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Ed,
”the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8)
God planned for Jesus to be slain from the foundation of the world.
God’s plan cannot be thwarted so Scripture refers to it as done even though it is not. Romans 4:17 speaks of this idea.Hi Kerwin,
Here is evidence that this plan, you speak of, was unknown:
“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom,
which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (1 Cor 2:7-8)____________
God bless
Ed JIn defence of your dogma you ignore angelic prophecy and read everything as now.
You should study the prophetic word till the morning star rises in your heart.
This is my dogma lol. You lose Nick, unless the angel was wrong.
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.
The day he was born, he was the messiah, savior, and Lord.
I have a good witness to this. Detractors must use their own understanding.
T8…..Tell us when did JESUS BECOME OUR SAVIOR, at berth or when he died on the cross? Were we saved before he was even born, while he was still in heaven according to your prexistence view, and scripture does say he was sacrificed from the foundations of the earth, so are we to think he did not have to come and do anything because he already was our saviour even before his berth on this earth?
Can’t you see that salvation did not happen till it happened, as we have said, it didn’ happen till it happened, no matter what the predicted outcome is. YES the man Jesus Was prophesied to come into existence way before he actually did, but none of that happened till it happened, what is so hard to understand about that. A PROPHESY is a event to “come” Jesus was destined to be crusified for the forgiveness of our sins, but it had to happen, even though that was his prophesied destny from the foundations of the world.
peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
Ed,
The angels of God did not crucify Jesus but there is evidence that even they were not told everything.
Like the Jews, they did know that God promised that the Christ would be an offspring of King David.
I am not debating the Christ title because I don’t know when Jesus was literally anointed or if he was on credited with being so.
I do debate the Lord title but there is some ambiguity with whether it is referring to Jesus the Prince or Jesus the King though I am convinced the context reveals it to be the later.
The title Savior (Saviour), used in Luke 2:11, is not one Jesus literally obtained until he sacrificed himself for his brethren, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven.
t8,
You have already been informed your teaching breaks from Scripture and yet you continually fail to address that point. That reveals that you are so glued to your own doctrine that you will not test it against Scripture. I have no power over you even though I realize you have taken a wrong turn. I can only point out where you err.
Scripture speaks of those things that are not as if they were because as soon as Gods says he will do them they are as good as done. The angel and those Jews that believed him believed God and their words echoed that belief but Jesus did not literally become Savior until he sacrificed himself, was resurrected from the dead, and ascended to heaven to mediate the new covenant.
I hypothesize that your belief in random will, that you call free will, is an obstacle to correctly understand the words of the angel and related passages.
If a man comes to a branch and the road and he has exactly the same knowledge he will always choose the same path because he is choosing from his own will.
If a man comes to a branch in the word and he has exactly the same knowledge and yet he could choose either path then he is choosing because his will is random.
Some would falsely call the later free will but random will is not free will. Instead freewill is choosing from a being’s own will.
God knows what each of us will choose before we chose and simply fits our choices into his plans. He knew each and every choice Jesus would make all though his mortal life and beyond. He knew Jesus would make choices to become the Savior and planned for it. He made his promises according to his knowledge and plan. You just have to believe.
lol. Kerwin, do you see what you and others are actually doing.
I quote scripture in my own words and get shot down.
Now if I quote the scripture verbatim, I continue to be shot down.
Do I need to point out that I am the one defending that angel’s testimony?
This is why I am confident in this discussion and why I do not take you guys seriously. Your minds seem closed on the issue to the point that even scripture itself is denied. You have lost credibility as a result.
If one of you even decided to actually address the scripture itself and explain that it was translated incorrectly or whatever, then I am all ears. But you haven’t even attempted to do so. Thus, as far as I am concerned that angel was correct and by extension of that, you guys have to be wrong. Simple as that. Scripture is scripture. We can’t cherry-pick scripture and teachings for our itching ears. We need to deal with the full testimony of scripture.
t8,
You are not listening or you would know you are getting shot down because your interpretation of one passage of the bible disagrees with other passages of the bible.
Despite you implications Scripture is not broken.
It also irritates me that you choose to avoid resolving the issues.
I believe it was most likely translated correctly but that it speaks of what is not as if it were. I have actually written that more than once. Mind you I have not checked if it was correctly translated nor to I have the skills or tools available to due so since any error would be in the word endings.
The scripture is sound. I am the only one believing it word for word.
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.
Of course anyone reading that would see that it is saying that he was born the savior, messiah, and Lord. Simple.
Only a person with a predefined doctrine that contradicted it would bother to change it or oppose it.
I am arguing for the scripture as it is written. I feel secure in believing the scripture. Your security appears to be your doctrine that disposes of the angel’s declaration.
My advice is that you guys let the scripture speak and it will renew your mind. If you do not, you will cherry-pick that which itches your ears and ignore the ones that are difficult.
Kerwin, Gene, and Nick, be honest.
Do you believe this scripture as it is written?
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.
If you say yes, then move on please. If you say no, then you are wrong.
Hi t8,
Just as soon as you explain to us why you do not think the Saviour was born.
Of course he did not save anyone till much later.
T8…OK, lets take another example written in scriptures Isa 9:6… “for unto us a child “is” born, unto us a son “is” given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty one, the everlasting one, the prince of peace.
Now do you see the words i highlighted “is” born, “is” given? do you actually believe he was then existing as a born child or was actually, then given? According to your way of seeing this , you would tell us, the “is” means it already happened, right?
JESUS was not our savior at berth, he became our savior. come on T8, SURELY YOU CAN PUT THIS TOGETHER BROTHER.
peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
T8,
I believe the words as they are written but then I have been granted understanding beyond you because you refuse it though it is freely available.
Jesus Christ became the Savior by sacrificing himself on the cross and the angel was well aware that something of that he God stated he would become our savior.
There is only one reason we say Jesus is our Savior and it is not because of anything he did before he was born.
Hi t8,
Just as soon as you explain to us why you do not think the Saviour was born.
Of course he did not save anyone till much later.
But he was born the savior whereas you contradicted this by saying:
Of course Jesus was made both Lord and Christ so was not conceived or born as such.
https://heavennet.net/forums/topic/is-jesus-the-logos/page/49/#post-808401You haven’t said you were wrong yet, so can only assume you still hold this view.
He was born the savior and no amount of arguing against that will change reality.
OK, lets take another example written in scriptures Isa 9:6
You don’t need to. The angel’s declaration about the savior is good enough to stand on its own. Unless you can point out that it was translated incorrectly, then Jesus was born the savior. Accept it or admit you are fighting scripture itself.
t8.
Scripture does not tell us when Jesus was anointed to be King.
Scripture clearly states that he was born the savior, messiah, and son of God.
Simple. Move on or continue to have a problem with scripture.
I don’t have a problem though, even if you have one with me.
As long as my views are aligned with scripture, I feel secure in what I believe. As soon as I need to use human understanding to contradict it, then in my heart I would know something was wrong.
t8,
I am not the one in error you are and the error is so plain that I a confident you are in the denial process of grieving.
You are well aware that Jesus became our Savior because of the blood he shed on the cross and therefore could not yet be a savior the time he was born.
Therefore it follows it follows that he is foretold to be the Savior and the angel was sure it would occur.
Those that have faith the Messiah would be born also believe as the angel did.
Therefore put off your grieving and denial that comes thereof and put on faith and believe that Jesus is the Anointed One that God foretold would come.
He was foretold to be the Christ, Savior, and Chief son of God and has become all those things and will continue to be so.
t8,
And I will again that Scripture does not say when Jesus, aka LordIsSalvation, was anointed for the kings of Israel have continuously been anointed with oil. If Psalms 23 is a prophecy then he was crowned as King of Israel by the Romans; he was anointed with his own blood and his crown is that of blood. It could also mean he was anointed afterwards for he said he was given authority over all things in heave and on earth. He did not have that level of authority until he went away at the time he spoke in John 16:7.
I do know that the evidence reveals that God made him the Prince and Heir to the throne of David as soon as he came into this world because it is written “Let all God’s angels worship him”. Only a few were anointed princes and all of them by Samuel, aka NameofGod. Of them Saul, aka AskedFor, became king shortly thereafter, David , aka Beloved, remained a God-appointed but non-official prince for many years, and the third went on to become king of the ten tribes when they later rebelled against Solomon’s son.
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