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Hi Gadam,
YOU: I am not limiting to Hebrew Bible alone in fact I am searching all religions.
And I am comparing the NT with its original source Hebrew Bible.
ME: Unless you change your carnal-minded mentality, NOTHING OF GOD, which is dominant in the OT.
You will neither see nor understand God’s truth!
A MYSTERIOUS SPIRIT, HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN, NOT EVEN A BEING, NOT EVEN WITH A NAME!
I AM WHAT I AM, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!
PLUS THAT HE TERRORIZED THE HEBREW PEOPLE, THE ONLY WAY TO BE ACCEPTED BY THE JEWS, IN A WAY, AS THEIR HEART WAS OF STONE, AND ONLY THROUGH “MOSES” AND HIS PHYSICAL PROCESS, THAT THE JEWS WERE READY TO HAVE A KIND OF A RELATIONSHIP.
Now God was ONLY in the position to call Himself the only GOD,
BUT NEVER THE TRUE GOD, throughout the OT.
WHY???
A title which Satan, ALSO LIKE GOD, a mysterious spirit, hidden and unknown, in many others called himself also GOD. The fact that God throughout the OT declared that eventually,
THEY WILL KNOW HIM THAT HE IS GOD!!! WHEN???
YOU: I find much deviation on concepts of God and Messiah.
ME: WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT!
YOU ARE LIMITING EVEN GOD!
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.
10And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
SEARCH GOD IN THE OT FROM THE SPIRITUAL SIDE!
THE TRUTH!
NOW JESUS IS THE TRUTH!
THE ONLY TRUTH!
THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Adam,
Thank you for your reply.
You said:
As we read the above portion of scripture it is clear that the Lord(Yahweh) alone God and no one else is found in this text of Hebrew Bible. You want to see Jesus the supposed Messiah also as Yahweh in these words but that will be twisting the scriptures which was freely done by the NT writers.
One question to you Adam, do you see in the NT that the Father is also identifying His
Son as YHVH? I’m not asking you if you agree that the Son is also YHVH, I’m just asking if you agree that it appears that way specifically from Heb. 1. Please just give me a “yes” or a “no.”LU
P.S. I’ll respond to your comment about winning “against” non-trinitarians after I have gotten your simple “yes” or “no.”
One question to you Adam, do you see in the NT that the Father is also identifying His
Son as YHVH? I’m not asking you if you agree that the Son is also YHVH, I’m just asking if you agree that it appears that way specifically from Heb. 1. Please just give me a “yes” or a “no.”LU
P.S. I’ll respond to your comment about winning “against” non-trinitarians after I have gotten your simple “yes” or “no.”
Yes Sis Kathi, my answer is “Yes” only
Hebrews 1:8-12.
8“But unto the Son HE says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9. YOU have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore, God, even your God, has anointed YOU with the oil of gladness above YOUR fellows.
10. AND YOU, Lord, in the beginning, have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of YOUR hands:
11. They shall perish, but YOU remain, and they all shall wax old as does a garment.
12. And as a vesture shall YOU fold them up, and they shall be changed: but YOU are the same, and YOUR years shall not fail.”
But this is complete deviation from the original text in Hebrew Bible which is talking about Lord (Yahweh) in
Psalm 102:
12 But you, O Lord (Yahweh), are enthroned forever;
your name endures to all generations.
15 The nations will fear the name of the Lord,
and all the kings of the earth your glory.
16 For the Lord will build up Zion;
he will appear in his glory.25 Long ago you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you endure;
they will all wear out like a garment.Hi Adam,
Thank you for your reply regarded here:
One question to you Adam, do you see in the NT that the Father is also identifying His
Son as YHVH? I’m not asking you if you agree that the Son is also YHVH, I’m just asking if you agree that it appears that way specifically from Heb. 1. Please just give me a “yes” or a “no.”LU
P.S. I’ll respond to your comment about winning “against” non-trinitarians after I have gotten your simple “yes” or “no.”
Your answer is this:
Yes Sis Kathi, my answer is “Yes” only
That is really great that we agree on that!
Hi Adam,
You said in response to a recent post:
Coming to Deut 10: 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe, 18 who executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and who loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. 19 You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. 20 You shall fear the Lord your God; him alone you shall worship; to him you shall hold fast, and by his name you shall swear. 21 He is your praise; he is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome things that your own eyes have seen.
As we read the above portion of scripture it is clear that the Lord(Yahweh) alone God and no one else is found in this text of Hebrew Bible. You want to see Jesus the supposed Messiah also as Yahweh in these words but that will be twisting the scriptures which was freely done by the NT writers.
The question is this, is YHVH one person alone or is YHVH two persons or even more alone? I’m not suggesting that there are two or more completely different YHVH families. I’m understanding one family of YHVH which equally includes the Father and the Son, our one God and one Lord, this family also includes all believers in Christ as the adopted sons.
Do you believe that there is a family of God? If so, who are the members of that family?
You said:
I want you first win against the non-trinitarians because they also quote the same NT to negate your assumptions.
Can you be more specific? Also, it is not my desire to spend much time on here for years to win “against” anyone, that would not be a “win” for me. I’m going for the “win/win” where everyone wins because we are united in truth.
Blessings, LU
Do you believe that there is a family of God? If so, who are the members of that family?
Hi Sis Kathi, thanks for your reply to my post. But sorry I have not found any thing on the family of God in the Hebrew Bible.
Can you be more specific? Also, it is not my desire to spend much time on here for years to win “against” anyone, that would not be a “win” for me. I’m going for the “win/win” where everyone wins because we are united in truth.
I only meant that your concept on two Yahwehs is not accepted by the non-trinitarians like Proclaimer, Mike and others. Also they too quote the same NT to support their own views.
Cheer up…
Hi Adam,
Like I said, I speak of one YHVH who is two persons, not two persons who are of different YHVH families. There is one family of YHVH. The Father and His Son are the two members with eternal and divine essence. Do you think that Proclaimer and Mike don’t believe that there is a family of YHVH?
Do you not think that the OT teaches that God is not a “father?” Have you read this:
Prov 30:3I have not learned wisdom, and I have no knowledge of the Holy One. 4Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in His hands? Who has bound up the waters in His cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is the name of His Son— surely you know!
LU….. Jesus said clearly , “call no man on earth your father, for one is “your” father who is in heaven”.
And again, He told us to pray like this , “our” Father Who art in heaven”….he includes himself by using the word “OUR”.and again, he said, “your” father in heaven knows you have need of these things”
and again he said , “I am going to YOUR God “AND” MY God , Your father, “AND” MY FATHER. THAT ALONE DESTROYS YOUR WHOLE TRINITARIAN TEACHINGS, OF the SEPARATION OF JESUS FROM HIS HUMAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
So if Jesus said his God and our God, HIS, Father and our Father is the exact same being, what makes you think he is a separate class Of being then we are, Jesus sure didn’t think that, or say himself at lest. But he did say he was a Son of man also over 80 times in my bible, Is the some how missing in your bible? Why not try to show us in what way was he a son of man for a change.
No where does any true scripture say Jesus is a God, You have the two words for Lord mixed up, the word for lord in Hebrew is “Adoni” any human ruler or magistrate. , the word LORD in Hebrew is “Adonia” , meaning the “almighty God” . They both reflect authority, except on is much higher then the other. Your lack of understanding hat s he source of much of your confusion ,IMO.peace and love to you and yours…………gene
The word Lord is used for THE FATHER as well as the SON.
THE LORD GOD IN OT
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.(GENESIS)
THE LORD GOD IN NT
Marc
During that time,
a scribe came up to Jesus to ask him:
“Which is the first of all the commandments? ”
Jesus answered him this way:
“Here is the first one:
Listen, Israel:
the Lord our God is the only Lord.
You will love the Lord your God
with all your heart, with all your soul,
with all your mind and with all your strength.
And here is the second:
You will love your neighbor as yourself.
There is no greater command than these. ”The Son of God as Lord in NT
John13:
[14] If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.
Rev.22
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.The word Lord is used for THE FATHER as well as the SON.
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
There it is. God is greater than Lord because God designated who would be Lord.
Yes, YHWH is translated as LORD in the Old Testament.
And kurios is translated as Lord in the New Testament.
But think of Joseph. He was made Lord over Egypt. But he didn’t have lordship over the Pharaoh.
Except of course we know that it was God that made him Lord, so in that sense he was probably above Pharaoh.
Now hurry back to my father and say to him, ‘This is what your son Joseph says: God has made me lord of all Egypt. Come down to me; don’t delay.
Let us not get confused over words and be led into false doctrines to explain away the confusion.
That is how the Trinity Doctrine was invented.
Paul spelled it out for us.
For us, there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why is that no enough for us?
The word Lord is used for THE FATHER as well as the SON.
And of Joseph and others.
Including the landlord you may have paid rent to.
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…
Like I said, I speak of one YHVH who is two persons, not two persons who are of different YHVH families. There is one family of YHVH. The Father and His Son are the two members with eternal and divine essence. Do you think that Proclaimer and Mike don’t believe that there is a family of YHVH?
Hi Sis Kathi, thanks for your reply to my post. Sorry I am not for this idea of Family of Yahweh, Father and Son. Yes I think that Proclaimer, Mike and other non-trinitarians don’t believe this idea of Family of Yahweh.
Do you not think that the OT teaches that God is not a “father?” Have you read this:
Prov 30:3I have not learned wisdom, and I have no knowledge of the Holy One. 4Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in His hands? Who has bound up the waters in His cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is the name of His Son— surely you know!
Yes God is called Father in few occasions in Hebrew Bible. One example Mal 2:10
Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our ancestors?
Coming to Prov 30:31, it is talking about a saying or parable type of questioning on wisdom. It is not about God’s literal Son as imagined by Christianity. I had already replied on this verse on the other thread in this forum. Yes God called Israel as his first born son in Ex 4:22
Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: Israel is my firstborn son.
Even he called David’s son Solomon as his son in 2 Sam 7:15
I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. When he commits iniquity, I will punish him with a rod such as mortals use, with blows inflicted by human beings.
And God called King of Israel as his son on the day Coronation in Ps 2:7
I will tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have begotten you.But in all these scriptures God being mentioned as father and calling human beings as his sons and do not make them as God’s literal sons as imagined by Christianity. So we need to interpret Prov 30:31 on these lines only.
Thank you….Adam
Hi Gadam AND all
Pleased Read AND be blessed
Daniel 9:24 – Seventy weeks have been appointed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to put an end to transgressions and an end to sins, to atone for iniquity and to bring about eternal righteousness, to seal the vision and the prophet , and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
The word “fixed” means, in Biblical Hebrew, to be “cut off.” The “seventy weeks” are therefore taken out of the 2300 days, and are given to the Jews as a last opportunity to repent as a nation.
Each week has 7 days, and 70 times 7 = 490. Each day symbolizes a year in Bible prophecy (see Ezekiel 4: 6; Numbers 14:34). Therefore, we have 490 years “cut off” from the 2300 years as a special opportunity for the people of Daniel. (The Hebrew clearly says “weeks” and most scholars see literal years here, thus confirming the day-year application).
During these 490 years, some wonderful events must take place:
End the transgression (stop the crimes)
Put an end to sins
Make reconciliation for iniquity (atone for sin)God will give His people the opportunity to fill the cup with their iniquities, culminating after thousands of years of rebellion in their murder against His Son. But His death will not only top off their “transgressions”, it will “put an end to sins, atone for faults and bring eternal righteousness.” And the heavenly sanctuary, including the Most Holy Place, must be “anointed” or consecrated for the inauguration of the true High Priest, Christ Himself.
The desire of every true Jewish woman was to be the mother of this Messiah. Whenever a boy was born, parents were to rejoice, hoping that he could become the Savior. Finally, He was to come “when the time was fulfilled (Galatians 4: 4).
As the moon reflects the light of the glorious sun, so the sacrificial services of the Jewish temple reflected the glory of Christ’s redemptive work. But the animal offerings were only a symbol or a type. The Lamb of God was to come Himself at the end of 490 years. “He himself is an atoning victim for our sins, not only for our own, but also for those of the whole world” (1 John 2: 2). His coming as Savior truly brings “everlasting righteousness” to all who believe, and receive Him into their hearts.
How joyful for Daniel to hear these blessed words, bearers of hope! Finally the Gospel comes to Him. After such long periods of darkness and sin, the miserable man is about to have a mighty hand stretched out to pull him out of the abyss. The reason Jesus specially asks us to “read” Daniel “is why when you see the abomination of desolation, of which the prophet Daniel spoke, established in a holy place, – he who reads be careful! (Matthew 24:15), is that special data for understanding the Gospel is included in this book.
Daniel 9:25 – Know it then, and understand! From the time when the word announced that Jerusalem will be rebuilt until the Anointed One to the Leader, seven weeks ago; in sixty-two weeks the squares and the ditches will be re-established, but in dire times.
Now we see the event which marks both the beginning of the 490 years and the 2300 years: “the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem” at the end of the captivity of the Jews in Babylon. When is this “decree” promulgated? Fortunately, the exact terms of the decree have been preserved for us by the wisdom of God. We find it in Ezra: Ezra 7: 11-26. This decree grants full and complete permission to rebuild the city and restore Temple services. It is the only decree that fulfills the prophecy. This decree was promulgated in 457 BC. J.-C.
It is extraordinary to see that the years prophesied by the angel correspond to historical events. “Seven weeks, or 49 years, were assigned to build the city and the wall. Exactly on that date, 49 years later, we are brought to the events of Nehemiah chapter 13, when the city and the wall were rebuilt and the consecrated people. This takes place in 408 BC.
Until the coming of the “Prince-Messiah”, or Christ, sixty-two weeks must be added, making a total of sixty-nine weeks. Sixty-nine weeks of years equals 483 years. In other words, Christ was to come to Israel and become the “Anointed One” at His baptism, exactly 483 years after the promulgation of the decree permitting the reconstruction of Jerusalem in 457 BC. This is what the angel revealed to Daniel.
These 483 years end in the year 27 AD. Luke tells us what happened that year: “All the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized; and while He was praying, heaven opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in bodily form
, like a dove. And a voice uttered these words from heaven: You are My beloved Son; in You I have placed all My affection “(Luke 3:21, 22).
Immediately after, He began His ministry: Jesus began to preach the gospel of the kingdom with force, saying, “the times are fulfilled” (Mark 1:14, 15). Surely, Jesus was calling attention to the extraordinary fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 9:25! The long wait for the Messiah was coming to an end. The people should have known if the pastors had been faithful in their teaching.
Daniel 9:26 – After the sixty-two weeks an anointed will be cut off, and He will have no successor. A ruler’s people who come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, and their end will come as a flood; it is decided that the devastation will last until the end of the war.
The Jews who had sinned so gravely before being taken captive to Babylon had been worse than their fathers who had rejected and killed the ancient prophets. They “cut off”, murdered the Messiah who had come to save them! “She came to his own, and his own did not receive her” (John 1:11). But He wasn’t cut off for Himself. There was no sin in Him. He died for others. He never committed sin, nothing that deserves death. Even Pilate said of Him: “I find no fault in Him”. He was cut off for our sins (Isaiah 53: 8).
The angel Gabriel accurately predicts the exact time when the Messiah was to be sacrificed by the people. Note the following verse:
Daniel 9:27 – He will make a strong covenant with many for a week, and during half the week he will cease the sacrifice and the offering; the devastator will do the most abominable things, until the ruin and what has been resolved fall upon the devastator.
We have already considered sixty-nine weeks out of the seventy. During the last week of seven years, the Messiah Himself and His apostles will work one last time to save the Jewish nation. In the middle of this seven-year “week”, Christ will be lifted up on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, and “He will cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.” In other words, earthly services in the sanctuary will cease (Hebrews 10: 4-9).
Half of seven is three and a half. Jesus’ ministry lasted exactly three and a half years, at the end of which He was crucified. We can be sure of this by a careful study of the four Gospels. It is evident that He was baptized in the fall of AD 27, and was crucified at the time of his fourth Passover, an event which is always in the spring. Reliable evidence places the crucifixion of our Lord in the spring of the year 31. It is reported that a Roman consul, Senator Aurélius Cassiodorus, wrote: “During the consulate of Tiberius Caesar August V and Aelius Sejanus (31 AD J) .-C.) Our Lord Jesus Christ suffered on the eighth day of the April Calandes (March 25) while there was an eclipse of the sun such as never before, neither before nor after “. . (3)
For the remainder of the seven years of mercy bestowed on the hardheartedness of the Jewish nation, let us know that the Lord did not condemn them because they crucified the Son of God, but they ultimately condemned themselves in refusing to repent of this sin.
For another three and a half years the apostles preached only to the Jews. Jesus Himself had commanded them: “Go not to the Gentiles, and enter not into the cities of the Samaritans; rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10: 5-6). They were to be His witnesses first in Jerusalem and all Judea (Acts 1: 8), and only then in Samaria and to the ends of the earth. So He would “confirm the covenant with many for a week,” seven years.
Three and a half years after the crucifixion (“half of the week”) we arrive in the fall of 34 AD. In this year, the Jewish nation finally and completely rejected the merciful call of the Holy Spirit, by the murder of Stephen (Acts 7). The Jews did not realize that their act was a fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Their 490 years of opportunity were taken away. The call full of grace from Heaven had been despised until the end. The sin of pride and unbelief is so cruel! Henceforth we find the apostles declaring to the Jews: “To you first shall the word of God be preached; but, since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are let us turn to the Gentiles “(Acts 13:46).
Since that day, the work done by the Holy Spirit of God among the “Gentiles” has been wonderful. Among all “race, tongue and people”, the Good News of the Savior who came “to put an end to sin and atone for faults” is proclaimed. But the door of grace will not remain there
insi open forever. Soon the last opportunity will be offered to all the inhabitants of the earth. There will be a “completion,” an “end of it all … like a flood.”
When Jesus was crucified, the great temple was abandoned by God forever. “Your house is left deserted,” Jesus said, although the Jews did not understand it. The veil that separated the holy place from the most holy place was torn from top to bottom by an invisible hand (Matthew 23:38; 27:51). “The sacrifice and oblation” ceased once and for all with the offering of the Lamb of God as a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, although the empty forms persisted for a few more years due to the unbelief of the Jews . Finally, in 70 AD. AD, the “people of the Prince to come”, the Roman soldiers, arrived and completely destroyed both the city of Jerusalem and the splendid temple; the end was a “desolation”.
We are living our last hour of opportunity. Soon the work of judgment, represented by the cleansing of the sanctuary, will be completed forever. Soon the Lamb of God, who has become our High Priest and Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, will present His blood for the purification and salvation of the last human soul who repents and believes. The Lord is patient a little longer by grace. “The Lord is not long in fulfilling the promise, as some believe; but He is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but wanting all to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3 : 9). Don’t you want to come to the Lord when the time is right? “Now is the auspicious time, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6: 2). The very last page of the Bible emphasizes the invitation: “Let whoever will take the water of life free of charge” (Revelation 22:17).
No man, not even the angels in Heaven, knows the day and hour in which the High Priest will have completed His work as Savior from sin (see Matthew 24:36). On that day, men will do their daily work as men did in the days of Noah and Lot. “For in the days leading up to the Flood, the men ate and drank, and married and married their children, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they did not suspect anything, until the Flood came and swept them all away; so it will be at the coming of the Son of man “(Matthew 24:38, 39). As I write these lines, as you read them, that solemn hour that fixes our destiny may come. Do we not pray to be judged “worthy”. “Watch therefore and pray at all times, that you may have strength to escape all these things which shall come to pass, and to appear to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:36).
Lord, be patient with us today! You don’t want any of us to perish. Lead us to repentance, through your Holy Spirit (4). The sounds of commerce, of daily life, of marriage, of our various occupations such as planting and building (5), ring in our ears. Oh, let us hear that You are knocking softly on the door of our hearts (6). Direct our gaze to the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, which is our sin, my sin (7). We pray in the name of Jesus. Amen.
(1) In English, we only have one word for “vision” in this chapter. But in Hebrew, the language of Daniel, there are two words: chazon only means a prophetic vision where the prophet sees a symbolically understandable action, such as beasts and horns. The other word for “vision” is mareh, which literally means “an apparition”, and refers to what is ordinarily seen by the people or by angels. In Daniel 8: 1, 2, 15, chazon is used to refer to the prophetic action Daniel testifies about the ram, the goat and then the little horn that becomes “exceedingly big”. The second word mareh is used in the conversation he hears and reports between the two celestial beings (chapter 8: 13, 14) when he asks “how long” will last the vision on the “daily” and “the abomination of desolation “? The answer came “2300 evenings and mornings”. In Daniel 8:26, the angel refers to it, saying, “and the vision (mareh) of the evenings and mornings (2300 days) is true.” Daniel adds in verse 27: “I was amazed because of the vision (mareh) and did not understand it”. In other words, Gabriel explained the meaning of “vision-chazon”, but did not explain the “vision-mareh” of 2300 days. When he returns, in Daniel 9, he says to Daniel: “Take the word and understand the vision” (mareh). So he began to tell her about the 70 weeks. So, it is clear that the 70 weeks is an explanation of the 2300 days, and is part of it.
(2) The original Old Testament in Hebrew was not divided into paragraphs or even verses as in our modern Bibles. The ve
rsets and paragraphs have been introduced by translators for convenience. Translators have not always understood the real meaning of these prophecies.
(3) Uriah Smith, Daniel and the Apocalypse, revised (Washington, D.C – Southern Publishing, 1944, p. 215.
(4) 2 Peter 3: 9
(5) Luke 17:27, 28
(6) Revelation 3:20
(7) John 1:29
Hi Berean, it is the the interpretation of SDA Church and Christianity on Dan 9:24-27 not Jewish one.
Gadam
I promise you BEFORE GOD, BEFORE JESUS CHRIST AND THE HOLY ANGELS THAT THIS IS THE RIGHT INTERPRETATION.
God bless you
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