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Quote (princess @ June 12 2012,13:24) Quote (Ed J @ June 11 2012,01:26) Quote (princess @ June 11 2012,00:28) Quote (Ed J @ June 10 2012,10:51) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 10 2012,10:30) Ed J, Your usage of the word “refute” is incorrect.
Like I said, if you have a specific point to which you would like a response, go ahead and bring it up.
OK WIT,Nothing in the bible is incorrect.
God bless
Ed J
Edj,There are many contradictions in the bible added passages, faux pas, ect. ect.
To state that the bible is not incorrect is like slamming your own hand in the door and then saying God did it to teach me a lesson.
Hi Princess,I've seen that be the case many times.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hello Edj,The contradictions or the hand slamming?
Hi Princess,The head slamming of course.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (TimothyVI @ June 10 2012,06:00) Hi Annie.
For over 50 years I said the same things that you are saying. But I eventually realized that God's word was flawed, so it couldn't possibly be from a god.
It has been a continual learning experience since then. I realized that God never did answer any of my prayers, or talk
to me like a friend. There is really no personal relationship, I had to imagine all of that stuff just like you are doing now.So don't tell me that I didn't know God, or was never a true Christian. I knew God just like you do, and it is all in your head.
Tim
Hi Tim,I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say God's Word is flawed. I know different translations of the Bible are flawed as they use incorrect words as well as having interpretations in parentheses, (which are usually based on false doctrine).
God's Word itself, however, is not flawed. The word given to the original men who wrote it inspired by the Holy Spirit is not flawed. The Bible spans a period of 4000 years, written by many different writers, and yet the message remains consistent throughout. If you have ever played the telephone game, then you know how a message can get so changed when just given to 10 people. Not to mention that over 300 prophecies written in his word have been fulfilled.
I began to deny God existed, while I was at a young age, and continued to do so for many many years. I too, used the same arguments you are using. But having a lot of tribulation in my life, and being so broken in spirit, I turned to him in desperation finally, knowing that no one on earth could help me. To my shocked amazement, I found that after seeking him, he was real.
It has been a continual learning experience since then. I do have to disagree with you once again, as God does answer my prayers, and does talk to me like a friend. And you are wrong, it is not in my head.
After Jesus baptized me with the Holy Spirit, it was amazing to me how it just seemed like blinders had been taken off my eyes. I saw and understand all things differently, the world as well as God's Word. For the first time, I did have a personal relationship with him, as is possible, as God started to reveal himself to me more and more.
The biggest thing I found he taught me was trust, as you can't have a relationship with out trust. Trusting God, someone we can't see, or touch, is the hardest thing for us humans to do and yet it is the thing he wants the most from us. He showed me, after I went through trials and tribulations, exactly where he was while I was going through them, even though I didn't see him or think he was there. It is all a matter of trusting in him. It is a common thing to man to blame God for all that goes wrong in life.
No Tim, believe me, I am a witness to his resurrection and he is true, and it is definitely not in my head! You say that you knew him like I know him. I don't know how that can be, as knowing him the way I do, I could never deny him as you are. I never said you weren't a true Christian, nor would I, that sounds like the Accuser to me.
No Tim, I have been loving and following God for well over 30 years. I have found that he is a wonderful, loving, merciful God and I would have no other!
Shalom
Quote (annie @ June 14 2012,00:07) I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say God's Word is flawed.
Here's one example:Deuteronomy 22:28-29:
Quote If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Do you think that it makes sense to have a rapist marry his victim?
There is absolutely no reason for atheists to have “Morals” why or how could for instance an atheist find it immoral to sleep with his mother?
bodhitharta,
Yes, there absolutely is a reason for atheists to have morals. It's call social cooperation. People who desire to live in community with other people have to behave in such a way as to not be a detriment to that community.
There's no need for a man living on an island by himself to have morals, but if he wants to live with other people, immorality, (i.e. anti-social behavior), is not a wise choice.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 14 2012,11:07) There is absolutely no reason for atheists to have “Morals” why or how could for instance an atheist find it immoral to sleep with his mother?
May be due to the same reason a prophet finds it alright to take a girl a third his age and marry her.What do you think BD?
Quote (princess @ June 15 2012,12:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 14 2012,11:07) There is absolutely no reason for atheists to have “Morals” why or how could for instance an atheist find it immoral to sleep with his mother?
May be due to the same reason a prophet finds it alright to take a girl a third his age and marry her.What do you think BD?
This is my whole point how do you consider that immoral? Where do you get that information that it is immoral for believers what God commands us not to do is what we consider immoral we don't just go by our feelings. So I can show in the bible or Quran where it is immoral to have sex with ones own mother but I cannot find in either where it would be immoral to have a bride at any age as long as she is taken as a bride with her parents consent or she is an orphan of warQuote (WhatIsTrue @ June 14 2012,12:53) bodhitharta, Yes, there absolutely is a reason for atheists to have morals. It's call social cooperation. People who desire to live in community with other people have to behave in such a way as to not be a detriment to that community.
There's no need for a man living on an island by himself to have morals, but if he wants to live with other people, immorality, (i.e. anti-social behavior), is not a wise choice.
No, you are talking about “rules” not “Morals” you can very well have sex with your mother and farm animals and still get along with others so what would make those things immoral?Also you said there would be no need for a secluded person to have morals so would it be fair to conclude that a person secluded could choose to have sex with the various animals he comes across and perhaps spends time torturing other animals for fun and be considered to have a good “morality”
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 15 2012,14:24) No, you are talking about “rules” not “Morals” you can very well have sex with your mother and farm animals and still get along with others so what would make those things immoral?
WiT posted this:“People who desire to live in community with other people have to behave in such a way as to not be a detriment to that community“.
Both bestiality and incest are detrimental to communities.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 15 2012,14:19) Quote (princess @ June 15 2012,12:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 14 2012,11:07) There is absolutely no reason for atheists to have “Morals” why or how could for instance an atheist find it immoral to sleep with his mother?
May be due to the same reason a prophet finds it alright to take a girl a third his age and marry her.What do you think BD?
This is my whole point how do you consider that immoral? Where do you get that information that it is immoral for believers what God commands us not to do is what we consider immoral we don't just go by our feelings. So I can show in the bible or Quran where it is immoral to have sex with ones own mother but I cannot find in either where it would be immoral to have a bride at any age as long as she is taken as a bride with her parents consent or she is an orphan of war
Really, so you would give your young daughter away, or is it a unspoken rule the younger they are the more money or dowry you get for them.So in other words you sell off you daughter to the highest bidder, it always comes down to the monies.
Most likely men that are greedy would choose the orphan girl, due to she is most likely a steal.And I can show you how society has placed a number of pedophiles in jail for taking on the same thought process.
So bottom line, your pocket gets lined with gold depending on the age of your daughter. Well get to getting there BD, money is to be made. God made sure of that.
Quote (bodhitharta @ June 15 2012,09:24) No, you are talking about “rules” not “Morals” you can very well have sex with your mother and farm animals and still get along with others so what would make those things immoral?
You are an ethical simpleton. Not everything that is immoral is illegal, and not everything that is illegal is immoral. (In simple terms, rules are not morals.)Let me give you an example.
Suppose there is a guy who tells his wife that he works late every night. He doesn't come home until midnight just about every night. Well, it turns out that he is actually going to a casino every night and gambling.
Now, it's not illegal for him to gamble, nor is it illegal for him to lie to his wife, (i.e. he won't be thrown in jail for it), but it is immoral. Why? Because his lying is detrimental to their relationship and will make it impossible for her to trust him.
As for your example about incest and bestiality, the next time that you are with a group of people, try casually mentioning to them that you enjoy incest or bestiality and see what kind of reaction you get. Just because your actions don't directly affect someone else doesn't mean that it's not anti-social. (That's why ethical questions are not always cut and dry.)
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 16 2012,02:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 15 2012,09:24) No, you are talking about “rules” not “Morals” you can very well have sex with your mother and farm animals and still get along with others so what would make those things immoral?
You are an ethical simpleton. Not everything that is immoral is illegal, and not everything that is illegal is immoral. (In simple terms, rules are not morals.)Let me give you an example.
Suppose there is a guy who tells his wife that he works late every night. He doesn't come home until midnight just about every night. Well, it turns out that he is actually going to a casino every night and gambling.
Now, it's not illegal for him to gamble, nor is it illegal for him to lie to his wife, (i.e. he won't be thrown in jail for it), but it is immoral. Why? Because his lying is detrimental to their relationship and will make it impossible for her to trust him.
As for your example about incest and bestiality, the next time that you are with a group of people, try casually mentioning to them that you enjoy incest or bestiality and see what kind of reaction you get. Just because your actions don't directly affect someone else doesn't mean that it's not anti-social. (That's why ethical questions are not always cut and dry.)
Hi What is trueThats a good example, but what about this one?
Going to fortune tellers is not illegal. Having seances or having your tarot cards read is not illegal. But is it moral? who decides?
Or speaking to a group of people about God? What kind of a reaction do you think one would get?
Or we could add that both gambling and readings are a waste of monies and should not even be considered moral.
What of this one, you know someone is hungry and do not feed them, then share it with a group of people. This is a concept that can be applied equally. Is this moral or unmoral to do such.
Quote (journey42 @ June 17 2012,06:05) Hi What is true Thats a good example, but what about this one?
Going to fortune tellers is not illegal. Having seances or having your tarot cards read is not illegal. But is it moral?
Again, as I mentioned at the end of my post to bodhitharta, questions of morality, (i.e. questions of ethics), are not always cut and dry.As far as fortune tellers, seances, and tarot card readings go, the issues can be somewhat complex. Do the people who participate think that these things are real or do they think of it like a magic show where deception is expected and appreciated?
If the participants are led to believe that these things are real, then in all likelihood, the purveyors of these trades are committing fraud and are definitely being unethical, (i.e. immoral).
But, if it so happens that the purveyors of these trades are also convinced that something real is happening, the ethics become less clear. What are the intentions of all the participants? What are the effects of the seance, etc? These are the kinds of questions that have to be answered.
Quote who decides? You decide. And so does the person who goes.
You may think it's immoral, but the people who enjoy such things may have a different opinion.
The primary reason why such things are not illegal is because people can have different opinions on this matter without causing serious problems within the community.
Quote Or speaking to a group of people about God? What kind of a reaction do you think one would get? Is the group comprised primarily of other god-believers, like a church service? Is the group a random set of people on a commuter train?
The circumstances make all the difference. Generally, it's considered quite rude to “preach” at an unwilling audience.
I would personally consider it unethical, but you may think otherwise.
Quote (princess @ June 17 2012,10:04) What of this one, you know someone is hungry and do not feed them, then share it with a group of people. This is a concept that can be applied equally. Is this moral or unmoral to do such.
That's another good ethical dilemma.Again, the circumstance makes all the difference.
Did you personally witness this person go hungry? Did you have the means to help that person?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then for me, it's fairly straightforward to call this unethical behavior.
If on the other hand, we are talking about “kids starving in Africa” while I eat a nice meal at home, then, for me, the answer is less straightforward. For many people, this kind of ethical question will overlap with their political views.
Mankind can do marvellous things,he can create great things,because we are created in the image of God,we dont create our selves.
But unfortunately there is that spirit of greed,and the spirit of selfishness; me first and the rest is up them.
And the spirit of jealousy,and the spirit of power over others.Making use of the weak to gain more for themselves.
This is human nature; but the bad side of human nature.This is what God is working on:to uproot these bad spirits in men, to create man perfect in his eyes.(for God is perfect).
Only the fear of God can get rid of all these bad spirits in man.He taught us to love our neighbour as our selves,and also to make peace,with our neighbours and our selves.
This is what the Holy bible is teaching us; and he who follow will be chosen as his children.
All evil must be uprooted,by seperating the sheep from the goats and the goats destroyed.wakeup.
Quote (Stu @ June 15 2012,18:04) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 15 2012,14:24) No, you are talking about “rules” not “Morals” you can very well have sex with your mother and farm animals and still get along with others so what would make those things immoral?
WiT posted this:“People who desire to live in community with other people have to behave in such a way as to not be a detriment to that community“.
Both bestiality and incest are detrimental to communities.
Stuart
How can bestiality or incest be detrimental to the community and if so why do you not feel the same way about homosexuality?Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 16 2012,02:58) Quote (bodhitharta @ June 15 2012,09:24) No, you are talking about “rules” not “Morals” you can very well have sex with your mother and farm animals and still get along with others so what would make those things immoral?
You are an ethical simpleton. Not everything that is immoral is illegal, and not everything that is illegal is immoral. (In simple terms, rules are not morals.)Let me give you an example.
Suppose there is a guy who tells his wife that he works late every night. He doesn't come home until midnight just about every night. Well, it turns out that he is actually going to a casino every night and gambling.
Now, it's not illegal for him to gamble, nor is it illegal for him to lie to his wife, (i.e. he won't be thrown in jail for it), but it is immoral. Why? Because his lying is detrimental to their relationship and will make it impossible for her to trust him.
As for your example about incest and bestiality, the next time that you are with a group of people, try casually mentioning to them that you enjoy incest or bestiality and see what kind of reaction you get. Just because your actions don't directly affect someone else doesn't mean that it's not anti-social. (That's why ethical questions are not always cut and dry.)
So you decide that lying is immoral based on what? Why do you assume he wants an honest relationship with his wife?What if he enjoys deceit , lying, adultery and so forth he has no one to answer to and even if he gets caught so what he can just get another woman. Tell me what would his moral motivation be if there is no God?
You see it is you that turns out to be the simpleton
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 18 2012,06:27) Quote (princess @ June 17 2012,10:04) What of this one, you know someone is hungry and do not feed them, then share it with a group of people. This is a concept that can be applied equally. Is this moral or unmoral to do such.
That's another good ethical dilemma.Again, the circumstance makes all the difference.
Did you personally witness this person go hungry? Did you have the means to help that person?
If the answer to both questions is yes, then for me, it's fairly straightforward to call this unethical behavior.
If on the other hand, we are talking about “kids starving in Africa” while I eat a nice meal at home, then, for me, the answer is less straightforward. For many people, this kind of ethical question will overlap with their political views.
If there is no God there is no ABSOLUTE reason to care about anyones pain at all, it would serve no point for the meaning of death itself would be pointless.
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