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Nick,
So your doctrine expects that those reborn of the Spirit can walk in that Spirit immediately.
One does not have a prize at the beginning of the race but some are faster than other but this is a race when each racer whom persist in running as if to gain first prize will win the race.
Paul stated he had run the race. (2 Timothy 4:7)
Could you give me the passage where ‘he was denied complete victory’ since it sounds like it disagrees with what he later told Timothy?
Nick,
Not every sin is unto death but all stumble.
The message of the gospel does not say all stumble but rather if one stumble they are to confess their sin that God will cleanse them from all unrighteousness.
Nick,
Philippians 3:8-14New English Translation (NET Bible)
8 More than that, I now regard all things as liabilities compared to the far greater value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things—indeed, I regard them as dung!—that I may gain Christ, 9 and be found in him, not because I have my own righteousness derived from the law, but because I have the righteousness that comes by way of Christ’s faithfulness—a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ’s faithfulness. 10 My aim is to know him, to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings, and to be like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.12 Not that I have already attained this—that is, I have not already been perfected—but I strive to lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus also laid hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself to have attained this. Instead I am single-minded: Forgetting the things that are behind and reaching out for the things that are ahead, 14 with this goal in mind, I strive toward the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
I am not focusing too well but I think I see where you are coming from. His similar words to Timothy were written at a later date according to what I have heard.
I will try to look at this later.
Nick,
It sounds like he is claiming that he is not yet fully mature not like he is stating “all stumble”. He then later tells Timothy he has run the race.
The question then becomes is he teaching a lie because he has not yet obtain the prize or he teaching what he hopes for?
His claim does not disagree with John’s words “If you sin…”
Hi KW,
Do you find inconsistency in scripture or is it in you?
Paul was closer to his death perhaps in the second letter to Timothy?
Nick,
Please read the question again. I provided one of two options for you to answer as I see no contradiction between what Paul says and what John says. It whether you do that I doubt so I gave an easy question.
Hi KW,
Be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.
The work of sanctification can begin when one in born of the Spirit.
Bot it cannot happen without our submission ond cooperation.
We must be transformed by renewal of our minds.
That is the citadel that Satan has ruled from and he does not give up easily.
Death of the soul is his mission. Salvation of the Soul is the plan of God according to Peter.
Biut every sin does not lead to death as John told us.
Only when the light occupies our whole being will we shine like stars.
It is a slow pailful process as Paul observed
Nick,
“[But] every sin does not lead to death as John told us.”
Jesus told us of one sin that leads to death the confessed and God will the one that confesses of all unrighteousness.
I think the speed of the process varies from individual to individual.
kerwin and Nick……We are to grow in grace “and” knowledge unto a perfect man. kerwin it is all a process and takes place over time, and many time we do stumble as Nick said, I think you know that already. We will most likely not become perfect until the resurection, but we should still press for the mark of the high calling of the anointing or christo’s, given us by our heavenly father.
peace and love to you both and yours. ………gene
Gene,
The statement “many time we do stumble” reveals a lack of faith and the way of Jesus is one of faith. I have stumbled many times in the past but that does not mean I will in the future not does it mean another will.
kerwin…..Having faith in God does not prevent stumbling at times. We all still have our human nature to deal with, as Paul clearly ststed he had,even call himself wretched , another Case and point King David, a man of great faith. If perfection were possible then why are we under grace. “for you are saved by grace and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God” and again , “blessed is the man who God will not imput sin, whose iniquites he has covered.
IF we are running the race we obviously haven’t reached the finish line yet, right? we are in a growing process and as more and more light is showing our faults we need to repent, a continuous process. Remember the words of Paul, Rom 7:16-25 , (20) “that good i would do i do not ,but the evil which i would not do, that i do, (24) O wretched man that i am, who shall deliever me from this body of death. (25) I THANK GOD, through Jesus the christo’s, our lord. So then with the mind i myself, serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”
As long as we are in these bodies sin exists in it, if we deny this then we simply are not abiding in the truth, remember what JOHN said to us in 1 Jn 1:8 , “if we say we have not sin we aredecieving ouselves, andthe truth is not in us.”
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Gene,
Having faith in God does not prevent stumbling at times.
I have to disagree for it is written.
Romans 1:17New English Translation (NET Bible)
17 For the righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel from faith to faith, just as it is written, “The righteous by faith will live.”
A stumble is a sign of faith that is not complete. To be fully mature in Christ is to have one’s faith made perfect.
After all God does not break his promise and he is the one that put fruit to faith not us.
If one has complete faith and still stumbles then that one is like a Prince that falls. I am not sure that such a one can be forgiven.
Gene,
All things occur by God’s grace so Paul was uttering a clearly evident truth for a specific purpose. It was probably aimed at those that boasted in themselves or whose teachings relied on human effort but otherwise I do not see where it relevant due to it being an all present factor.
For example one walks both according to the flesh and according to the Spirit. That is because God allows us free choice also known as what you call influenced choice.
It is the works of the works of the Spirit that saves us but so does faith, which also comes by the grace of God.
So yes grace but then its fruits of faith and works empowered by God.
Gene,
Scripture declare perfection is a goal that is possible.
1 John 4:12New English Translation (NET Bible)
12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God resides in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1 John 2:5New English Translation (NET Bible)
5 But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him.
James 1:2-4New English Translation (NET Bible)
2 My brothers and sisters, consider it nothing but joy when you fall into all sorts of trials, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything.
Hebrews 7:19New English Translation (NET Bible)
19 for the law made nothing perfect. On the other hand a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 11:40New English Translation (NET Bible)
40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.
If we cannot be made perfect then we are no better off than those under the Law of Mosses for no one could be made perfect under it as well. (Hebrews 11:40)
Gene and Nick,
James did say these words but even it is present tense and speaks of at vague number of exceptions.
James 3:2New English Translation (NET Bible)
2 For we all stumble in many ways. If someone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect individual, able to control the entire body as well.
kerwin….JAMES was admitting he did stumble in “many” ways, that is clear by what he meant by sayin , “we”, that is an enclusive term, and the scriptures i posted do say Paul was speaking about himself clearly, also John did mean what he said to. Look we all fall short in many ways Kerwin, even you do, surely life has taught you that by now?
I also believe you are mixing up Faith with Works, Faith as with Abraham is “reconed” to us as rightiousness, that is not the same thing as saying we ourselves “are” rightious, now is it? FAITH IS CRUCIAL, because it is a mindset and if we have faith in something we also trust in it, so it is crucial in the growth process, “for we are GOD’S WORKMEN SHIP, “being created” unto good works”, it is a process of creation being performed by GOD THE FATHER in us and through us. ONLY “ONE’ gets the credit , and it is not our so-called “free” will’s, just as Paul said , He found nothing good in him because to “WILL” was present, and again it is not of him that “will’s, but of GOD THAT CALLS. GOD said planily it is not within a man to direct his path, so then it must be installed in him by GOD alone.
NOW if i have FAITH AND OBEY GOD, am i obeying “myself”, as if i were MY rightiouss, or GOD who is truly rightious. if it is by my own “so-called freewill choices that enable me to do it, then who needs GOD because i could of my own self perform rightiousness by my own “will” free from GOD. So with that view then salvation is achieved by way of debit, because it would be owed to me by my performance of rightiousness, not by FATH in GOD. A Will that is “free” does not exist, if it did it would be a lose cannon at best. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Gene,
I brought it up so I understood the present tense that James used. Paul also seems to admit the same thing in a passage Nick brought up and I quoted on the previous page. That does not mean that they were not looking forward made perfect before they died. In fact the other passages that is what they looked forward to.
James made an exception with the word “If someone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect individual, able to control the entire body as well.” He also stated “And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything.”
Gene,
There is two kind of works. The first is the works of the flesh and the second is the works of the Spirit. No one can please God by the works of the flesh but God is pleased by the works of the Spirit. Abraham has faith but he did not bear its works. God was satisfied with his faith knowing that Abraham would be made perfect by the works of the Spirit performed by those that have the Spirit.
Jesus was the first to receive the Spirit in its mission of being an Advocate. Later, when he had the authority to do so, others would receive the Spirit through him. It is receiving the Spirit that makes the new covenant superior to the old covenant. Abraham lived his mortal life before the old covenant.
Your stance is that there is no difference between the new covenant and either the old covenant or the time before the old covenant and after the fall.
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