- This topic has 263 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 1 week ago by
.
- Posts
Carme
Don’t forger that:
- The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.( John 3:35)
- He received EVERYTHING from the Father.
- John 13: 3
Jesus, who knew that the Father had given all things into his hand, that he had come from God, and was going to God,John 17: 2
as you have given him power over all flesh, that he may grant eternal life to all whom you have given him.
HI Gene,
YOU: You tell us Jesus preexisted, but as what, you don’t know, nor does your fellow teachers the Trinitarians know either.
Read, but for a change don’t let your carnal-minded reasoning overrules you!
Colossians `1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,….
God Gene, IS AN “INVISIBLE” SPIRIT to the extent that not even the spiritual realms COULD SEE GOD.
Nevertheless, God ETERNALLY possesses HIS OWN IMAGE, and this image WAS/IS ETERNALLY
JESUS CHRIST: Confirmed in
John 17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,
with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.
And also in
John6:62If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 17:5 ABOVE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO JESUS’GLORIFICATION ON EARTH, John13:31-32
JESUS ETERNALLY THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD HIDDEN FROM THE HEAVENLY REALMS,
REVEALED HIMSELF AS THE TRUTH ON EARTH,
Luke 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when
the Son of man shall be revealed.
PRECISELY ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS AS THE SON MAN ON EARTH, SATAN’S PLANET THROUGH ADAM’S SIN,!
BY WHICH DEATH, FROM THAT MOMENT ON
JESUS CHRIST BECAME THE SOVEREIGN RULER JUSTIFIED OVER GOOD AND EVIL, OVER DEATH AND LIFE, AND OVER SPIRIT AND FLESH ALL OVER THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE.
JESUS RULED EARTH JUSTIFIED AS THE SOLE SPIRIT AND LIFE SOURCE EMBODIED IN ALL CREATURES NO MATTER WHO AND WHAT TILL PENTECOST. Luke 17:20-37
UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME, SATAN TOOK IT FOR GRANTED THAT HE WAS THE LIFE SOURCE OF ALL THOSE WHO WERE EVIL, HIS SUBJECTS, AND THIS CURSED PLANET. Mark 11:12-14
JESUS ON HIS DEATH PURIFIED ALL EVIL BY HIS OWN BLOOD AND RECREATED SPIRITUALLY ALL CREATION ANEW WITH HIS UNIQUE GLORIFIED SPIRIT, John 12:32
POURED ALL OVER THE ENTIRE CREATION proverbs 1:23
A UNIQUE SPIRIT ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH, Luke 24;39
THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’DIVINE NATURE, THE SON OF GOD, AND
“THE WORD” JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE, THE SON OF MAN, INTEGRATED AND BECAME,
TWO IN ONE FLESH John13:31-32, Genesis 2:24 IN
JESUS CHRIST
GODMAN ON EARTH!
GOD’S KINGDOM CAME and GOD’S WILL WAS ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN!
THE WORLD WAS THE NEW PARADISE ALL PERFECT BY JESUS OWN BLOOD TILL PENTECOST.
THE END OF THE OLD CARNAL LAW OF MOSES AND THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW ETERNAL SPIRITUAL LAW UNDER
JESUS CHRIST.
COMMENCED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ON PENTECOST SENT ON JESUS’ DEMAND FROM THE FATHER.
WHILE SATAN, THE SUPPOSED RULER OF THIS PLANET, WAS LOCKED IN HELL TILL PENTECOST FROM THEN ON SUBJECT TO JESUS CHRIST.
GOD THE FATHER A SPIRIT COULD IN NO WAY MANIFEST HIMSELF PHYSICALLY ON EARTH, EXCEPT EMBODIED IN HIS SON!
AS HE WAS ETERNALLY.
John14:10 Do you not believe,
that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
The words that I speak to you,
I SPEAK not of myself.
But the Father who abideth in me,
he doth the works.
Gene, Jesus in the bove declared that
THE WORDS THAT HE SPEAKS, ARE NOT HIS ORIGIN,
OBVIOUS THEY ARE THE FATHER’S ORIGIN,
SPOKEN BY THE FATHER FROM WITHIN JESUS’BODY
“THE WORD” OF GOD!
EVERY TIME JESUS OPENS HIS MOUTH!
OK, Gene?
YOU: if you don’t believe that Jesus is, even now, a flesh being as he was born, you are an Antichrist, just as they are also.
THAT’S THE BIGGEST LIE EVER PRONOUNCED Gene!
YOU SIMPLY DECLARED THAT GOD THE FATHER SENT HIS SON ON EARTH AND
ACHIEVED NOTHING!
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth:
it shall not return to me void,
but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
2Corinthians 5:16 16Wherefore henceforth, we know no man according to the flesh.
And if we have known Christ according to the flesh;
but now we know him so no longer.
17If then any be in Christ a new creature,
the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new.
JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH FURNISHED BY THE FATHER. HIS OWN SUBSTANCE HEBREWS 1:3.
NOT OF EARTH! SATANIC!!! Asserted by Jesus in
John 14:30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and
in me he hath not anything.
HE RETURNED BACK TO THE FATHER WITH
A GLORIFIED SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!
YOU:You tell us Jesus preexisted, but as what, you don’t know, nor does your fellow teachers the Trinitarians know either.
READ HEREUNDER Gene,
YOU HAVE WHAT YOU ASKED FOR, ONCE YOU READ THE SCRIPTURE HEREUNDER, BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST YOU MUST DESTROY YOUR
CARNAL-MINDED REASONING WHICH YOU ARE STAGNATED WITH.
WITH EVERY RESPECT!
Colossians 1:16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 17And he is before all, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: 19Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 20And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven.
MORE TO COME
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel……Read what Irenaeus said in CA 185 AD. …..because that is exactly the way I believe. Jesus was and is not a God of any kind. He did not preexist his existence on this earth either. All your trinitarian teachings are lies and are not found in the true gospel of Jesus, or the Apostles, or anywhere in scriptures as you present it. Your teachings only affirms to me you haven even begun to understand the truth of God or the scriptures yet.
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Carmel……..I said Jesus is even now a flesh being, then you said, “I believe Jesus accomplished nothing by saying that” . I believe Exactly as Jesus said, ‘the son of man (Jesus ) could do “nothing of himself”, but the Father who is “in” him done the works”, question is do you ‘truly’ believe what Jesus himself said? You people worship and say he is your God, but don’t actually believe what he said. So Who is the “liar” here, Me or you “trinitarians”?
Carmel……. Go and read what, Ireneaus wrote in ( ca. 185 BC ) as Proclaimer posted here , and that is “exactly” the way I see and understand it.
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Gene …..
THE SON IS THE REFLECTION OF GOD’S GLORY, THE EVEN FOOTPRINT OF HIS PERSON …..
HE IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER
HE WAS IN THE BIGINNING WITH GOD AND HE WAS GOD.
EVERYTHING WAS DONE BY HIM, AND NOTHING THAT WAS DONE, HAS BEEN DONE WITHOUT HIM ……
AND HE WAS MADE FLESH FOR US.And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hi Gene,
YOU: I believe Exactly as Jesus said, ‘the son of man (Jesus ) could do “nothing of himself”, but the Father who is “in” him done the works”,
ME: What does JESUS CONFIRM by that statement?
THAT THE FATHER COULD DO NOTHING ALL BY HIMSELF!
John 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath,
are mine.
Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and show it to you.
NO FATHER NO JESUS, NO JESUS NO FATHER.
John10: 30 I and the Father are one.
31The Jews then took up stones to stone him. 32Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? 33The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy;
and because that thou, being a man,
maketh thyself God.
Peac and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Gadam,
YOU: Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years.
Of course Jerusalem and Judah have not existed since the “days of eternity”!! Thus the translation must follow the logic.
ME: What if the names JUDAH and JERUSALEM are used
METAPHORICALLY?
That would be a completely different story NO?
Read Jesus metaphorical language hereunder IN BLUE:
Luke 13:31 The same day, there came some of the Pharisees, saying to him: Depart, and get thee hence, for Herod hath a mind to kill thee. 32And he said to them: Go and tell that FOX Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I am consummated.
33Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following,
because it cannot be that a prophet ( A CLEAR REFERENCE TO HIMSELF)
PERISHES, out of Jerusalem.
NOW JESUS DIED OUT OF JERUSALEM,
BUT WHEN ONE UNDERSTANDS THE METAPHOR LANGUAGE USED BY JESUS, THE MESSAGE IS NOT ONLY COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUT PRECISELY
THE TRUTH!
Of what Jesus meant to say!
34Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent to thee,
WHO IN ACTUAL FACT STONED AND KILLED TH PROPHETS?
how often would I have gathered thy children as the bird doth her brood under her wings,
and thou wouldest not?
WHO IN ACTUAL FACT ARE THE CHILDREN OF JERUSALEM??
WHY JESUS DIRECTED HIS SPEECH TO THE FEMININE???
35Behold your house shall be left to you desolate.
WHAT and WHO IS THE HOUSE OF JERUSALEM and HOW DESOLATE???
And I say to you, that you shall not see me ( IN WHAT WAY???) till the time come,
when you shall say: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
MY QUESTION IS
JUDAH and JERUSALEM are a clear reference
TO WHAT???
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
HI Gene,
YOU:Carmel……Read what Irenaeus said in CA 185 AD. …..because that is exactly the way I believe. Jesus was and is not a God of any kind. He did not preexist his existence on this earth either.
ME: Read, AGAIN THE SCRIPTURE THAT I POSTED, and IGNORE ALL ELSE!
AND I REPEAT
BUT for a change don’t let your carnal-minded reasoning overrules you!
Colossians `1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,….
God Gene, IS AN “INVISIBLE” SPIRIT to the extent that not even the spiritual realms COULD SEE GOD.
Nevertheless, God ETERNALLY possesses HIS OWN IMAGE, and this image WAS/IS ETERNALLY
JESUS CHRIST: Confirmed in
John 17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself,
with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.
And also in
John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
ONE MORE CEAR SCRIPTURE Gene:
Ephesians 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it,
but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.
WHEN DID JESUS DESCEND FIRST??? I TELL YOU Gene;
JESUS DESCENDED FROM THE FATHER AS A SPIRIT
SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8
PREDICTED IN THE VISION IN
Zecharaiah 3:1 And the Lord (1) shewed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord: (1) and Satan stood on his right hand to be his adversary. 2And the Lord (1) said to Satan:
The Lord (2) rebuke thee, O Satan: and
the Lord (3) that chose Jerusalem (metaphorical) rebuke thee:
Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
(slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world, Rev.13:8 JESUS’ PRE-EXISTENCE!!!)
3And Jesus was clothed with filthy garments: ( WITH ALL THE NTIRE SINS PAST PRESENT FUTURE, JESUS PRE-EXISTENCE)
and he stood before the face of the angel. 4Who answered, and said to them that stood before him, saying: Take away the filthy garments from him. And he said to him: Behold I have taken away thy iniquity, (JESUS’ BAPTISM, SATAN REMOVED AND MADE ROOM FOR JESUS’ MISSION) and have clothed thee with the change of garments. (JESUS CLOTHED WITH THE PURE FLESH DIVINE BODY ESTABLISHED DURING THE PERFECT HIDDEN YEARS OF HIS LIFE SUPPORTED BY THE FATHER FROM HIS CONCEPTION.) 5And he said: Put a clean mitre upon his head: and they put a clean mitre upon his head, ( THE HOLY SPIRIT) and clothed him with garments, and the angel of the Lord stood.
6And the angel of the Lord protested to Jesus, saying: 7Thus saith the Lord of hosts: If thou wilt walk in my ways, and Beep my charge, (PROCLAIM THE TUTH AND THE GOSPEL) thou also shalt judge my house, (THE HUMAN RACE, THE ENTIRE CREATURES CHILDREN OF GOD, ) and shalt keep my courts, ( GODSHIP IN CHRIST, GODMAN) and I will give thee some of them that are now present here to walk with thee.( THE APPOSTLES)
8Hear, O Jesus thou high priest, then and thy friends that dwell before thee, for they are portending men: for behold I WILL BRING MY SERVANT THE ORIENT. 9For behold the stone that I have laid before Jesus: upon one stone there are seven eyes:
behold I will grave the graving thereof, (THE WRITTEN GOSPEL OF THE SPIRITUAL LAW IN CHRIST, WHICH ENDED MOSES’ CARNAL LAW) saith the Lord of hosts: and
I will take away the iniquity of that land in one day.
(ON JESUS’DEATH ON THE CROSS)
10In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, every man shall call his friend under the vine and under the fig tree. (the entire human race purified recreated anew SPIRITUALLY by Jesus’own blood; SATAN ERADICATED FROM THE HUMAN SOUL and THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE WORLD;
JESUS AS A SPIRIT EBIDES SOVEREIGN OVER BOTH GOOD AND EVIL ON EARTH TILL PENTECOST Luke 17:20-37)
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Did Jesus Fulfill Prophecy?
The belief that Jesus fulfilled prophecy has been a cornerstone of the notion that Christianity supersedes Judaism. From the first century until now, Christians have correlated statements about Jesus with carefully chosen Old Testament prophecies to document their belief that God’s plan for human salvation reached its fulfillment in Jesus. That interpretive practice is evident in most of the New Testament, but it is Matthew’s gospel that carries it out most thoroughly and most explicitly. The way Matthew matches prophecies to the story of Jesus creates the strong impression that anyone who believes in the scriptures of Israel must see that Jesus is the promised Messiah. Matthew thus uses prophecy as a proof that Israel’s history had been building up to Jesus.
Since Matthew’s proof-from-prophecy theme has been foundational to Christianity’s conviction that it is superior to Judaism, and since that conviction has had such pernicious consequences historically, Christian scholars, and all who are committed to the honest examination of Christian origins, have an ethical obligation to examine Matthew’s claims critically and to assess their value for Christian theology. This essay is offered as a step in that direction. First, we will examine how Matthew handled prophecy—or, more precisely, how he manipulated it—as he integrated the words of the prophets into his narrative. Second, we will investigate how the proof-from-prophecy theme works in Matthew’s gospel. Third, we will assess whether the belief that Jesus fulfilled prophecy is helpful or harmful to contemporary Christian faith.
How Matthew Uses Prophecy
Twelve times in his gospel, Matthew interrupts the story to tell us that the event he is narrating fulfilled a specific prophecy, which he then quotes. For our present purpose it will suffice to undertake a brief analysis of three such cases in which it is relatively simple to track the particular ways Matthew uses prophecy to help tell the story of Jesus.Matt 4:15–16
In recounting the start of Jesus’ public career, Matthew follows Mark’s outline: Matt 4:12 = Mark 1:14 and Matt 4:17 = Mark 1:15. But Matthew separates Mark’s grammatically connected verses and inserts an unnecessarily detailed account of Jesus’ change of residence (Matt 4:13), followed by Matthew’s fulfillment formula (Matt 4:14) and his quotation of Isa 9:1–2 (Matt 4:15–16). The prophet cited, Isaiah, mentions Galilee along with the old Israelite tribal names Zebulun and Naphtali and locates them on the way to the sea and across the Jordan River (Isa 9:1). Matthew 4:13 uses geographical markers from Isa 9:1 to amplify the description of Jesus’ movements found in Mark. Knowing from Mark 2:1 and 2:15 that Jesus had a house in Capernaum, on the Sea of Galilee, Matthew reports that Jesus moved from Nazareth to Capernaum, and is thus able to work the word “sea” from the Isaiah verse into 4:13. He also describes Capernaum (somewhat inexactly) as “in the territory of Zebulun and Naphtali,” whereas in fact Nazareth is in Zebulun and Capernaum is in Naphtali. He cannot include Isaiah’s “across the Jordan” because Jesus never crosses that river. All of Galilee is on the west side of the Jordan, and Capernaum on the lakeshore several miles southwest of the river’s entrance into the Sea of Galilee. Strictly speaking, then, Matthew describes Jesus leaving Zebulun to move to Naphtali. But this is to pick nits: Matthew is focused on the phrase “pagan Galilee.” For here we see the religious point of this prophecy: by portraying Jesus as fulfilling Isaiah’s vision, Matthew shows that he was sent for both Jews and Gentiles.
Matt 21:4–5
In this scene Jesus rides into Jerusalem to the cheers of a crowd. Matt 21:1–9 follows Mark 11:1–10 closely, except for two features.
1. Once again Matthew interrupts the narrative to announce the fulfillment of a prophecy (21:4), which he then quotes (21:5). Matt 21:5 begins with a phrase from Isa 62:11 and then selectively quotes Zech 9:9. Mark’s scenario, in which Jesus rides a donkey into Jerusalem while a crowd cheers for the “coming kingdom,” apparently reminded Matthew of Zechariah’s prophecy. Zech 9:9 seems to mention two animals, a “donkey” and a “colt, the foal of a donkey.” In the Hebrew text of Zech 9:9 it is clear that these are two descriptions of the same beast: parallel phrasing like this is quite common in Hebrew poetry. But in the Septuagint version of Zechariah, the Greek word for “and” appears: “a pack animal and a young colt.” Matthew’s “quotation” of Zech 9:9 blends elements from the original Hebrew with the Greek translation in such a way that the gentle king is “mounted on a donkey and on a colt, the foal of a pack animal” (Matt 21:5).
2. Matthew takes the Septuagint wording of this prophecy quite literally, as if it describes a king riding two animals. Accordingly, Matthew rewrites Mark’s story so that now the disciples bring a donkey and a colt to Jesus and, sure enough, he sits on both of them (21:7). For consistency, Matthew also goes back earlier in the scene and adds a second animal to the report of the finding the donkey by the disciples (Mark 11:2//Matt 21:2). He also changes the two pronouns in the next verse so that Mark’s “it” becomes “them” (Mark 11:3//Matt 21:3).
By way of comparison, note that the Gospel of John also quotes Zech 9:9 in connection with its much briefer version of this scene (John 12:12–15). John’s version of the prophecy sensibly mentions only one animal.
Matt 27:9
Mark 14:10–11 tells of Judas’ approach to the high priests and his offer to betray Jesus, for which treachery the priests promise to pay him. When Matthew rewrites this brief scene, he has Judas demand the money up front and specifies the amount of money agreed on by Judas and the priests: thirty silver pieces (Matt 26:14–15). Mark never mentioned the amount, nor do Luke or John. From what source has Matthew obtained this inside information? Answer: the prophets.
Later in the story Judas, overwhelmed by guilt, flings the money back at the priests and then commits suicide (Matt 27:3–5). When the priests use the money to buy some land, Matthew informs us that this fulfills a prophecy of Jeremiah about thirty pieces of silver (Matt 27:6–10). The prophecy in question is actually from Zechariah, not Jeremiah. Matthew’s mistake shows that here, at least, he is quoting from memory and not from a text.
A close comparison of Zech 11:12–13 and Matt 27:3–10 (a scene unique to Matthew’s gospel) also reveals where Matthew discovered that Judas had returned the money and had done so by throwing it into the temple.
What do these three examples show about Matthew’s use of prophecy?
Matt 4:14–16To position Jesus as fulfiller of prophecy, Matthew chooses descriptive details from Isaiah and crafts them into elaborations on the reports and clues that he found in Mark. The reason Jesus’ movements match the words of prophecy so closely—though not exactly—is that Matthew has derived Jesus’ itinerary from those very words.
Matt 21:4–5
Matthew creates a ludicrous scene: Jesus stunt-rides two animals into Jerusalem. The only possible purpose Matthew could have had in changing Mark’s straightforward narrative into such a spectacle is to demonstrate that Jesus fulfilled prophecy to the letter. Obviously, Matthew’s Jesus can fulfill this prophecy in this odd manner only because once again Matthew rigs the story with details cribbed from the “fulfilled” prophecy. This bizarre scene shows us to what extremes Matthew was prepared to go to portray Jesus as the fulfiller of prophecy. It should also raise a serious question about Matthew’s competence as an interpreter of Hebrew scripture.
Matt 26:15 and 27:9
With the thirty silver coins, Matthew yet again inserts details from a prophecy into a story that he borrowed from Mark. A chapter later, Matthew relies on the readers’ memory of that detail to confirm that that prophecy was fulfilled to the letter. Matthew’s specification of thirty silver pieces, and his report that Judas returned the money, are small but lucid examples of how Matthew uses the Old Testament as a source of information for the story of Jesus. It is not the case that Matthew knew a factually accurate account of the life of Jesus and then realized, from his knowledge of scripture, that the life of Jesus fulfilled prophecy. Rather, the process worked in the opposite direction. Matthew started with the conviction that Jesus’ life must have fulfilled scripture, and then went back to read (or remember) the Old Testament with the intention of finding out more about what had happened in Jesus’ life. That is how he, alone out of the four evangelists, “knows,” for example, that Jesus rode two animals into Jerusalem and that Judas was paid thirty silver pieces.
Did the prophets know what they were talking about?
From our perspective it is obvious that Matthew was reading Jesus into the prophecies he quoted. When we examine those prophecies in their own contexts, it is clear, for example, that Zechariah had no foreknowledge of Judas when he spoke about the thirty silver coins, and that Isaiah was not thinking about the birth of Jesus when he challenged King Ahaz with the news that “the young woman is pregnant and will have a son and will name him Immanuel” (Isa 7:14, quoted in Matt 1:23). The woman in question was someone Isaiah and Ahaz knew (note that she is “the young woman”), almost certainly one of Ahaz’s wives. Respect for the Bible requires us to understand the prophets as speaking to their own times, with messages that they and their audiences understood in relation to their situations centuries before the time of Jesus.Respect for the Bible also requires us to understand Matthew on his own terms. Matthew, like all Jews of his time, treated the words of the prophets as coded messages having significance beyond the prophets’ own understanding. This view of prophecy was absorbed into Judaism during the Hellenistic period, having originated among the ancient Greeks, who believed that their prophets spoke under the influence of a “spirit of prophecy” that overrode the speaker’s own rational capacities. As a result, sometimes neither the prophets nor their audiences could understand the true significance of their words, and thus the real meaning of some of those pagan prophecies could be discerned only after the predicted events had already occurred. First-century Jews applied these Greek beliefs about prophecy to the biblical prophets, and so came to believe that God had planted throughout their writings cryptic clues about his plans for the future.
Many Christians hold this same belief today. They think that prophets such as Isaiah and Ezekiel, as well as New Testament authors such as Paul, Peter, and John, unwittingly wrote about events happening in our own time or about to happen in the near future. Today you can find books in the “End Times Prophecy” sections of Christian bookstores that claim to understand the prophets better than the prophets understood themselves. Inevitably, these books explain that we are living in the last generation, a time of unparalleled evil from which only a few will be saved. Rather than pursue this issue further, I will ask only that you to pause for a moment to consider three interrelated premises of that view of prophecy:
the belief that all of history has been building up to our own lifetime
the assumption that the prophets did not fully understand their own messages, but we do
the outlook that we are among the “saved” and the rest of humanity is therefore “unsaved,” awaiting its eternal damnation
What human needs are answered by such self-centered beliefs? What kind of God is worshiped by a religion that caters to these needs?
The Function of Proof-from-Prophecy
It is a deeply rooted belief in Christianity that Jesus fulfilled prophecy. In its most common version, this belief entails that:
the Old Testament contains a number of prophetic predictions about the coming messiah
these prophecies were, in effect, waiting to be fulfilled
people would know the messiah when he finally “came” because he would fulfill these prophecies
That is how most Christians understand the term “Old Testament prophecy,” and Matthew’s gospel has been instrumental in fostering that notion. Matthew’s method of quoting specific prophecies and pointing out how they were fulfilled gives the impression that it should have been fairly clear to people who knew the scriptures that Jesus was the long-awaited messiah. So effective has Matthew’s gospel been in this regard, that Christianity has long puzzled over why the Jews of Jesus’ time “rejected” him. Matthew gives the impression that the Jewish leaders knew (or at least should have known) that Jesus was the messiah but opposed him because of their hypocrisy and hard-heartedness. At the very end of the gospel, Matthew makes his accusation explicit: these authorities knew that Jesus had risen from the dead but conspired to deceive their own people about the truth of his resurrection (28:11–15).First-century Jews applied … Greek beliefs about prophecy to the biblical prophets, and so came to believe that God had planted throughout their writings cryptic clues about his plans for the future.
We should take a moment to examine this brief story, because Matthew’s attitude toward the Jewish leaders bears directly on his proof-from-prophecy theme. The first thing to be said about Matt 28:11–15 is that there is not a shred of historical evidence for the conspiracy Matthew describes. Besides, if it had happened the way Matthew says it did, he could not have known about it: if the soldiers really “took the money and did as they had been instructed” (Matt 28:15), no one could have known about the alleged bribery and the lying. It isn’t difficult to conclude that Matthew made this story up. It is fiction. Now the gospels contain many fictions that express truth—stories that while not historically true communicate truths that are more important than historical facts. (Jesus’ parables and the stories that he multiplied bread and fish are good examples.) But the story about Jewish leaders who covered up Jesus’ resurrection is not like those benign fictions. It is a malicious lie. That Matthew told it to counteract the accusation that the disciples stole Jesus’ body helps us understand the motivation for the lie, but does not excuse it.
Matthew’s proof-from-prophecy argument is intertwined with his polemic against official Judaism. He asserts not only that his people are right to follow Jesus as the Jewish messiah, but also that Jews who do not follow Jesus are unfaithful to Judaism. In its simplest form, Matthew’s message to his people is:
1. “We” have a right to exist as a Jewish community, despite the fact that “they” say we don’t.
“We” are the only real Jews.
To judge from the bitterly polemical rhetoric in Matthew’s gospel, the debate between his people and the keepers of official Judaism at that time (i.e., the Pharisees) must have been fierce. See, for example, the way Matthew’s Jesus excoriates the Pharisees in chapter 23. We don’t expect cool logic in the sort of heated debates that all too often end up with each side even more convinced of its own rightness. And that is precisely the framework in which Matthew’s use of prophecy must be placed. Matthew’s rhetoric was not designed to win over the Jewish opponents of his community, nor was his manipulation of scripture meant to persuade the open-minded—-if his audience contained any such people. It was intended to reinforce the belief of Matthew’s own people that all of Jewish history had been building up to Jesus, and thus culminated in them.Matthew’s Context and Contemporary Faith
It seems most unlikely that Matthew’s presentation would change the mind of anyone who was not already inclined to believe that Jesus was the messiah. Perhaps some people neither knew what the prophets really said nor questioned whether Matthew’s stories were literally true; those people might be convinced that Jesus had fulfilled prophecies. And while this may well have been the effect of Matthew’s gospel on a few, we need not conclude that Matthew’s purpose was to trick the gullible. A more responsible line of inquiry into Matthew’s purpose in correlating prophecies with stories about Jesus is to imagine the circumstances that would allow Matthew and his audience to honestly believe in his presentation of Jesus as the fulfillment of prophecy.Scholars generally agree on what those circumstances were. We have to try to see things the way Matthew and his people did, regardless of whether we see things that way today. Matthew and his audience already believe that Jesus is the messiah. They also believe that God must have been dropping hints about the long-awaited messiah in the scriptures, especially in the books of the prophets. So Matthew goes back to the scriptures and studies them carefully, looking for clues about Jesus the messiah. For Matthew, the recognition of Jesus as the messiah is the newly revealed key that will unlock the hidden meaning of prophecy. When Matthew finds a prophetic statement that could be about Jesus, he tries to match it up with something he already knows—or believes—about Jesus’ life. Furthermore—and this is crucial—whatever a prophet says about the messiah, or the future Davidic king, or God’s son, Matthew can take to be information about Jesus not previously recognized as such.
The net result of all this is obvious: The early Christian belief that Jesus fulfilled prophecy arose after and because of the belief that he was the promised messiah. This very important finding needs to be emphasized. The belief that Jesus was the messiah was the basis for the belief that he was the fulfillment of prophecy. It was not that people noticed that Jesus had fulfilled a series of prophecies and so concluded that he must be the messiah. The process worked the other way around. It was because Christians were convinced that Jesus was the messiah that they went searching through the scriptures to discover which prophecies he had fulfilled. The proclamation that Jesus fulfilled prophecy is a testimony to Christian faith, not a description of its origin.
With this in mind, we can easily see why Matthew’s Jewish contemporaries were not persuaded by his “proof from prophecy.” It had nothing to do with having hard hearts or closed minds, or being deceived by their leaders. All of that is Matthean caricature. It had to do with the fact that Matthew’s presentation of prophecy makes sense only from the perspective of prior belief in Jesus. Outside of that perspective, Matthew’s use of prophecy has no persuasive power, and can even look like a deliberate distortion of the scriptures aimed at deceiving those who are uninformed and easily impressed.
Matthew must have known that he was not going to change minds with his fulfillment of prophecy theme. He designed it to support the faith of his own Christian-Jewish community, not to convert outsiders. Matthew’s message is that since the prophets confirm that Jesus is the messiah, his followers are the true heirs of Israel and children of Abraham, despite what the vast majority of other Jews may say. Surely this message would have offered encouragement to a tiny Jewish sect like Matthew’s community at a time when the belief that Jesus was the messiah could make you an outcast in Jewish society. Believing that Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy helped to reassure his Jewish followers of the rightness of their cause, at a time when the prestige of Jewish authority made this cause seem religiously illegitimate.
But that time no longer exists. It has not existed for nineteen centuries. The viability of Christian belief is not even remotely threatened by Judaism. Today there is not the slightest possibility that Christians will stop following Jesus because Jews do not regard him as the messiah. In the first century perhaps it was necessary for followers of Jesus to believe that the scriptures pointed to Christ, that Jews did not understand their true meaning, and that therefore the Hebrew Bible properly belonged only to Christians (who eventually made it into their own “Old Testament”). Christian history is marred with the ugly consequences of the anti-Judaism fostered by those beliefs. In view of the horrifying price that Christians have forced Jews to pay for keeping their covenant with God, isn’t it about time to stop insisting on Matthew’s mistaken premise? Do not Christians now have the moral obligation to let go of the notion that if Jews truly understood the scriptures they would become Christians?
The belief that the prophets were pointing to Jesus, though perhaps helpful at the time Matthew wrote his gospel, has long since outlived its usefulness. It is a belief that distorts the scriptures and has had ugly consequences in history. Out of respect for Judaism and for the Bible, therefore, I propose that Christians have an intellectual and moral duty to abandon this obsolete, self-serving, and dangerous belief. What do you think?……….Robert J. Miller
James Dunn’s conclusion in Christology in the Making that there is ‘little or no good evidence from the period prior to Christianity’s beginnings that the Ancient Near East seriously entertained the idea of a god or son of god descending from heaven to become a human being in order to bring man salvation, except perhaps at the level of popular pagan superstition’
This is the fate of the NT that they made mess of this Jesus supposed Messiah as God incarnate and preexisting prior to his birth which is foreign to Hebrew religion.
The biblical Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) never speaks of an eschatological messiah, and even the “messianic” passages that contain prophecies of a future golden age under an ideal king never use the term messiah. Nevertheless, many modern scholars believe that Israelite messianism grew out of beliefs that were connected with their nation’s kingship. When actual reality and the careers of particular historical Israelite kings proved more and more disappointing, the “messianic” kingship ideology was projected on the future.
After the Babylonian Exile, Jews’ prophetic vision of a future national restoration and the universal establishment of God’s kingdom became firmly associated with their return to Israel under a scion of David’s house who would be “the Lord’s anointed.” In the period of Roman rule and oppression, the Jews’ expectation of a personal messiah acquired increasing prominence and became the centre of other eschatological concepts held by various Jewish sects in different combinations and with varying emphases. In some sects, the “son of David” messianism, with its political implications, was overshadowed by apocalyptic notions of a more mystical character. Thus some believed that a heavenly being called the “Son of Man” (the term is derived from the Book of Daniel) would descend to save his people. The messianic ferment of this period, attested by contemporary Jewish-Hellenistic literature, is also vividly reflected in the New Testament. With the adoption of the Greek word Christ by the church of the Gentiles, the Jewish nationalist implications of the term messiah (implications that Jesus had explicitly rejected) vanished altogether, and the “Son of David” and “Son of Man” motifs could merge in a politically neutral and religiously highly original messianic conception that is central to Christianity.
Christianity had much deviated from its original source the Hebrew Bible and adapted much pagan elements into its religion by incorporating preexistence of Jesus and making him a divine who was some how involved in God’s creation in the beginning. He had become a Savior figure than a human Messiah.
Hi Gadam,
YOU: Later in the story Judas, overwhelmed by guilt, flings the money back at the priests and then commits suicide (Matt 27:3–5). When the priests use the money to buy some land, Matthew informs us that this fulfills a prophecy of Jeremiah about thirty pieces of silver (Matt 27:6–10). The prophecy in question is actually from Zechariah, not Jeremiah. Matthew’s mistake shows that here, at least, he is quoting from memory and not from a text.
ME, You are determined to discredit the authors of the Gospel in all manners possible even if such a mere detail as the one above which though it is as you said, most probably it is not according to your conclusions.
Read hereunder, please!
The most likely answer is found in the structure of the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible is divided into three sections called the Law, Writings, and Prophets. Jesus refers to these divisions in Luke 24:44. The collection of the Prophets began with the book of Jeremiah. The scrolls were sometimes referred to by the name of the first book, which in the case of the Prophets would be Jeremiah. So, when Matthew says that “Jeremiah says,” he means that the prophecy was found in the “Jeremiah Scroll.”
DO YOU AGREE WITH THE ABOVE?
PLEASE COMMENT!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
You wrote:
1 Cor 8:6 yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
Stop pretending you believe this LU. Your teaching is clearly contrary to what this is saying.
Oh I believe it, but I also believe that YHVH is two persons, a God and a Lord and they are ONE. You don’t believe that YHVH is two persons so you understand this verse differently. The Father is YHVH as the one true God and the Son is YHVH as the one true Lord.
You can’t see it, I realize that. Millions of Christians can.
Hi Adam,
Regarding 1 Peter, you said:
Again 1 Peter taken a portion of scripture from Isaiah 8;
8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
The above scripture was about the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts himself…
Yes it is about YHVH of hosts Himself, it is also about you because you are stumbling over the truth that Jesus is the Rock of Offense in Isaiah 8. I’m sorry to say that you, Adam, are among the many that shall stumble and fall and be broken and be snared, and be taken, v. 8:15. You are not alone here in that. Most of the members here are stumbling over Jesus being that Rock who is aka YHVH of Hosts.
Yes it is about YHVH of hosts Himself, it is also about you because you are stumbling over the truth that Jesus is the Rock of Offense in Isaiah 8. I’m sorry to say that you, Adam, are among the many that shall stumble and fall and be broken and be snared, and be taken, v. 8:15. You are not alone here in that. Most of the members here are stumbling over Jesus being that Rock who is aka YHVH of Hosts.
Thank you Sis Kathi for your reply to my post on Isaiah 8. So you think that I am offended by so called Rock of offense? In fact this is the tactic used by the NT writers against their Jewish counterparts for not accepting Jesus as Messiah. But sadly these writers misquoted Hebrew Bible to suit their ideas on Jesus. Your claim of two Yahwehs is some thing strange to Hebrew Bible. I want you to prove this to other Non-trinitarians in this group and then we can discuss this in reference to Hebrew Bible.
Thanks and peace to you…..Adam
Hi To all
YHVH IS THE DIVINE NAME OF THE FATHER AND SON.
IN PSALMS 24 WE SEE THIS FOR THE SON…..
Hebrew Transliterated
24:8 MY ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH ‘yZVZ VGBVUr YHVH GBVUr MLChMH.Latin Vulgate
24:8 quis est iste rex gloriae Dominus fortis et potens Dominus fortis in proelioKing James Version
24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.American Standard Version
24:8 Who is the King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.Bible in Basic English
24:8 Who is the King of glory? The Lord of strength and power, the Lord strong in war.Darby’s English Translation
24:8 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.Douay Rheims Bible
24:8 Who is this King of Glory? the Lord who is strong and mighty: the Lord mighty in battle.Noah Webster Bible
24:8 Who is this King of glory? the LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.World English Bible
24:8 Who is the King of glory? Yahweh strong and mighty, Yahweh mighty in battle.Young’s Literal Translation
24:8 Who is this —the king of glory?Jehovah — strong and mighty, Jehovah, the mighty in battle.Adam……The exact time of the coming of the Messiah written by Daniel, was given to the Jewish King Herod by the Jewish scribes themselves, that is why he went about killing the Male children under two years old in Jerusalem, sure seems they know when the Messiah would be born right? How do the Jews disclaim that fact in their denial of Jesus being the Messiah.?
And Adam I don’t “hate” the Jews, or anyone else for that matter, I have had many Jewish friends, and still do.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………..gene
Adam……The exact time of the coming of the Messiah written by Daniel, was given to the Jewish King Herod by the Jewish scribes themselves, that is why he went about killing the Male children under two years old in Jerusalem, sure seems they know when the Messiah would be born right? How do the Jews disclaim that fact in their denial of Jesus being the Messiah.?
And Adam I don’t “hate” the Jews, or anyone else for that matter, I have had many Jewish friends, and still do.
Hello brother Gene, book of Daniel is non-prophetic book in the Hebrew Bible and was written in Second Century BCE. If we read the commentary on the book of Daniel no such exact time of coming of Messiah was written by the writer of Daniel. In fact this was written about the Antiochene crisis during 171-164 BCE. I have written on this in my earlier posts on this thread. 70 Weeks of Daniel was not about Jesus.
Coming to Herod the Jewish King who allegedly killed babies claimed by Matthew’s writer was not found in the Secular history or in the writings of Josephus the Ist Century Jewish writer. This so called tragic incident was completely ignored by the writer of Luke Gospel. So there is no historical proof for these Nativity stories written by these Gospel writers.
Hi Adam,
You said:
So you think that I am offended by so called Rock of offense?
Yes, you reject the stone that has become the precious cornerstone, obviously. Jesus is not the Messiah according to you and the NT is not God’s Word, also according to you.
You also said:
Your claim of two Yahwehs is some thing strange to Hebrew Bible.
This is what I say, the one YHVH is two persons.
Deut 10:17 for YHVH your God — He is God of the gods, and Lord of the lords; God, the great, the mighty, and the fearful; who accepteth not persons, nor taketh a bribe;
Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.Deuteronomy is an OT passage, as you know.
Adam, do you know the saying “hindsight is 20/20”?
If not, it is explained here:
It is easier to clearly reevaluate past actions or decisions than when they are being made or done; things are clearer or more obvious when they are reflected upon. A reference to the visual acuity of normal eyesight (20/20 vision).
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/hindsight+is+20+20
If you limit God’s Words in the OT to how people understood them at the time they were said, you leave no room for the fullness of the meaning to unfold at the proper time. That is what is tripping you up, that is what is causing you to stumble, imo. I’m just saying that to try to help you stop stumbling and enjoy the precious, living stone who is the Messiah, precious in His Father’s sight.
Blessings, LU
Adam, do you know the saying “hindsight is 20/20”?
If not, it is explained here:
It is easier to clearly reevaluate past actions or decisions than when they are being made or done; things are clearer or more obvious when they are reflected upon. A reference to the visual acuity of normal eyesight (20/20 vision).
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/hindsight+is+20+20
If you limit God’s Words in the OT to how people understood them at the time they were said, you leave no room for the fullness of the meaning to unfold at the proper time. That is what is tripping you up, that is what is causing you to stumble, imo. I’m just saying that to try to help you stop stumbling and enjoy the precious, living stone who is the Messiah, precious in His Father’s sight.
Hi Sis Kathi, thanks for your lighter reply on my post and logics of Hindsight (20/20).
I am not limiting to Hebrew Bible alone in fact I am searching all religions. And I am comparing the NT with its original source Hebrew Bible. I find much deviation on concepts of God and Messiah.
Coming to Deut 10: 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe, 18 who executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and who loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. 19 You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. 20 You shall fear the Lord your God; him alone you shall worship; to him you shall hold fast, and by his name you shall swear. 21 He is your praise; he is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome things that your own eyes have seen.
As we read the above portion of scripture it is clear that the Lord(Yahweh) alone God and no one else is found in this text of Hebrew Bible. You want to see Jesus the supposed Messiah also as Yahweh in these words but that will be twisting the scriptures which was freely done by the NT writers.
I want you first win against the non-trinitarians because they also quote the same NT to negate your assumptions.
Good luck….
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
