What Bible Version(s) do you use?

[kejonn]

Quote (Stu @ Oct. 13 2007,21:02)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 14 2007,04:40) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 13 2007,01:12) A while ago Elaine1809 wrote: ++”I think the scriptures instruct us the way we ought to behave with believers and unbelievers. How should nonbelievers be treated? Love and be kind to them? (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 22:39, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Romans 13:9-10, Galatians 5:14, James 2:8) Shun them? (2 Corinthians 6:14-17 ) Kill them? (Deuteronomy 13:6-10) Stuart Stu, Keep all of this in the context of what is written in the Bible, not any bias you have against it. Now, do you think the Israelites had it better under Pharaoh or after the Exodus? Answer that question and we can move on from there. Hi kejonn You've really lost me here. What does the exodus have to do with god's flip-flopping on whether to kill or love atheists? Stuart

Stu,

Let me clarify. Take the Bible, read a little bit about what was going on with the Israelites under Pharaoh, and then look at their life after they were delivered from Egypt. What this will mean is that you will need to “pretend” that what you are reading is a historic event. After that, tell me if they had it better under Pharaoh or after they left Egypt.

Then we can discuss some of the verses you listed. I think you need to see them in their proper perspective.

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 13 2007,18:40)

Stu, What is the purpose of your last post?  You take an awful lot of time and research in trying to turn people away from their faith.  I bet you know some of the scriptures better than some Christians!   Why do you study scriptures – you do, you know.  Even looking up scriptures that point to God's just anger or punishment/discipline is still study of the Bible. I guess I'm just curious because if you really felt the way you say you do, wouldn't you want to be discussing evolution and God's wrath with other common believer's?  Wouldn't you want to be advancing your views/beliefs with other's who are like-minded?  I've wondered this about you……….

Hi Not3in1

I think it is important for all who claim to be christian to know that if they agree with Jesus that the whole book is good for teaching then the teaching includes that god thinks it is OK to put homosexuals and atheists to the sword. I seem to remember a vicious Catholic with a toothbrush moustache and a German-speaking army formed broadly the same view.

The bible asks you to follow the most tortuous practices that are contrary to human nature and often result in private misery for those who are by their nature not suited to them, and it plainly states facts of history that can be demonstrated to be wrong. To ask someone to have faith against their own common observation is to invite them into a fantasy “club” that is in the business of denying reality.
If you have considered all these things, and the devious political motivations of those who are leaders in promoting it (keep L. Ron Hubbard in mind here) then, well you are an adult, and many adults choose to do even crazier things!

The question is, I often think, who is it that needs saving?

Stuart

[Not3in1]

So you are here to save us?

Stu,
What are these “tortuous practices that are contrary to human nature” that we are asked to keep? This sounds like it might be an open window into your soul……
Love to you,
Mandy

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 14 2007,16:09)

So you are here to save us?   Stu, What are these “tortuous practices that are contrary to human nature” that we are asked to keep?  This sounds like it might be an open window into your soul…… Love to you, Mandy

I'd hate to claim to try and save anyone!

Let me give you one example. I have a friend who was brought up in the Catholic church. Presumably he was taught that homosexuality is sinful – love the sinner but hate the sin, or some other such nonsense. Several years ago he came out as a gay man and I guess he had arrived at a point where he no longer felt he needed to worry about being ostracised or having to keep up some image he had cultivated, I'm not sure exactly how it went. Now we all know what Leviticus has to say about homosexuality (I hope). My friend has formed loving gay relationships that I would consider to be the equivalent, if not actually closer to the conservative heterosexual ideal than many other straight couples I know of. Not only does the bible (teach all of it) disapprove of what comes naturally to his human nature, expression of love for other men including a sexual relationship, but is would have him killed for it. The alternative, I suppose is for him to suppress his feelings and torture himself by denying his own version of loving another human being.

A tortuous belief system? I think so.

Stuart

[Samuel]

Its wrong.

GOD did not make Man and Man….

He made Man and Woman…

If he wanted Men to love Men and have sexual relations …he could have easily just not created Woman, and made two men.

Again, I say…it's wrong. It's altogether evil and a device of Satan's lies!

One could just as easily arguee that its ok to kill other men when the bible clearly states:

Deuteronomy 5:17
Thou shalt not kill.

I am quite sure there is someone in this world that believes in some form of religion that killing is just fine.

Your soul knows whats right and whats not. You know deep down inside of the right and wrongs …but you choose to ignore those convections.

[Not3in1]

Stuart,
Tell me something, how do you know the Bible so well? Were you raised Catholic?

When something feels so right, it's hard to believe it's wrong. But as an environmentalist, I can assure you, our sexuality is not different from the animal kingdom. How man gay animals do you know? I have a liberal friend who told me once that 10% of the animal population is homosexual. Really? I've never seen a homosexual animal, and I watch the animal kingdom pretty closely. I am a bee keeper, and have bred a wide variety of animals on this mini-farm we own. I can assure you that none of our animals are gay or lesbian. Think about this, if San Fran is 70% gay, wouldn't you expect that a higher percentage of their animal kingdom would be homosexual as well? this fact is not proven.

The fact that humans struggle with what is wrong is still a sign that they are listening to the one who created them! I bet if you interview your friend, you will still find that even though he has given into his desires, he is no more happy than when he was fighting them. He is no more free than he was before.

Those who Christ has set free are free indeed, brother. I speak from personal experience here.

[Stu]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 14 2007,18:05)

Its wrong. GOD did not make Man and Man…. He made Man and Woman… If he wanted Men to love Men and have sexual relations …he could have easily just not created Woman, and made two men. Again, I say…it's wrong.  It's altogether evil and a device of Satan's lies! One could just as easily arguee that its ok to kill other men when the bible clearly states: Deuteronomy 5:17 Thou shalt not kill. I am quite sure there is someone in this world that believes in some form of religion that killing is just fine. Your soul knows whats right and whats not.  You know deep down inside of the right and wrongs …but you choose to ignore those convections.

Hi Samuel

I can hear the saliva dripping from your lips as you type!

Tell me, is it right to kill homosexuals, or is that verse wrong?

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 14 2007,18:12)

Stuart, Tell me something, how do you know the Bible so well?  Were you raised Catholic? When something feels so right, it's hard to believe it's wrong.  But as an environmentalist, I can assure you, our sexuality is not different from the animal kingdom.  How man gay animals do you know?  I have a liberal friend who told me once that 10% of the animal population is homosexual.  Really?  I've never seen a homosexual animal, and I watch the animal kingdom pretty closely.  I am a bee keeper, and have bred a wide variety of animals on this mini-farm we own.  I can assure you that none of our animals are gay or lesbian.  Think about this, if San Fran is 70% gay, wouldn't you expect that a higher percentage of their animal kingdom would be homosexual as well?  this fact is not proven.   The fact that humans struggle with what is wrong is still a sign that they are listening to the one who created them!  I bet if you interview your friend, you will still find that even though he has given into his desires, he is no more happy than when he was fighting them.  He is no more free than he was before. Those who Christ has set free are free indeed, brother.  I speak from personal experience here.

Hi Not3in1

On being raised Catholic, no I wasn't.

On rejecting oppressive superstitions: I think there are very many people who are far happier having renounced religion. I have read too many such accounts now to have remembered the count.

On homosexuality in other species, as they say, prepare to be amazed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_homosexuality#Homosexual_behavior

Stuart

[Not3in1]

Have you talked with very many homosexual people, Stu? Perhaps you are a gay man, yourself? I can tell you that there are a great many gay and lesbian people out there who regret their “choices.”

[Not3in1]

Wow!

I just got done reading the link you provided. Here is a good example of not believing everything you read! Also, just because it is in the Wikipedia doesn't make it true. Some of their ref's were clearly bias and also their research in various segments was weak. For instance, I raise sheep…….none of them are gay. None.

I guess sometimes we really need to believe everything we read (that goes for you and me)

[Not3in1]

Quote (Stu @ Oct. 14 2007,18:28)

I think there are very many people who are far happier having renounced religion.

I beg you to remember that religion is not the same as a relationship with our heavenly Father. For instance, I can live without religion, I cannot, however, live without my God.

[Stu]

Hi Not3in1

I'm not gay, but of the gay people I have met, not one has ever told me that they regret their sexuality, and I don't know a single gay person who has “chosen” homosexuality. It would be like choosing your skin colour.

Wikipedia is, as you say, always not dependable. Try National Geographic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news….al.html

Or Seed Magazine:

http://seedmagazine.com/news/2006/06/the_gay_animal_kingdom.php

The Times of London:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article1288633.ece

Cambridge University Press:

http://www.cambridge.org/catalog….&ss=exc

The Australian Broadcasting Corporation:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/queercreatures/

More here:

http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm

And here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750604/

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 14 2007,18:50)

Quote (Stu @ Oct. 14 2007,18:28) I think there are very many people who are far happier having renounced religion. I beg you to remember that religion is not the same as a relationship with our heavenly Father.  For instance, I can live without religion, I cannot, however, live without my God.

I think you will find many people would call that a very fine splitting of definitions. Perhaps I should have been bolder. I have read many accounts written by people who have realised that all along they were deluding themselves and that actually there is no such thing as supernatural beings, and they are far happier with that kind of honesty, even if it robs them of a comfort blanket. Even Richard Dawkins states that he was once genuinely in a relationship with god. I can't say that for myself, I think I have always “known” the claims of Judeo-Christianity to be false, along with tarot readings, horoscopes, UFOs and tooth fairies.

Stuart

[david]

Quote

I think I have always “known” the claims of Judeo-Christianity to be false, along with tarot readings, horoscopes, UFOs and tooth fairies.

What? We're picking on the tooth fairies now?

[Stu]

Quote (david @ Oct. 14 2007,19:35)

Quote I think I have always “known” the claims of Judeo-Christianity to be false, along with tarot readings, horoscopes, UFOs and tooth fairies. What?  We're picking on the tooth fairies now?

OK. Tooth fairies are real. The rest isn't.

Stuart

[Is 1:18]

If the truth claims of tooth-fairiests turn out to have veracity the consequences for non believers with be insignificant. If the claims of christians turn out to be true then the consequences of a bad call for nonbelievers will be severe and everlasting. Stu, if you're wrong about christianity then the consequence for you will resonate throughout eternity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho9iA2pJ9SM

Peace.

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 20 2007,21:48)

If the truth claims of tooth-fairiests turn out to have veracity the consequences for non believers with be insignificant. If the claims of christians turn out to be true then the consequences of a bad call for nonbelievers will be severe and everlasting. Stu, if you're wrong about christianity then the consequence for you will resonate throughout eternity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho9iA2pJ9SM Peace.

So you are a believer in “fire insurance” then, eh? You DO know that the view of hell that mainstream Christianity has is foreign to Hebraic thought. Yet another pagan influence that crept into the Christianity.

Rome did not embrace Christianity, Christianity embraced Rome.

[Is 1:18]

I know someone who has been to hell (and back). It's real.

[Is 1:18]

I thought you had left. Didn't you start a thread about that?

[kejonn]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 20 2007,22:37)

I thought you had left. Didn't you start a thread about that?

You missed this part in my post in that thread

Quote

I will likely check back from time to time, but my contribution will be small if anything at all. Mostly, I just want to watch and see as the rest of you grow.

I have been very active at this site before I posted this. Lengthy posts, and many. My contributions have been very short and more infrequent.

If I feel led to oppose something unscriptural, I will not deny such leadings. My obedience is still required.

[Author]

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