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You: People who believe in a messiah and that Jesus is not that messiah usually have an expectation in their mind of a messiah. Of course, the messiah is not going to meet these kinds of expectations, so he will be rejected by carnal men.
Me: There is no question of belief in a Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible but only waiting for the true one as quoted in the scriptures.
The NT writers searched Hebrew Bible to prove that Jesus was the promised Messiah. They were not the super human beings who could only tell the truth but they are like our Christian Apologetics who can manipulate scriptures to prove their ideology. I don’t find any difference between these two groups.
As mentioned before. The messiah would suffer and bring salvation as well as reign as king. Men are impatient and look for the latter only. But God is not a man and God is patient. He is eternal. A thousand years is as a day to him. The reason men want Isaiah 53 to be about Israel and not the messiah is because they would then need to acknowledge that Jesus is the messiah. It is not called the forbidden chapter for nothing.
gadam, you are free to reject Jesus as the messiah. Your choice. Your will.
Hi Proclaimer,
You:
As mentioned before. The messiah would suffer and bring salvation as well as reign as king. Men are impatient and look for the latter only. But God is not a man and God is patient. He is eternal. A thousand years is as a day to him. The reason men want Isaiah 53 to be about Israel and not the messiah is because they would then need to acknowledge that Jesus is the messiah. It is not called the forbidden chapter for nothing.
Me: Suffering Messiah was not known to Jews of Jesus’ time the same is clearly evident even in the earliest strands of the NT writings. Here are few such verses;
1 Cor 1:
23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
Here Paul clearly know suffering Messiah was not accepted by the Jews of his time.
Matt 16:
21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.”
Here Peter clearly knows that no such beliefs on suffering Messiah exists in Judaism of his time.
Luke 24:
20 and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things took place.
The unknown disciples clearly know that no such hope of suffering and dying Messiah exists in their time.
So the NT writers and Christianity developed this concept of suffering and dying Messiah to prove their doctrine of original sin and Vicarious atonement which is foreign to Hebrew religion.
The video posted by you is from a Trinitarian Christian website whose aim is to convert the Jews to Jesus as their Messiah. Here is their statement of faith;
“Scripture – We believe that the Bible, composed of both the Old Testament (Tanakh) and the New Testament, is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. The Bible is the final authority for all we believe and how we are to live.
God – We believe in one God, eternally existent in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Jesus, Yeshua – We believe that Jesus (or as we say in Hebrew, Yeshua) is the promised Messiah and Savior. The Scriptures declare His virgin birth, His sinless life, His miracles, His substitutionary work on the cross, His bodily resurrection, and His exaltation to the right hand of God, where He is interceding on behalf of believers
Divinity of Jesus, Yeshua – We believe that Jesus is fully God and fully man. As the only begotten Son of the Father and the Divine Messiah, Jesus is the fullest revelation of God to man.
Man – We believe that God made man in His own image and endowed him with a longing for intimate fellowship with God.”
I don’t think you will go for such beliefs of these people.
Please think with broad mind. Thank you…..Adam
Gadam
You
Luke 24:
20 and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things took place.
The unknown disciples clearly know that no such hope of suffering and dying Messiah exists in their time.
Me
LIE GADAM
These disciples had a moment of discouragement, of depression so to speak, but Jesus comforted them, and they returned to Jerusalem full of joy.
THEREFORE READ FROM VERSE 13 TO 53 TO GET ACCOUNTABLE.
And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
[14] And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
[15] And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
[16] But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
[17] And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
[18] And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass therein these days?
[19] And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
[20] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
[21] But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
[22] Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
[23] And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
[24] And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
[25] Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
[26] Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
[27] And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
[28] And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
[29] But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
[30] And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
[31] And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
[32] And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
[33] And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
[34] Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
[35] And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
[37] But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
[38] And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[40] And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
[41] And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
[42] And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
[43] And he took it, and did eat before them.
[44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[48] And ye are witnesses of these things.
[49] And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
[50] And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
[51] And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
[52] And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
[53] And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.GADAM
YOU HAVE A VEIL OVER YOUR EYES THAT PREVENTS UNDERSTANDING BOTH THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW TESTAMENT.
THE LONGER YOU WAIT TO BELIEVE, THE HARDER IT WILL BE FOR YOU TO DIE TO YOURSELF TO FINALLY BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS. GO NO LONGER IT IS STILL TIME TO BELIEVE, TOMORROW DOES NOT BELONG TO US.
Hi Berean,
Luke 24:
20 and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things took place.
Please see the verse 21, it is clear that these unknown disciples were not aware of Isaiah 53 otherwise they could have not uttered these hopeless words on their Messiah and later the risen Jesus need not admonish them on their ignorance.
Gadam
When Christ died all the disciples were stunned regardless of what Old Testament knowledge they had …
And although Jesus had instructed them of his impending death on several occasions, they had a moment of discouragement.Hi Berean,
When Christ died all the disciples were stunned regardless of what Old Testament knowledge they had …
And although Jesus had instructed them of his impending death on several occasions, they had a moment of discouragement.That is the fate of our NT writings. They wanted us to imagine every thing and every type of strange ideas on Jesus.
Gadam
You wander completely
No interest in continuing to talk to you about these things, since you deny that Jesus is the messiahHi Berean,
I think this is useless.
Gadam just won’t accept that Jesus is the Messiah.
He twists every scripture given to him.
This is very sad and even annoying.
We can only pray for him.Good words, Berean and Danny and Proclaimer!
Thanks again for the uplifting music Berean, I got to see Don Moen in person years ago. It was a fantastic concert.
God bless you all! LU
Me: Suffering Messiah was not known to Jews of Jesus’ time the same is clearly evident even in the earliest strands of the NT writings. Here are few such verses;
The messiah is revealed to people including Jews. Nevertheless, even if Jesus is rejected as messiah, the idea of a suffering messiah is not foreign.
Part I: What Has the Jewish Community Said About Isaiah 53?
An Early Suffering Messiah
The targums are interpretive translations (sometimes referred to as paraphrases) of the Hebrew Bible into Aramaic. They date from around the time of Jesus on into the following centuries and have a variety of names. Targum Jonathan is a targum of the prophets, usually dated around the second century AD. This targum identifies the servant of Isaiah 53 as the Messiah; however, it also attributed the sufferings described in that chapter to the nation and the victory to the Messiah.In the synagogue, the Torah and its accompanying portion from the rest of the Tanakh are generally read in a one-year cycle. In the past, however, a three-year cycle was also used, and in the early cycle of synagogue readings, it seems that a messianic interpretation was given in which the Messiah suffers. Says Asher Soloff, “We know that messianic homilies based on Joseph’s career (his saving role preceded by suffering), and using Isaiah 53 as the prophetic portion, were preached in certain old synagogues which used the triennial cycle.”1
Scholar Jacob Mann similarly says, “The addition of 53.4-5 [to the cycle of synagogue readings] was evidently of a Messianic purport by reason of the theory of a suffering Messiah. The earlier part the Haftarah (52.7ff.) dealt with the redemption of Israel, and in this connection the tribulations of the Messiah were briefly alluded to by the recital of the above 2 verses.”2
But the sufferings of the Messiah in Jewish contexts have often – though not always – been different than the Christian idea of a vicarious atonement (meaning an atonement by a death made in substitution for one’s own death). For example, the “suffering Messiah” referred to in the Mann quote above may reflect the idea of a Messiah ben Joseph who suffers and dies in battle in preparation for the reign of Messiah ben David. In that conception, the sufferings of the Messiah are not atoning and certainly not vicarious (in our place).
In his Dialogue with Trypho (second century AD), Justin Martyr’s Jewish dialogue partner seems to admit the possibility of a suffering Messiah but cannot agree that it is Jesus.
A Variety of Opinions
By the third century AD, Origen in his work Contra Celsum (Against Celsus), portrays his Jewish opponent as interpreting Isaiah 53 refer to the people of Israel, whereby Israel’s suffering and worldwide dispersion are for the purpose of gaining proselytes.3 Thus speaking very broadly, it seems that two kinds of interpretations – national and individual-messianic – were found in the Jewish community of the first few centuries.Actually, if we go back to the first century, Acts 8 in the New Testament gives evidence for a third kind of interpretation that we can call biographical, in which Isaiah 53 is taken to refer to Isaiah himself or another contemporary figure:
And the eunuch said to Philip, ‘About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?’
– Acts 8:34
Back to an Individual Interpretation
An individual interpretation is found in the Babylonian Talmud (compiled in the sixth century AD) in Sanhedrin 98a. There, the Messiah is spoken of as a “leprous one,” and Isaiah 53:4 is cited. Similarly, Ruth Rabbah (mid-first millennium AD) cites Isaiah 53:5 and the Tanhuma (perhaps ninth century AD, though incorporating earlier material) quotes Isaiah 52:13. Both interpret the verses in regard to the “King Messiah.” These are not fully formed commentaries but Midrashic snippets, compiled before the medieval era of Jewish biblical commentary writing had begun.The Polemics of Medieval Times
Indeed, by medieval times and following, Isaiah 53 played a key role in both Jewish and Christian apologetics and polemics. Most of that discussion focused on whether the servant was Israel or the Messiah. We have already seen that the national interpretation can be found in earlier times alongside the individual interpretation. In medieval times, though, Rashi, Ibn Ezra, and David Kimhi (known by his acronym as the Radak), made the national interpretation “go viral” in the eleventh century and following. Today that is the usual interpretation within the religious Jewish community.Joel Rembaum notes this “shift in the emphasis of the Jewish interpretation.”4 According to him, the shift was catalyzed by (1) the Christian argument that the Jewish diaspora was “proof of God’s punishment”;5 (2) the then-standard Christian messianic interpretation of the chapter as portraying Jesus (thus the need for the Jewish community to offer a differing viewpoint); and (3) the “one-sided struggle” against Christians – for example, in the Crusades.6 This last factor led Jewish commentators to attempt to give meaning to the Jewish suffering that, which accompanied the Crusades in the form of pogroms and massacres. Rashi’s commentary was very possibly compiled following the First Crusade, responding to the events of his time. The national interpretation of Isaiah 53 offered a reason for the great suffering that the Jewish people were enduring. Thus, both the refutation of Christian views and comfort for the people of Israel enabled Rashi’s interpretation to become mainstream.
Interestingly, Rembaum tells us that in Rashi’s view, the Suffering Servant atones for humanity’s sins. This “universal vicarious expiation”7 is a new thought introduced by Rashi. In light of the Crusades, so explains Rashi, the Jews are innocent sufferers and the Gentiles are guilty, but Israel’s sufferings actually atone for the nations of the world. By this time in history, Judaism was teaching that martyrdom, such as what Jews underwent during the Crusades, had atoning value. But now this idea of atonement was applied not just to the sins of Israel but to those of the world – a thought “found nowhere in earlier Jewish sources.”8
Rembaum goes on to speak about three medieval Jewish ways of interpreting the nation’s suffering: the first he calls cathartic (the suffering expiates the sins of Israel); the second is missionary (the diaspora allows Israel to bring Torah to the nations – this was the view argued by Origen’s Jewish interlocutor in Contra Celsum); and the third is soteriological (that is, effecting salvation). In this last view, atonement is for the nations, the persecutors of Israel; this is influenced by a Christian “coloration.” Ibn Ezra adds a fourth interpretation, retaliatory: the nations’ persecution of Israel is a sin justifying God’s punishment, though this is not to do so much with the purpose of Israel’s suffering as with its eventual result.
Recent Developments
An interesting, if isolated, development occurred in the 1990s when some among the ultra-Orthodox Jewish group known as the Lubavitcher Hasidim quoted Isaiah 53 in support of the view that their leader Rebbe Menachem Schneerson was the Messiah. A stroke that left him speechless was interpreted according to Isaiah 53:7: “Like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.”9 The Messiahship of Schneerson has not been universally held by all Lubavitchers, and the entire notion caused an outcry among some other Orthodox Jews. Notably, David Berger took sharp issue with any idea that Schneerson could be the Messiah, even to the point of saying that the idea was outside the pale of Judaism.10Finally, because the Scripture continues to be read weekly in synagogues worldwide, it is worth noting that according to one Jewish author:
Because of the christological interpretation given to the chapter by Christians, [Isaiah 53] is omitted from the series of prophetical lessons (Haftarot) of the Deuteronomy Sabbaths. These seven lessons are called the “Seven (Chapters) of Comfort,” and are taken from the preceding and following parts of the book: the omission is deliberate and striking. (H. L.)11
In general, the polemic discussions between Jews and Christians have tended to center more on the particulars of interpreting individual verses and words than on the larger context in Isaiah. The national interpretation continues to dominate Jewish thinking on the subject, especially when expressed in response to missionary arguments. However, modern Jewish scholars continue to offer various other interpretations of the servant’s identity, including that the servant is Jeremiah, Hezekiah, and others. In many cases, these scholars echo the conclusions of some Christian scholars, though also reinvigorating some earlier Jewish interpretations as well. And some have still maintained a messianic interpretation, such as Herz Homberg (eighteenth to nineteenth century) and some early twentieth-century prayer books (called machzorim) for the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).12Hi Proclaimer,
The messiah is revealed to people including Jews. Nevertheless, even if Jesus is rejected as messiah, the idea of a suffering messiah is not foreign.
Again you have taken your supporting information from another Trinitarian website “Jews for Jesus”. You can check their statement of faith;
The Nature of God
We believe in one sovereign God, existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, perfect in holiness, infinite in wisdom, unbounded in power and measureless in love; that God is the source of all creation and that through the immediate exercise of His power all things came into being.The Father
We believe that God the Father is the author of eternal salvation, having loved the world and given His Son for its redemption.The Son
We believe that Jesus the Messiah was eternally pre-existent and is co-equal with God the Father; that He took on Himself the nature of man through the virgin birth so that He possesses both divine and human natures. We believe in His sinless life and perfect obedience to the Law; in His atoning death, burial, bodily resurrection, ascension into heaven, high-priestly intercession and His personal return in power and glory.The Holy Spirit
We believe that the Holy Spirit is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son; that He was active in the creation of all things and continues to be so in providence; that He convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and that He regenerates, sanctifies, baptizes, indwells, seals, illumines, guides and bestows His gifts upon all believers.I have quoted the traces of the information from the NT writings which are clearly showing that (Isaiah 53) suffering Messiah was not the belief of the Jews of Jesus’ time but it was developed by the NT writers and the Christianity to prove that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. Right from First century after Jesus crucifixion of Jesus, Christianity started searching the Hebrew Bible to interpret the sudden death of their Messiah as a Vicarious atonement for the redemption from so called Original sin. Paul is the first writer to frame this dogma which was followed by the other NT writers.
DEBUNKING “PROOF TEXTS” FROM THE PROVERBS
I. INTRODUCTION
The set of “messianic prophecies” identified by Christians in the Christian “Old Testament” is not congruent with the set of “messianic agenda items” developed by the Jewish prophets in the Hebrew Bible. Among the hundreds of alleged “messianic prophecy”-“fulfillment” pairs are three passages from the Book of Proverbs. In this essay, these three claimed “messianic prophecies” in the Book of Proverbs and their respective “fulfillments” in the New Testament are analyzed, and the claims of their validity tested.II. ANALYSIS OF CLAIMED “MESSIANIC PROPHECIES” AND THEIR “FULFILLMENTS”
To say that a prophecy has been fulfilled means that the foretold event, condition, or situation has happened, and that one no longer needs to await its completion or fulfillment. On the other hand, a prophecy that has not yet happened, or is yet to be completed, remains a prophecy not fulfilled.The items typically claimed by Christians to be “messianic prophecy” often consist of a short passage, a single verse, or even a portion of a verse, from the Christian “Old Testament”, and the same is true of the respective texts in the New Testament that are claimed to be accounts of “fulfillment” The “messianic prophecies” claimed to be present in a given proverb and the respective accounts of their “fulfillment” from the New Testament are addressed in the following subsections. The analysis helps determine whether these pairs of passages in the Christian “Old Testament” and New Testament qualify as “messianic prophecy” and its “fulfillment”, respectively.
A. Proverbs 8
The reference list indicates that Proverbs 8 contains one “messianic prophecy” that is “fulfilled” according to the New Testament,
The Messiah would be from everlasting Proverbs 8:22-23; John 17:51. Overview
Proverbs 8 and 9 are discourses on the nature of wisdom. The eighth chapter in the Book of Proverbs addresses the excellence of wisdom, a metaphoric reference to the Torah. Following summary of this chapter(Proverbs 8):
Verses 1-11 – Wisdom’s (Torah’s) call, in which she invites all to learn from her. She proclaims the delights of God’s teachings (Torah), which brings happiness and life, and declares that her moral value is higher than all earthly riches.
Verses 12-21 – Wisdom (Torah) speaks for herself about her attributes. She is the source of the truest success. This is the discipline that wisdom proclaims, and only the humble and truthful are allowed to discover her treasures and truth. By enduring themselves with the wisdom of Torah, kings become righteous sovereigns, leaders manifest leadership, princes gain authority, and judges remain dedicated to truth and justice. The Torah is generous to those who love her.Verses 22-31 – Wisdom (Torah) describes her role at Creation. She preceded everything, and is the “blueprint” of Creation. God created the Torah before He created the universe11; it is manifest in Creation, preserves the world, and is a guide to all mankind.
Verses 32-36 – Wisdom’s (Torah’s) closing appeal to follow the path she paves. She advises us to be wise, to follow Torah and its teachings. This path will lead the Jew to fulfillment, “Hearken unto discipline and grow wise.”
Only by unswerving obedience to Torah can we succeed.2. Investigating the claimed “Messianic Prophecy” [and “Fulfillment”]
a. The Messiah would be from everlasting
The relevant texts from the King James Version (KJV) “Old Testament” and New Testament, and the corresponding Jewish translation for reference purposes as given below.
(KJV) Proverbs 8: 22. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jewish Translation 22. The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
23. I was enthroned from everlasting, from the beginning, from before the earth [existed].
The two verses from the Hebrew Bible embody the concept that wisdom (i.e., the Torah) served as God’s “blueprint” for Creation, an idea that is also reflected elsewhere in the Book of Proverbs:Proverbs 3:19 – The Lord founded the earth with wisdom; [He] established the heavens with discernment.
The notion that wisdom preceded Creation must be understood in a logical sense rather than within the framework of time, which itself was part of Creation – a “plan” was necessary prior to the act of Creation, as indicated in the opening verse of a correct translation of the so-called “proof text”:Proverbs 8:22 – The Lord acquired me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
The “fulfillment” text appears to echo wisdom’s words, and ascribes them to Jesus, who is claimed to have existed prior to Creation.This assignment creates a serious logical problem for a foundational concept of Christian theology. Namely, that Jesus, as God, was “the alpha” [first] and “the omega” [last] (see Revelation 1:8,11, 21:6, 22:13), i.e., he was not created or formed, and that he is “eternal”. Whoever selected this passage as the “fulfillment” account apparently ignored the rest of this chapter since wisdom states in verses 24&25 that she was formed before the waters and mountains appeared.
However, this according to the Jewish Sages, seven things were created before the world was created, one of which is the Torah. (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate P e saCHIM, Folio 54a, and Tractate N e daRIM, Folio 39b) The Hebrew conjugated verb used in verses 24&25 is יִ תְּ לָלֹחו) hoLALti), I was formed, which derives from the root verb חיל) HET-YOD-LAmed), [to] give birth, [to] bring forth, [to] form (also [to] tremble [from pangs of birth, or from fear]):
Proverbs 8:24-25 – (24) I was created [יִ תְּ לָחוֹל [when there were yet no deeps, when there were no fountains replete with water. (25) I was created [יִ תְּ לָחוֹל [ before the mountains were sunk, before the hills;
Proverbs 8:24-25(KJV) – (24) When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. (25) Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:The identically conjugated verb, יִ תְּ לָלֹחו ,appears only one additional time in the Hebrew Bible, in the following passage:
Psalms 51:7 – Behold, with iniquity I was formed [יִ תְּ לָחוֹל ,[and with sin my mother conceived me.
Psalms 51:5(KJV) – Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.King David, the speaker here, makes a statement about his own birth. Therefore, the fact that wisdom was created and King David was formed eliminates the possibility that Jesus could be called “wisdom” and thereby become deified. In fact, by the accounts in the New Testament, Jesus cannot even be a personification of wisdom since he had to acquire it:
Luke 2:52(KJV) – And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
How could God, being all-wisdom, be described as increasing in wisdom?Conclusion: Proverbs 8:22-23 is not a valid “messianic prophecy”.
B. Proverbs 30
The reference list indicates that Proverbs 30 contains two “messianic prophecies” that are “fulfilled” according to the New Testament,
The Messiah would ascend and descend from heaven Proverbs 30:4a; John 3:13God would have a Son Proverbs 30:4b Matthew 3:16-17
1. Overview
The superscription attributes Proverb 30 to AGUR the son of YaQEH, yet the authorship of this chapter in the Book of Proverbs remains uncertain. Some say this is a reference to King Solomon, arguing that it was common in those days to use poetic metaphors instead of actual names to identify someone (this is similar to the later usage of pseudonyms). Others postulate that the author, AGUR the son of YaQEH, lived during a later era, and both Scriptural and Rabbinic evidence has been offered to support the notion that the Book of Proverbs, in its present form, is not the work of a single author. Rather, that it is a compilation of ethical works spanning a period of several hundred years, beginning at the time of King Solomon and ending during the era of the scribes who followed Ezra (see, e.g., Proverbs 25:1 and Babylonian Talmud,
Tractate BAva BATHra, Folio 15a, respectively).Regardless of who authored it, Proverbs 30 appears to be the product of an inquiring mind that was intrigued by the mysteries and problems of human existence.
2. Investigating claimed “Messianic Prophecies” [and “Fulfillments”] Having this verse divided into two segments, each of which representing a separate so-called “proof text” and “messianic prophecy”, makes the response somewhat clumsy. Nevertheless, the respective responses will follow this division as much as possible.
a. The Messiah would ascend and descend from heaven The relevant texts from the KJV “Old Testament” and New Testament, and the corresponding Jewish translation for reference purposes, are
shown below;(Translation from the Greek) Proverbs 30:4a John 3:13
Proverbs 30:4a Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who
hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? [what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?]
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the
Son of man which is in heaven.
(Jewish Translation from Hebrew) Proverbs 30:4a Who ascended to heaven and descended? Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Who established all the ends of the earth? [What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?]One way to understand this passage is as a series of rhetorical questions that describe the infinite nature of God. Their purpose is to point out that it is impossible for any mortal, such as AGUR who admits he cannot even understand the workings of the human mind, to understand the way that the “Infinite Mind” functions. To have this knowledge would mean that one also had to be able to accomplish the following:
– Ascend to heaven and descend, which only God had done (Genesis 11:7; Exodus 19:18)
– Gather the wind, an act of God (Amos 4:13; Psalms 135:7)
– Wrap the water in a garment, as God stores the water in the clouds for the rains, without which there is no existence (Job 26:8)
– Establish the boundaries of the earth as the place of human habitation, separated from the oceans, as God had done at Creation (Genesis 1:9-10)Could any mortal have done all this?
In quite a different approach to this passage, RaSHI considers these feats as metaphoric representations of accomplishments by Moses:
– Who ascended to heaven and descended? Moses ascended to heaven to receive the Torah and bring it down to earth for Israel (Exodus 19:3,20-25, 24:12- 18, 31:18, 32:15-16, 34:1-4)
– Who gathered wind in his fists? Moses controlled the winds14 (Exodus 10:13,18-19; 14:21)
– Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Moses restricted the waters of the sea (Exodus 14:15-22,26-29)– Who established all the ends of the earth? Moses erected the Tabernacle (Exodus 40:17-18)
Who else, other than Moses, accomplished all this?The “fulfillment” text ascribes the ascent and descent to and from heaven to Jesus and no one else, even though Proverbs 30:4a is neither directly referenced nor quoted in the New Testament. This presupposes the deity of Jesus and his incarnation in the flesh as a man, which has already been disproved elsewhere. Although Christianity considers the appearance of Jesus as a man, posed in the first question as having “L descended [from heaven] L”, to be part of the messianic advent, the actions covered by the remaining questions in the first segment of the verse were all completed at the time of Creation, thousands of years prior to start of the Christian era. [The impossibility of this passage speaking about Jesus becomes much
more obvious when the second segment of the verse is analyzed.]Conclusion: Proverbs 30:4a is not a valid “messianic prophecy”.
b. God would have a Son The relevant texts from the KJV “Old Testament” and New Testament, and the corresponding Jewish translation for reference purposes, are shown in Table II.B.2.b-1, with the respective relevant portions of the passages shown in highlighted form.
Proverbs 30:4b Matthew 3:16-17Proverbs 30:4b
[Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment?
who hath established all the ends of the earth?] what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst
tell?
Matthew 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17. And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.[Who ascended to heaven and descended? Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in
a garment? Who established all the ends of the earth?]
What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?According to the first view presented earlier, the last two in the series of rhetorical questions about the infinite nature of God are idioms that convey a tone of sarcasm:
The Sages point out, “If not for the service [of the Tabernacle and Torah] the foundations of heaven
and earth would not have been established.” (Babylonian Talmud, Tractate MegiLAH, Folio 31a)
– “What is his name?” This is a sarcastic question by which the one asking it really means: “If you assert that any man possessed these powers, then who is he?”
– “What is the name of his son?” This is more sarcasm, where the one asking the question really means: “should you claim that such a person has existed, let me test your knowledge of him; if you give me his name, what more do you know of him?
What was his son called?”
If the author of this proverb was referring to God in verse 4, then the question “what is His name?” would be rhetorical since, in general, most adults know the Creator’s name in their own language (and religion). So, the message conveyed by this sarcasm is that there is no mortal who accomplished all of this. Moreover, it does not say that “the son” did any of this; rather, it can be only the work of the Creator.According to RaSHI, the last two questions test the knowledge of anyone who may claim to know someone who accomplished these deeds:
– “What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?” This is the English translation of a common Hebrew idiom, ֹמוְ ה־שַּׁ מ) MAH-SHMO), what is his name, which may be paraphrased as follows: “If you say to us that there already was someone such as he [the one all these questions are about], then tell us what his son’s name is. Identify the family that has descended from him, and we will know who he is.”Therefore, the issue here is not who this someone’s son is, the question is about who this someone is, and about identifying that individual. There is only one other application of the idiom ֹמוְ ה־שַּׁ מ in the Hebrew Bible, and the context in which it is used in that particular passage helps clarify the point:
Exodus 3:13 – And Moses said to God, “Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name? [ ֹמוְ ה־שַּׁ מ ‘[what shall I say to them?”
In this verse, “What is his name?” – ֹמוְ ה־שַּׁ מ – is not an inquiry about God’s name. After all, Moses came to the Israelites saying, “L The God of your fathers has sent me to you L”. Surely, they knew who the God of their fathers was and what He was called. After all, the notion of an “Unknown God” is unbiblical. The noun “name” is used in the Hebrew Bible in more ways than just to identify someone or something. It can be an indication of fame (e.g., Genesis 11:4), and it can also be synonymous with might (e.g., Exodus 9:16).Thus, in Exodus 3:13, “What is his name?” means, “What mighty deeds can you recount for Him; what is his power, that we [the Israelites] should listen to the message you bring from Him?”
The use of the idiom ֹמוְ ה־שַּׁ מ at Proverbs 30:4b is similar in that the purpose of asking about the person’s name is to validate his credentials. Although there is no denying that all these feats credited here to Moses
were enabled by God, it was Moses who carried them out.Both Jewish interpretations of Proverbs 30:4, although quite different, are consistent with Scripture and, therefore, are acceptable. The “fulfillment” text, on the other hand, attempts to assign to Jesus a realization of the idioms used in Proverbs 30:4b immediately following his baptism. Yet, even if an actual “Father-son” relationship were implied in Proverbs 30:4, no evidentiary support is found in the Hebrew Bible for the Christian doctrine that Jesus was God’s “begotten” son, i.e., that he was fathered by God through an act of procreation, as claimed in the New Testament.
The Hebrew Bible actually contains several accounts of “son(s)” of God: Israel (Exodus 4:22; Deuteronomy 14:1; Hosea 2:1, 11:1), King David (Psalms 2:7), King Solomon (2Samuel 7:14; 1Chronicles
22:9-10), and Angels (Job 1:6; Daniel 3:25). However, none of these represents a physical (biological) “son of God” in the familial sense; they merely enjoyed a special relationship with God.Conclusion: Proverbs 30:4b is not a valid “messianic prophecy”.
III. SUMMARY
This study investigated three so-called “proof texts” in the Book of Proverbs, which are claimed to be Christian “messianic prophecies”, along with their respective claims of “fulfillment” in the New Testament. The analysis addressed the content, context, and correspondence between each pair of texts in order to assess the validity of the claims. The results of the investigation are summarized;Claimed “messianic prophecies” in Proverbs 8 and 30, and their “fulfillments” Statement Citations Valid?
Prophecy” “Fulfillment” The Messiah would be from everlasting Proverbs 8:22-23 John 17:5 NO
The Messiah would ascend and descend from heaven Proverbs 30:4a John 3:13 NO
God would have a Son Proverbs 30:4b Matthew 3:16-17 NO
It was demonstrated in all three cases that each alleged “messianic prophecy’ was the result of an attempt to retrofit New Testament accounts to appear as realizations of claimed prophetic accounts in the Christian “Old Testament”. It was also shown how these false interpretations resulted from the disregard of context and the lack of a correct understanding of the original Hebrew text.
As was noted in the analysis, none of these passages in the Christian “Old Testament” are directly referenced or quoted in the New Testament. This would indicate that they were not considered prophetic messianic texts by the authors of the New Testament. Rather, it is likely that they were fashioned into “messianic prophecies” at later times in the history of Christianity.
Finally, by focusing on Jesus, the central figure in the Christian messianic vision, not on the conditions that will prevail in the world due to his accomplishments, these three claimed Christian “messianic prophecy” and “fulfillment” pairs . This is, once again, inconsistent with the messianic vision of Judaism, which is based on the Hebrew Bible, and is, therefore, generally devoid of any prophetic content.
Adam, how do they Handel the scripture that says, God would not suffer his Holy ones “body” to see corruption in the Grave. Does that not show a resurrection of a non decomposed human body. And also prove the person (his holy one) was indeed, put to death, How is that explained away by the Jews.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene
Hi brother Gene, thanks for your post to me.
Adam, how do they Handel the scripture that says, God would not suffer his Holy ones “body” to see corruption in the Grave. Does that not show a resurrection of a non decomposed human body. And also prove the person (his holy one) was indeed, put to death, How is that explained away by the Jews.
In fact the verse quoted by Acts writer (Acts 2:25-28) is from Psalms 16 in the Hebrew Bible.
Acts 2:25-28
25 For David says concerning Him:
‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’Here is the Jewish interpretation of Psalms 16:8-10a; The relevant texts from the KJV “Old Testament” and New Testament, and the corresponding Jewish translation for reference purposes, are given below.
8. I have placed the Lord before me constantly; because [He is] at my right hand, I will not falter.
9. Therefore, my heart rejoiced, and my soul was glad; even my flesh shall dwell in safety.
10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; [You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.](Jewish Translation from the Hebrew)8. I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; [neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.].KJVThe Hebrew term לֹאוְ שׁ) sheOL), which means the grave, and is generally applied in this context throughout the Hebrew Bible, has been mistranslated as hell in the KJV rendition of verse 10a. It is worth noting that Biblical Hebrew contains no terminology for the common Christian idea of eternal damnation called “hell”. The concept of לֹאוְ שׁ(SheOL) was familiar to the ancient Israelites, and to the Jewish people throughout history. In general, this poetic term refers to the world of the dead – the place where the body goes after a person dies.
Some exceptions exist in the Hebrew Bible where לֹאוְ שׁ(SheOL) is applied metaphorically to describe a personal experience of great anxiety and despair. Examples include Isaiah 5:15[16], where it is depicted as a devouring monster, and at Jonah 2:3, where the prophet uses the term as a metaphor for his grave deep in the belly of the whale.
The term לֹאוְ שׁ appears in the Hebrew Bible 65 times. The KJV translators were inconsistent in their renditions of this term, which creates theological issues for Christians, as the following example demonstrates:
Psalms 139:8(KJV) – If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell [לֹאוְ שׁ ,[behold, thou art there.
According to the KJV rendition, the Christian god shares “hell” with its archenemy, “the Devil”, who has his own power and authority that he uses to oppose god and perpetrate evil. How, then, can the two occupy the same space?Verse 10a(Ps 16) does not speak of the resurrection of the dead. King David is confident that, when the time comes for him to die, his soul would ascend to be with God rather than descend to the grave along with his body. King Solomon spoke about this process as well:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 – And the dust returns to the earth as it was; and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Clearly, this is the same idea as is described by his father, King David. There is nothing in the context of this psalm that speaks of a resurrection, and certainly not about a Messiah who dies and is resurrected.
See the comparison of Ps 16:10
10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.(Jewish Translation from Hebrew text)
10. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.(KJV)
In this Psalm from the Hebrew Bible, King David describes the reasons for being happy throughout his life, and in verse 10 he points out that he will rejoice even in death because he knows that, although his body will go into the grave, his soul will go to God.
Two mistranslations appear in the KJV rendition of verse 10b. These same mistranslations also occur in the opening verse of the “fulfillment” account. Since the (Greek) New Testament was completed before the
KJV was published in 1611 C.E., and if the English translation from the Greek is correct, it is reasonable to assume that the mistranslations in the KJV followed from it. First is the rendition as thine Holy One of the
Hebrew inflected noun ְידִ סֲ ח) ,hasidCHA), which actually means your pious one. This term derives from the root noun ידִ סָ ח) haSID), a pious one, and is used in this context throughout the Hebrew Bible.Second is the rendition as corruption (meaning decay) of the Hebrew term תַ חָ שׁ\תַ חַ שׁ) SHAhat; this word appears in the Hebrew Bible in either form), which actually means a grave, or a pit, and is generally applied in שַׁ חַ ת\שָׁ חַ ת and שְׁ אוֹל Since. Bible Hebrew the throughout context this are used interchangeably in Biblical Hebrew, and since the former was used in verse 10a, it is rather natural that, for poetic and stylistic reasons, the author used the latter in verse10b, in the context of “a grave”, which is also the meaning of “the pit”.
The Modern Hebrew word תַ חַ שׁ has other meanings in addition to “a grave” and “a pit”, namely, fodder, destruction/ruin, and corruption, but these are never used in the Hebrew Bible. Therefore, as it pertains to the full verse 10, the use of the pair לֹאוְ שׁ and תַ חַ שׁ in the context of “a grave”, is much more meaningful than the two unrelated renderings as “hell” and “corruption” that appear in the KJV translation of the verse.
9. Therefore, my heart rejoiced, and my soul was glad; even my flesh shall dwell in safety.
10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.Even if the verse 9 is read together with verse 10, the ‘theme of death’ becomes the focal point of this expression: ‘to live secure’ thus implies to be freed from death and the fear of death threatening the life of the supplicant.
In fact the concept of resurrection of individuals is very rare in the Hebrew Bible only appeared first in Daniel 12 as we know that this book was written very late in the Hebrew Bible, in 2nd BCE (around 171-164) BCE as per the Biblical Scholars. Psalm 16 is not about any individual resurrection as misquoted by the Acts writer.
Hope this will answer your query.
Adam….Actually it doesn’t, brother, because the Hebrew bible does contain a large section on the resurrection of Flesh bodies from the grave. Please read Ezk 37: 1-14, that whole chapter shows clearly there is a physical resurrection from the gave that will take place for “the whole house of Israel”.
Adam also if you care to while you are there, read , Ezk 37: 15-22, which plainly shows that the Jews are not at this time, even by God, considered part of the Actual Nation of Israel . The actual Nation of ISRAEL is scattered all over this present world, and are under control of the Sons of Joseph, “Ephraim and Manasseh ” The United States and England. The Jews want to claim they are represent Israel, but at this time they are not even considered bu God as a part of the true Israelite nations, but will later be rejoined to the Actual Israelite nations, and become one nation in the hand of God.
Adam it’s all there and plain to see, be careful of the Jews, continual rejection of our lord Jesus, lest they change your thinking about him. God proved who he was by great signs and wonders and had hundreds of eye witness of what God the Father did trough him. All those Jews who reject him as the Messiah will have no part with him, lest they repent . IMO
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Hello brother Gene,
Adam….Actually it doesn’t, brother, because the Hebrew bible does contain a large section on the resurrection of Flesh bodies from the grave. Please read Ezk 37: 1-14, that whole chapter shows clearly there is a physical resurrection from the gave that will take place for “the whole house of Israel”.
I know you will certainly quote Ezek 37 on resurrection but this chapter is not talking about individual resurrection but the revival of Nation Israel whose hopes were lost and dead. God was promising the Ezekiel that his people will be gathered again to form as Nation in the later days. Here is the interpretation of Ezek 37;
The text of Ezekiel 37 was written by the prophet known as Ezekiel, who was the son of Buzi and served as a priest during the period of the Babylonian exile, 597-571 BC. The conclusions regarding the biographical information are made referring to the data provided in the first parts of the Book of Ezekiel. As a result, this information cannot be effectively proved. Furthermore, there are significant debates regarding the authorship because it is possible to assume that the large part of the book was written later, and Ezekiel can be regarded as an author of only a few verses (Ryken et al., 2010, p. 78). The purpose and mood of the book are correlated with the fact that Ezekiel prophesied to support the people of Israel during the Babylonian exile when the kings and leaders of Jerusalem and Judea were deported to Babylon (Unger, 2009, p. 112). During this period, the people of Israel suffered not only from the physical pain but also from the loss of hope and even faith. In this context, the text of Ezekiel 37 represents sufferings of the people with the help of the metaphorical image of the dried bones as well as with the focus on the words similar to the lament, “Our bones are dried up, and our hope has perished” (Ezek. 37:11). Prophesying the resurrection from death, Ezekiel provides the hope for the people of Israel for the following restoration of the nation. Therefore, Ezekiel 37 is often discussed as having the purpose to comfort the people, with references to those people who suffered from the Babylonian exile.
Israel only discovered in exile that apart from Yahweh, she had no essence, purpose, identity and existence. Her consistent obedience and religious fidelity to her deity were what ensured her survival. The reversal and revitalisation of the exilic condition of dissident captive Judeans were solely within divine sovereignty; any human effort was futile. The controlling purpose of the visionary experience of “Dry Bones” in Ezekiel 37:1-14 was not only crucial to Israel’s history, but also particularly critical to Ezekiel’s
eschatological theology. This vision forms the core of Ezekiel’s prophecy, serving as the ligament that sustains the parts of the book.Only Yahweh could save exiled Israel from her despondent state of existence; for she was incapable of self-deliverance. Clearly, then, it was Yahweh who directed both the events of the Assyrian and the Babylonian exiles as his punitive agents towards whoring Israel, to call her back to himself. By the same token, Yahweh himself alone could dig captives out of their grave and return them to their land of ancestry; a land hitherto dispossessed by their enemies. The basic purpose of recognition theology replete in the book of Ezekiel would be actualised when the vision came to fruition by the hand of Yahweh. God acting to reverse the hopeless condition of the Babylonian captives and restore them was in order to sustain the integrity and the honour due to his name. When he put his plan into effect, both the Assyrian and Babylonian captives and their captors would recognise that there is no deity more powerful than Israel’s Yahweh. True to Yahweh’s word, the Jews became free to return to Israel, firstly under the Persian king, Ahasuerus/Xerxes, then under Zerubbabel in 538 BC, under Ezra the scribe in 458 BC, and finally, under
Nehemiah in 444 BC.Ezekiel’s vision of the valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1–14) came to him after God had directed him to prophesy the rebirth of Israel in chapter 36. God announced, through the prophet, that Israel will be restored to her land in blessing under the leadership of “David, My servant [who] shall be king over them” (Ezekiel 37:24), clearly a reference to the future Messiah, descendant of David (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6–7; However, this promise seemed impossible in light of Israel’s present condition. She was “dead” as a nation, deprived of her land, her king, and her temple. She had been divided and dispersed for so long that unification and restoration seemed impossible. So God gave Ezekiel the vision of the dry bones as sign.
God transported Ezekiel—probably not literally, but in a vision—to a valley full of dry bones and directed him to speak to the bones. Ezekiel was to tell the bones that God would make breath enter the bones and they would come to life, just as in the creation of man when He breathed life into Adam (Genesis 2:7). Ezekiel obeyed, the bones came together, flesh developed, skin covered the flesh, breath entered the bodies, and they stood up in a vast army. This vision symbolized the whole house of Israel that was then in captivity. Like unburied skeletons, the people were in a state of living death, pining away with no end to their judgment in sight. They thought their hope was gone and they were cut off forever. The surviving Israelites felt their national hopes had been dashed and the nation had died in the flames of Babylon’s attack with no hope of resurrection.
The reviving of the dry bones signified God’s plan for Israel’s future national restoration. The vision also, and most importantly, showed that Israel’s new life depended on God’s power and not the circumstances of the people. Putting “breath” by God’s Spirit into the bones showed that God would not only restore them physically but also spiritually. The Israelites residing in the Holy Land today are not the fulfillment of this prophecy. It will be fulfilled when God re-gathers believing Israelites to the land (Jeremiah 31:33; 33:14–16).
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