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Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 18 2012,06:15) Quote (journey42 @ June 17 2012,06:05) Hi What is true Thats a good example, but what about this one?
Going to fortune tellers is not illegal. Having seances or having your tarot cards read is not illegal. But is it moral?
Again, as I mentioned at the end of my post to bodhitharta, questions of morality, (i.e. questions of ethics), are not always cut and dry.As far as fortune tellers, seances, and tarot card readings go, the issues can be somewhat complex. Do the people who participate think that these things are real or do they think of it like a magic show where deception is expected and appreciated?
If the participants are led to believe that these things are real, then in all likelihood, the purveyors of these trades are committing fraud and are definitely being unethical, (i.e. immoral).
But, if it so happens that the purveyors of these trades are also convinced that something real is happening, the ethics become less clear. What are the intentions of all the participants? What are the effects of the seance, etc? These are the kinds of questions that have to be answered.
Quote who decides? You decide. And so does the person who goes.
You may think it's immoral, but the people who enjoy such things may have a different opinion.
The primary reason why such things are not illegal is because people can have different opinions on this matter without causing serious problems within the community.
Quote Or speaking to a group of people about God? What kind of a reaction do you think one would get? Is the group comprised primarily of other god-believers, like a church service? Is the group a random set of people on a commuter train?
The circumstances make all the difference. Generally, it's considered quite rude to “preach” at an unwilling audience.
I would personally consider it unethical, but you may think otherwise.
In other words you like every other atheist believes morality is arbitrary, make it up as you go along depending on how you feel. Having sex with animals is wrong until your the one doing itQuote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2012,05:29) So you decide that lying is immoral based on what?
Did you read my entire post? I think that I was quite explicit about why the lying was unethical.Quote Why do you assume he wants an honest relationship with his wife? Ethics are not about what you want. It's about your relationship to those around you. As I stated quite clearly in my previous post, individuals who have no desire for relationships with other people have no need for morals. (They are often also considered psychopaths.)
Quote What if he enjoys deceit , lying, adultery and so forth he has no one to answer to and even if he gets caught so what he can just get another woman. Again, if he's a psychopath, then ethics are irrelevant to him (but not to those around him who are seeking a relationship with him). If, however, he actually wants to enjoy relationships of any kind, he will have to act accordingly.
Quote Tell me what would his moral motivation be if there is no God? Relationships with others.
Quote You see it is you that turns out to be the simpleton No, actually, you have described the one exception that I already explicitly pointed out in my previous post, (i.e. a man on a proverbial island with no relationships). Did you understand my original post?
By the way, psychopaths don't generally fear gods, so your religion will be of no use to him either.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2012,05:31) If there is no God there is no ABSOLUTE reason to care about anyones pain at all, it would serve no point for the meaning of death itself would be pointless.
That's correct. There is no absolute reason, but there are many relative reasons to care. And, since we live in a world that is based on relationships, that's much more important to our day to day living than any kind of theoretical “absolute” answer.Life is about your relationships.
Quote In other words you like every other atheist believes morality is arbitrary, make it up as you go along depending on how you feel. Having sex with animals is wrong until your the one doing it Morality is not arbitrary. It's relational. In your case, your moarlity is based on your perception of your relationship to your god. For most people, morality has a lot more to do with their relationship to other people in their community.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2012,10:26) Quote (Stu @ June 15 2012,18:04) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 15 2012,14:24) No, you are talking about “rules” not “Morals” you can very well have sex with your mother and farm animals and still get along with others so what would make those things immoral?
WiT posted this:“People who desire to live in community with other people have to behave in such a way as to not be a detriment to that community“.
Both bestiality and incest are detrimental to communities.
Stuart
How can bestiality or incest be detrimental to the community and if so why do you not feel the same way about homosexuality?
I don't necessarily think that direct consequences of a specific action are the only criterion in deciding on an ethical course of action, so I disagree that “being detrimental for a community” is the only consideration in the morality of bestiality and incest. However, the consequences of incest can be severe on possible offspring, and that goes in a direction towards the worst possible outcome for the most people, not away from it, which for me is a reasonable criterion for morality. I also feel some solidarity with our non-human cousins who are not able to give informed consent to sexual approaches from humans, making incest immoral. However you asked about what bad that does for a community (of people, presumably) and I guess it would be that communities run on trust and there is a diminution of trust when some people take advantage in a way that denies the concept of informed consent. If you are going to rape an animal, then why not a human?Homosexuality is not immoral as far as I am concerned, so how is it possible for me to comment? Exactly what are you claiming is wrong with homosexuality? I'd be guessing what you mean.
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 19 2012,15:00) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2012,05:31) If there is no God there is no ABSOLUTE reason to care about anyones pain at all, it would serve no point for the meaning of death itself would be pointless.
That's correct. There is no absolute reason, but there are many relative reasons to care. And, since we live in a world that is based on relationships, that's much more important to our day to day living than any kind of theoretical “absolute” answer.Life is about your relationships.
Quote In other words you like every other atheist believes morality is arbitrary, make it up as you go along depending on how you feel. Having sex with animals is wrong until your the one doing it Morality is not arbitrary. It's relational. In your case, your moarlity is based on your perception of your relationship to your god. For most people, morality has a lot more to do with their relationship to other people in their community.
I'd go a step further here, I think concepts of absolute morality transcend many gods. If we invented gods, and we imbued them with absolute morality, those gods are just a placeholder for the idea of absolute morality: it exists in the absence of gods because we think of morals as absolute.I certainly find the Judeo-christian god concept unspeakably immoral. Above that I would place better versions of the golden rule of Matthew 7:12, taking responsibility for the consequences of ones choices that wrong others and making it up to real humans that were wronged, not just making it up to the rather average god of the ancient Jews; honouring the honourable human trait of curiosity by not accepting any old myth as absolute truth but insisting on really knowing. I could go on, as I am sure you would believe!
Ultimately you must be right: morals are relative, but we can still call them absolute and think of them in that way without appealing to any god concept at all…
…whatever gods are supposed to be.
Stuart
Oops.. correction from two posts ago:
“I also feel some solidarity with our non-human cousins who are not able to give informed consent to sexual approaches from humans, making bestiality immoral. “
…the non-human cousins aren't quite that closely related…
STuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2012,10:31) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 18 2012,06:27) Quote (princess @ June 17 2012,10:04) What of this one, you know someone is hungry and do not feed them, then share it with a group of people. This is a concept that can be applied equally. Is this moral or unmoral to do such.
That's another good ethical dilemma.Again, the circumstance makes all the difference.
Did you personally witness this person go hungry? Did you have the means to help that person?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then for me, it's fairly straightforward to call this unethical behavior.
If on the other hand, we are talking about “kids starving in Africa” while I eat a nice meal at home, then, for me, the answer is less straightforward. For many people, this kind of ethical question will overlap with their political views.
If there is no God there is no ABSOLUTE reason to care about anyones pain at all, it would serve no point for the meaning of death itself would be pointless.
Boditharta.You hit the nail on the head,but you think they can see that?
Remember the scales in the eyes?
No God , No morals, no morals no God.
For he is the one setting that invisible line between good and evil.No man or society can do that, for they are all corrupt inside, like washed graves, white on the outside but full of dead mans bones in the inside.
wakeup.
God thought that having sex with your sister was O.K. on the part of Abraham.
God thought that giving your daughter to a gang of men to do with as they want
when, Lot did it, still made him a righteous man.
As a matter of fact God wasn't too upset with Lot for having sex with his daughters himself.God thinks that it is morally acceptable to kill people for any number of minor infractions.
God sees nothing wrong with having slaves, or beating them as long as they can get up in a couple of days.
The morals that bible god teaches are exceedingly repugnant, and yet you believe that those are more acceptable than those of someone that does not believe in your god.
You would be better saying, Know God, know no morals.
Tim
Quote (Wakeup @ June 22 2012,02:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2012,10:31) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 18 2012,06:27) Quote (princess @ June 17 2012,10:04) What of this one, you know someone is hungry and do not feed them, then share it with a group of people. This is a concept that can be applied equally. Is this moral or unmoral to do such.
That's another good ethical dilemma.Again, the circumstance makes all the difference.
Did you personally witness this person go hungry? Did you have the means to help that person?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then for me, it's fairly straightforward to call this unethical behavior.
If on the other hand, we are talking about “kids starving in Africa” while I eat a nice meal at home, then, for me, the answer is less straightforward. For many people, this kind of ethical question will overlap with their political views.
If there is no God there is no ABSOLUTE reason to care about anyones pain at all, it would serve no point for the meaning of death itself would be pointless.
Boditharta.You hit the nail on the head,but you think they can see that?
Remember the scales in the eyes?
No God , No morals, no morals no God.
For he is the one setting that invisible line between good and evil.No man or society can do that, for they are all corrupt inside, like washed graves, white on the outside but full of dead mans bones in the inside.
wakeup.
Talk about confirmation bias…Stuart
Actually it's not even that. It's refusal to engage with reality.
I guess that's what happens when someone believes the planet appeared by magic and he's going to live forever.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2012,10:31) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 18 2012,06:27) Quote (princess @ June 17 2012,10:04) What of this one, you know someone is hungry and do not feed them, then share it with a group of people. This is a concept that can be applied equally. Is this moral or unmoral to do such.
That's another good ethical dilemma.Again, the circumstance makes all the difference.
Did you personally witness this person go hungry? Did you have the means to help that person?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then for me, it's fairly straightforward to call this unethical behavior.
If on the other hand, we are talking about “kids starving in Africa” while I eat a nice meal at home, then, for me, the answer is less straightforward. For many people, this kind of ethical question will overlap with their political views.
If there is no God there is no ABSOLUTE reason to care about anyones pain at all, it would serve no point for the meaning of death itself would be pointless.
BD,What are you talking about, your God has points in not caring about how many deaths occur with humanity.
Then when humanity steps up and does what is morally right, you have the gumption to say death is meaningless due to one does not believe in your God.
No wonder humanity has gone out and tried things on their own, due to the shear fact on how you explain God.
If your holy book gave laws about how to buy, keep, and beat slaves, your holy book is disqualified as a source for developing a moral code.
Tim
Quote (princess @ June 23 2012,12:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 19 2012,10:31) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 18 2012,06:27) Quote (princess @ June 17 2012,10:04) What of this one, you know someone is hungry and do not feed them, then share it with a group of people. This is a concept that can be applied equally. Is this moral or unmoral to do such.
That's another good ethical dilemma.Again, the circumstance makes all the difference.
Did you personally witness this person go hungry? Did you have the means to help that person?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then for me, it's fairly straightforward to call this unethical behavior.
If on the other hand, we are talking about “kids starving in Africa” while I eat a nice meal at home, then, for me, the answer is less straightforward. For many people, this kind of ethical question will overlap with their political views.
If there is no God there is no ABSOLUTE reason to care about anyones pain at all, it would serve no point for the meaning of death itself would be pointless.
BD,What are you talking about, your God has points in not caring about how many deaths occur with humanity.
Then when humanity steps up and does what is morally right, you have the gumption to say death is meaningless due to one does not believe in your God.
No wonder humanity has gone out and tried things on their own, due to the shear fact on how you explain God.
I said if there is no Moral absolute it would be pointless andif there is no judgement beyond death then death itself would be meaninglessQuote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 12 2012,04:24) If your holy book gave laws about how to buy, keep, and beat slaves, your holy book is disqualified as a source for developing a moral code. Tim
There are all sorts of forms of slavery you may even be under one form or otherQuote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2012,11:15) I said if there is no Moral absolute it would be pointless andif there is no judgement beyond death then death itself would be meaningless
But there is no lack of moral absolutes. Plenty of people who don't have Imaginary Sky Friends of any kind will say they hold their ethical values as absolutes.I don't live in anticipation of some tin-pot posthumous “judgment” on me. Life is far too precious to waste worrying about the opinions of Space Beings that aren't really there.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 12 2012,11:16) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 12 2012,04:24) If your holy book gave laws about how to buy, keep, and beat slaves, your holy book is disqualified as a source for developing a moral code. Tim
There are all sorts of forms of slavery you may even be under one form or other
That is a silly word game to play Bod.
There is only one form of slavery where you buy, sell, keep and beat your slaves.Tim
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