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kerwin….JESUS SAID, “NO” man , “CAN COME”, unto me except the Father “draw” (from the Greek word drag) him”. That to me is saying it is not within a man , from his own so-called “freewill”, to chose CHRIST on his own.
FREEWILL IS AN OXYMORON, no such thing exist, or it could not be called a Will, because all will’s are a result of “cause” working within a person mind and body. Paul said that there was no good in his body because “TO WILL” was present in his body, causing him to do the evil he would not do, he also said he found that sin was in his body waring with his mind, bringing him into captivity, to do evil. “for the evil i would not do,i do, “O” wretched man that i am, he says. “WHO CANDELIEVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH”, he thanked GOD, that theough JESUS CHRIST he would be delievered from his body of sin and death.
The apostle Paul perfectly described what is working in us all, if we can all come to understand what he was saying it would help us allnot to get discouraged when we fail, and fail we will at times, but as scripture says “where sin abounds, GRACE does much more abound”.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Gene,
kerwin….JESUS SAID, “NO” man , “CAN COME”, unto me except the Father “draw” (from the Greek word drag) him”. That to me is saying it is not within a man , from his own so-called “freewill”, to chose CHRIST on his own.
You are missing information. First Jesus promised each human being that hungered and thirsted for righteousness that they would be filled. Hungering and thirsting for righteousness is in a human being. Just as a thirsty male is drawn to drink and a hungry woman to eat so to is one that hungers and thirsts for righteousness drawn to the light of the gospel of Christ. On the other hand those love darkness are pushed away from Jesus Christ because there deeds are evil. I call those free will but you would say they are influenced by their deep desire for righteousness or their love of sin.
Here is a paraphrase of Jesus’ words:
Psalm 42:1Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks,
so panteth my soul after thee, O God.Here is a second witness:
Psalm 119:131Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
131 I opened my mouth, and panted:
for I longed for thy commandments.Gene,
I serves no purpose to argue over words.
You keep defining free will as random will. Random will is not free will because free will requires an individual to be subject to their own will and not to random chance.
Going by what Jesus stated we can make a choice that originates at a superior part of us than our wills for he submitted his will to God. I fairly confident it is just a figure of speech to reveal he chose the Spirit instead of the flesh.
Hi KW,
For those in Christ Paul said in Philipians
“God is at work in you to will and to do”
That does not apply to all men but only those who are God’s workmanship.
‘He who has died has been freed from sin’
Does this mean that all are forgiven ar death?
No. It means that ‘sin in the flesh’ that Paul spoke of in Rom 7 departs when a man dies.
But as GB said those in Christ who struggle with sin are given more grace.
Nick,
‘He who has died has been freed from sin’
This is true of all human beings as the dead do not sin.
For one to be freed from sin they must be freed before they die.
Paul is encouraging believers to have complete faith that they were freed from sin when they were immersed in Jesus Christ.
It is about believing God can and does do the impossible and he chose to do it through Jesus Christ; whom he made Lord and Christ.
kerwin….Nick is right we all struggle because as Paul said these are bodies with sin in them, which we all have, they must be destoryed, and we will be given new bidies where sin does not dwell. We as Paul desire to be clothed with a new body not made by human hands, but made by God. But as long as we are in these bodies sin is present. Now if i am saved by grace through faith; and that not of or from myself it is indeed a gift from God Eph 2:8. We only decieve ourselves if we believe we have no sin in these bodies, 1 John 1:8. GOD HAS concluded ‘all” under sin , that he may have mercy on “all”. We are not delievered by our so-called freewill choice’s, but by the sacrifice of JESUS the Christ.
It might help here if we made a complete study of what Paul said here reguarding our present state OF EXISTENCE . WE as Paul was, are wating for that rightiousness to come, We haven’t yet attained it.
ALSO YOU QUOTED king David a “converted” man of GOD, HE HAD The “anointing spirit”, of GOD on him, but he also had sins present in his body, case in point, Bethsheba and the murder of Uriah the her husband. It was him that said,”blessed is the man in whom the LORD will not impute sin , whose iniquites he has covered. He understood the GRACE AND MERCY OF GOD in his life, We should also.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
tGene,
Nick is right we all struggle because as Paul said these are bodies with sin in them, which we all have, they must be destoryed,
Your misunderstand Paul because he is not a Gnostic and that is a Gnostic statement since they believe the physical world is a flawed creation and God said human beings, including their physical bodies were a very good creation. In addition Paul also teaches the creature is freed from corruption so that it becomes a new creation and the old is destroyed.
Now if i am saved by grace through faith; and that not of or from myself it is indeed a gift from God Eph 2:8
We have already over and you had no answer to my points so why bring it up again?
You might want to consider reading Acts 18:27.
It might help here if we made a complete study of what Paul said here reguarding our present state OF EXISTENCE . WE as Paul was, are wating for that rightiousness to come, We haven’t yet attained it.
Why do you believe Paul taught Jesus lied for Jesus promised that those that believe in him would be freed from slavery to sin. Jesus also stated that anyone who sins is a slave to sin. Either one can stop sinning is this life and Jesus tells the truth or one cannot and Jesus is a liar and therefore neither the Son of God nor the Christ.
The angel also stated that Jesus would “save his people from their sins”, Matthew 1:21. If he does not do that then the NT is untrue.
kerwin….JESUS SAID, “NO” man , “CAN COME”, unto me except the Father “draw” (from the Greek word drag) him”. That to me is saying it is not within a man , from his own so-called “freewill”, to chose CHRIST on his
Gene, God desires all to be saved and he makes a way for this to happen. Thus God will draw all of us in his time. But sometimes we are not ready, so perhaps he waits. But everyone is given the opportunity as we are all convicted of sin, righteousness, and judgement. And this is why the end will come when the gospel is preached to the whole world. If God only drew some, then he wouldn’t say that he desires all to be saved and he wouldn’t have set the great commission.
1 Timothy 2:4
This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.John 16:8-12
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak;
Hi t8,
If belief in universal salvation does not belong here perhaps you could expand your ideas in an appropriate thread.
T8….Rom 11:5-8….What then? EVEN so then at this presenttimealso there is a remnant according to the “election” of “grace”. (6) And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works it is no more grace,but it be of work, otherwise work is no more work. (7) What then? ISREAL has not obtaind that which he “seeks” for; but the “election” has obtained it, and the rest were blinded. ACCORDING as it is written, God has given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that should not see, and ears that should not hear; unto this day.
JOHN 12:40….HE (GOD) has blinded their eyes, and hardened their hearts; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, and be converted, and i should heal them.
T8.. Tell me how those words fit in your “all” called and “self” conversion thelogy. THE word elect means, God is the one choosing right? So it is clear by the above scriptures God has not choosen all at this time, but has “elected” and “chosen” some, both at the time of Paul and John and even now.
We are not self “elected” T8, IT is God himself who both chosses and elects, it starts by him opening the eye of our understanding which “draws” us to JESUS to obtain salvation, our SALVATION is a work of God and has nothing to do with the works of mam. Therefore it is by “FAITH” and that faith is given to us from GOD . ALL OF THIS WORKS BY THE “GRACE” OF GOD THE FATHER. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Hi T8,
Please clarify.
Are you now teaching that all will be saved?I have never said such a thing. Can you not understand that God wants all, but that it is still up to each person as to whether they choose God or not. Many will not and have not in the past. The wicked will be destroyed because God is life and that life is in his son which is available to us. If we reject God, we reject his son and if we reject the son, then we reject God. Consequently that is tantamount to a rejection of eternal life. Not all will inherit eternal life as it is written.
If belief in universal salvation does not belong here perhaps you could expand your ideas in an appropriate thread.
Again you cannot understand. And yes, this does not belong here. I replied to Gene who was the one steering off topic. Often I reply and then later notice that the topic does not match the question or post I am replying to. Rather than delete my carefully crafted post, I explain in my next post to keep the topic on track. You could have seen this yourself by reading this page. But your response was initiated by you thinking once again incorrect thoughts about someone else’s words. Jesus said it best once. “How long shall I put up with you?”
2 Timothy 3:3-9
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.
So looking at it spiritually our foreordination in heaven parallels to Bethlehem while our choice to be born again or baptism parallels to Jordan.
Could be. However in the case of Jesus, he was born the savior and Christ. While I do not think it could be said that we are born saved or born as a son of God. We are born of Adam and have to choose to be born-again.
While we may be foreordained, I am not so sure that we are preordained as I think Gene believes.
Hi t8,
Your one verse based dogma.
Move along.
Perhaps you could come to understand what the Angel meant?
By foreordained I mean the same as preordained in which case we are chosen before the foundation of the world.So in some sense we are born sons of God and predestined to be saved.Of course this doesn’t make us Christ but that body or even bride of Christ.
AndrewAD. ….THE word CHRISTO’S, is not referring to THE MAN JESUS but the Spirit of God that was in him. Another words God himself. GOD’S SPIRIT IS THE The BRIDEGROOM, WE and JESUS ARE THE BRIDES it joins us to the GOD THE FATHER, as it did Jesus, and we become one with GOD THE FATHER AS JESUS by that same spirit. REMEMBER where it says, “that God may be “IÑ” ALL and “THROUGH” ALL”. That happens when a spritual union takes place, GOD, WHO IS SPIRIT, AND OUR SPIRIT. Just as a man and women combine as one in merriage, so it is with the SPIRIT OF GOD AND OUR SPIRIT, And becaue we are son of GOD, the Father sends forth his SPIRIT into our hearts crying abba father, even the spirit of “TRUTH”, the “COMFORTER”, who JESUS SAID “WOULD ABIDE WITH US FOREVER”.
It is crucial for all come to see Jesus, just as they see their self, in their relationship with God the father, JESUS’ is the same as ours can be, without any difference. Even if he is the head, the first born in the family of GOD he must still be seen as a brother and the one who hold the “firstborn” position.. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
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