “what” will happen is above. The “how” is actually armageddon.
You capitalized the 'ANY' as if you disagreed with that idea. So, I'll try to outline the questions I had for you in the next post.
My post again, shortened and with the questions made more obvious:
It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.
While the Bible says human government has it's place and has been authorized by God for our good and that we should follow the law of the land and pay caesar his due, all human governments have proven incompetent to solve any of mankind's problems. They can not bring lasting peace or save people.
JW's believe the last several thousand years have been an experiment in HUMAN RULE–it has been a failure. All this to show that we need God and GOD RULE. Today, we pray for God's kingdom to come and that kingdom will destroy human governments (Dan 2:44) We don't want to find ourself promoting or sponsoring something God has purposed to destroy.And neither did the FIRST CHRISTIANS:
“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians . . . . The Christians . . . felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.”
–On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, . . . and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”
–The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.”
–“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Story of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”
Church historian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?”
ED, WERE THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS CORRECT IN THEIR VIEW OF POLITICS? OR, WERE THOSE WHO CAME LATER CORRECT? OR ARE BOTH SOMEHOW CORRECT?
Given all that was said of an apostasy, a falling away from true worship, I'd go with the earliest Christians any day.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”ED, IF THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, WHY BE ONE OF THEM?
ED, WHY BE PART OF SOMETHING GOD IS GOING TO DESTROY? (DAN 2:44)“and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev)
ED, WOULD YOU WANT TO BE ONE OF THOSE KINGS WHO WILL BE AT WAR WITH GOD?
JOHN 6:15
“Therefore Jesus, knowing they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”Notice that Jesus decisively rejected this offer of political leadership. Our exemplar refused involvement in political matters.
JOHN 17:14-16
“I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”ED, IF SOMEONE IS NO PART OF THE WORLD, WOULD THEY BE INVOLVED IN THE AFFAIRS OF RUNNING THE WORLD, IN THE ADMINISTRATION AND RULING OF THE WORLD?
Furthermore, notice that we are also warned of the “wicked one” in this verse.
In John 16:11, we see that Satan is described as the “ruler of this world” who has been judged.ED, IF SATAN IS THE RULER OF THE WORLD, WHY WOULD A CHRISTIAN WANT TO TAKE PART OR JOIN IN THAT RULERSHIP?
Jesus followers are subjects of that kingdom, which also makes them no part of the world and keeps them out of politics.
As Jesus followers, Christians pray for God’s government, his kingdom. They tell others the good news about this government, and all it will accomplish. (Mat 24:14)
Instead looking to human governments to solve the world’s problems, Christians look to God’s kingdom as the ultimate solution to mankind’s problems–hence, they do not engage in politics.
david.
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,08:47)
For example: they teach their members not to participate in ANY local Government,
yet they believe their organization is going to replace all existing Governments.
Just exactly how does your organization teach this will happen; David?
Hi David,I need some time to sort the meaning of intent to your questions, so please be patient.
Would I be correct in assuming (by your last post) that your organization teaches that God
is going to destroy all existing Governments, and your organization will be the last one standing?
If this is not a correct summation of what your organization teaches, please clarify the difference for us.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Sep. 15 2011,17:38) My post again, shortened and with the questions made more obvious: It is true that JW's believe they should stay out of politics/government.
While the Bible says human government has it's place and has been authorized by God for our good and that we should follow the law of the land and pay caesar his due, all human governments have proven incompetent to solve any of mankind's problems. They can not bring lasting peace or save people.
JW's believe the last several thousand years have been an experiment in HUMAN RULE–it has been a failure. All this to show that we need God and GOD RULE. Today, we pray for God's kingdom to come and that kingdom will destroy human governments (Dan 2:44) We don't want to find ourself promoting or sponsoring something God has purposed to destroy.And neither did the FIRST CHRISTIANS:
(1)“Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians . . . . The Christians . . . felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor.”
–On the Road to Civilization—A World History, A. K. Heckel and J. G. Sigman, 1937, pp. 237-8(2)“The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, . . . and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”
–The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168(3)“While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416.
(4)“The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service.”
–“Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177,” by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246)(5)Speaking of the early Christians, the book World History, The Story of Man’s Achievements says: “Zealous Christians did not serve in the armed forces or accept political offices.”
(6)Church historian Augustus Neander reported that “the Christians were represented as men dead to the world, and useless for all affairs of life; . . . and it was asked, what would become of the business of life, if all were like them?”
(7)ED, WERE THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS CORRECT IN THEIR VIEW OF POLITICS? (8)OR, WERE THOSE WHO CAME LATER CORRECT? (9)OR ARE BOTH SOMEHOW CORRECT?
Given all that was said of an apostasy, a falling away from true worship, I'd go with the earliest Christians any day.
(10 A)1 CORINTHIANS 2:6
“Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing.”(10 B)1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”(11)ED, IF THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THE RULERS OF THIS SYSTEM OF THINGS ARE TO COME TO NOTHING, WHY BE ONE OF THEM?
(12)ED, WHY BE PART OF SOMETHING GOD IS GOING TO DESTROY? (DAN 2:44)“and they go forth to the KINGS of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” (Rev)
(13)ED, WOULD YOU WANT TO BE ONE OF THOSE KINGS WHO WILL BE AT WAR WITH GOD?
JOHN 6:15
“Therefore Jesus, knowing they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”Notice that Jesus decisively rejected this offer of political leadership. Our exemplar refused involvement in political matters.
JOHN 17:14-16
“I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 15 “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”(14)ED, IF SOMEONE IS NO PART OF THE WORLD, WOULD THEY BE INVOLVED IN THE AFFAIRS OF RUNNING THE WORLD, IN THE ADMINISTRATION AND RULING OF THE WORLD?
(15)Furthermore, notice that we are also warned of the “wicked one” in this verse.
In John 16:11, we see that Satan is described as the “ruler of this world” who has been judged.(16)ED, IF SATAN IS THE RULER OF THE WORLD, WHY WOULD A CHRISTIAN WANT TO TAKE PART OR JOIN IN THAT RULERSHIP?
(17)Jesus followers are subjects of that kingdom, which also makes them no part of the world and keeps them out of politics.
(18)As Jesus followers, Christians pray for God’s government, his kingdom. They tell others the good news about this government, (19)and all it will accomplish. (Mat 24:14)
(20)Instead looking to human governments to solve the world’s problems, (21)Christians look to God’s kingdom as the ultimate solution to mankind’s problems–hence, (22)they do not engage in politics.
david.
Hi David, you call this a shortened post?
If you don't break your posts into smaller more
readable pieces (for those who read this thread), I will.1) I don't care what either A. K. Heckel or J. G. Sigman said.
2) Nor does it matter what Augustus Neander had to say.
3) Edward Gibbon words make no difference either.
4) Do you think that finding others to agree with your position, like R. Johnson,
somehow adds to your position? (See Five common fallacies link)Quote (david @ Dec. 20 2005,14:11) 5) FALLACY NUMBER 2 …APPEALING TO AUTHORITY
6) “Useless for all affairs of life” …is this what your organization teaches?7) Who says those you cite were early Christians?
8) If those who came later adhere to what the bible teaches.
9) What the bible teaches is correct. If you want me to address
an opinion, than it MUST be yours, because those you quote are not here to respond.10 A) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world,
nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (1 Cor 2:6)
10 B) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,
even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Cor.15:24)
Do you think your organization is somehow exempt from the word “ALL” in 1Cor.15:24?11) Good question.
12) I don't see the word destroy anywhere in 1Cor.15:24?13) See Isaiah 27:4-5 and Isaiah 54:17 for my position in this war.
14) Read Rev.11:15.
15) Satan has indeed been ju
dged!16) Taking a stand for God is not joining with Satan's ruler-ship (as you put it).
17) Spin
18) God's kingdom (on Earth) started at Pentecost. (Link)
19) It will accomplish what?20) Who said to do that?
21) Christians look to God’s kingdom as the ultimate solution to mankind’s problems. ~ Agreed
22) Political spinGod bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2011,19:22) Hi David. Do JWs believe in a one thousand year millenium?
Thank you for your time.
Hi Shimmer,Thanks for participating in this thread!
This is the next aspect I wish to explore as well.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed.
Looking forward to the answers.
I havent got around to asking the ones who come to my door these questions yet, but I had heard JWs do not believe in healing. Unsure on the millenium one.Good idea for a thread BTW.
What do JW’s teach? …for those who want straight answers.
Hi Shimmer,
Others agree that starting this thread was a good idea also.
Quote I had heard JWs do not believe in healing I have heard this as well; looking forward to David's answers.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgshimmer! The JW I don't believe are that they don't believe in healing, they don't believe in blood transfusion…. but the believe that God is the healer of all things. Irene
Ed, did you read my post? I don't believe that all things that the JW believe is all bad….. We had many conversations with them, and I believe they have done away with some bad things, and have learned what the Bible teaches about the Sabbath and other things…. I liked when they came around, I like to debate Scriptures. We learned about the preexisting of Jesus from them….. So they are not all bad….I think they are getting a bad rap…Irene
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 15 2011,20:01) What do JW’s teach? …for those who want straight answers. Hi Shimmer,
Others agree that starting this thread was a good idea also.
Quote I had heard JWs do not believe in healing I have heard this as well; looking forward to David's answers.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I think there are pages and pages of me discussing this in one of the “speaking in tongues” thread.Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2011,19:21) Hi David. Is it true JWs do not believe in healing?
We don't believe in miraculous healings today. We believe those things were “done away with.” I can discuss this more, but have only a few minutes now.Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2011,19:22) Hi David. Do JWs believe in a one thousand year millenium?
Thank you for your time.
Sure.Gene, I must go now. I only have time to address the first 6 points:
Quote 1) I don't care what either A. K. Heckel or J. G. Sigman said. 2) Nor does it matter what Augustus Neander had to say.
3) Edward Gibbon words make no difference either.
4) Do you think that finding others to agree with your position, like R. Johnson,
somehow adds to your position? (See Five common fallacies link)Quote (david @ Dec. 20 2005,14:11)
5) FALLACY NUMBER 2 …APPEALING TO AUTHORITY6) “Useless for all affairs of life” …is this what your organization teaches?
OK, let me rephrase:
It is a fact that the earliest Christians did not engage in politics (or war). Check any source you like. Google it. I just did. I found the same thing. So yes, regardless of what a few authorities have said, it seems an established fact that the earliest Christians (the ones taught by Christ and the ones that came just after,) did not take part in politics or government.
Secondly, it was not a matter of finding others to agree with a position, regarding JW belief. We know this, because in the early days, they did go to war, for example. So, they had no solid position for a while, but developed one through scripture. And the FACT that the earliest Christians came to the same conclusion regarding these things, helps.
I also consider it a fact that Jesus, John, Peter, Paul, Jude, spoke of an apostasy that would come after the apostles going away. If the earliest Christians refused politics, and those who came after embrased politics, which is more likely to have the correct view?
None of this is the heart of the issue. The Bible is, but the fact that the earliest Christians unquestionably stayed out of politics should give us a clue.
I have to go.
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