Was jesus always superior

Blocked

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 08 2010,06:29)

Mikeboll64,

You are the most ridiculous person i have ever encountered in my whole life.

You make Stuart seem sane.

Now answer the question. You've been stalling and diverting long enough.

mike

November 7, 2010 at 9:32 pm#223564

Participant

You say, 'the one question you have been asking' as if it is the only question you have ever been asking, as if it is somehow the 'make and break' question.

Just because the definition of 'Principalities' contains the word 'Angels' (in fact, it say 'Order of Angels') you leap on it and ignore the whole of the rest of the half post to concentrate on this single word from it.

What you cannot explain is How those Angels were created…Principalities are 'positions' of the Angels, it doesn't mean the actual Angels themselves.
For Angels are only Spirits. What did Jesus do to create the Spirit of the spiritual beings when those spirits are directly from God, hence they are 'Sons of God', not 'Sons of Jesus'.

Even if you stretch the point and say, they were created 'through Jesus', how, how would that be done?
God gave Jesus his spirit to Jesus and said 'do it'?
But if Jesus created the 'positions' for the Spirit creatures, then that is believable.

Just as Jesus says to the Disciples, 'In my Fathers mansion there are many rooms (Positions), I go to prepare a place for you. If it were not so, I would [not] have told you'

So, is Jesus going to created new heavenly Disciples, or is he going to create a position for those of mankind who overcome and are 'Begotten Sons of God, brothers of Jesus, co-heirs with Christ'.

In fact, the only thing that you swing your whole argument on is 'All things were created through him and without him not one thing that was created was created apart from him.'

Yet, not overpressing the point, but there then innumerable verses stating absolutely clearly, that God, and God alone, who, BY HIMSELF, created ALL THINGS.

My assertion is that, yes, also through agents. God employed His Angelic Host in the creation of the Heavens and the Earth and all within, and chief among the Angelic host helpers was 'Jesus', who was found to be the most righteous and thus was exalted to that chief position and, in time, given the Chief credit.

Your rather limp response concerning Satan being given the Earth as his dominion, does not fit into the account of 'what Lucifer did to warrant his demands to be wirshipped'

In this, Mike, it shows to what extent you will go to write dribble, or truth to you. Your response was nothing in keeping with the question.

What role did Lucifer play in the creation of the 'everything' such that he felt worthy to receive Worship from mankind. If he did nothing, then how could he have expected such a grandiose gestuer?
The answer, Mike, is to be found at the beginning of human time.

And why did 'Jesus' not request Worship, or even praise, honor or glory? For surely he is the one who deserves to be given the high praise, eh?

November 7, 2010 at 9:33 pm#223565

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 08 2010,06:38)

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 08 2010,01:54)

Shimmer,

Seems like you got two suitors for your spiritual hand…

'The choice', as they say, 'is yours'!

JA, no. Im just reading here, you know.

Don't worry Shimmer, I'm not “courting” you.

I just want you to learn the difference between one who is posting scripturally and one who is not.

And after you learn that, maybe you could start supporting the one who is in line with scripture instead of the one who is posting in opposition to it.

Btw, have you now witnessed from JA exactly what I said you would? Have you noticed that he refuses to answer the one simple question I've been asking, but instead keeps opting to post insults, nonsense and “the world according to JA” posts? He knows that if he HONESTLY answers that one question, then this debate will be over.

peace and love,
mike

November 7, 2010 at 10:43 pm#223566

Participant

Shimmer,
Don't listen to Mike. He's just desoarartely trying to find someone to support his false claims.

It is he who can't staya true course. He says i won't answer his 'one' question but look,,..how many times i've answered, not only his 'one' question but many more…
Mike just wants me to say what he wants to hear. He ignores everything else or posts odd posts just to say he posted.

Shimmer, i'm not trying to confuse you, i'm trying to stop you being confused.

I think you are the perfect arbitrator.

Do you remember that SF was to have a 'managed debate' with Mike?
What happened? The preliminaries concerning rules of the managed debate turned into and 'unmanaged debate' that never got anywhere, like ALL (ALL meaning ALL) Mike's debates/discussions.

November 7, 2010 at 10:50 pm#223567

Participant

JA and Mike,

Your talk about Angels had me thinking. (This is off topic)

How do we know God isnt ONE, as in God is Spirit right, The 'son of God' in the flesh was Jesus.

God is spirit
Through the Holy Spirit which is God/part of God, a Son is born, not of human fatherly flesh but of Spirit.

So the Spirit is given flesh, a flesh body. This is Jesus,

WE.. have a body and we have a Spirit.

We were made in Gods image. Spirit image that would be..

Angels were made as spirit beings, Angels can also appear as flesh.

That would mean three things happening

God
Angels
Humans.

But God is ONE, it says all through the bible,
Angels and Humans are many, as are animals,

Just my thoughts, but remember im quitting smoking so my thoughts are pretty 'stressed' atm

November 8, 2010 at 12:03 am#223571

terraricca

Participant

you say;In fact, the only thing that you swing your whole argument on is 'All things were created through him and without him not one thing that was created was created apart from him.'

Yet, not overpressing the point, but there then innumerable verses stating absolutely clearly, that God, and God alone, who, BY HIMSELF, created ALL THINGS

JA;those two comments you make are not contradict himself ,Christ was used by God to create (all things being created trough Christ)i do not know in witch way that is done.

but Christ was used ,so all the credit goes to God because Christ himself was created.

Pierre

November 8, 2010 at 12:12 am#223572

Participant

Hi Shimmer,

No, God is not Angel, for Angel pertains to mean, 'Messenger'.

There are different 'orders' of Angels, that the one power, God, created to serve Him.

Some attend on Him only, the Seraphims, some about Him and covering the Throne, the Cherubims, others are warrior Angels, some Announcers with Horns and Trumpets, some deliverers of potents, some of messages to mankind. There are Arch Angels who are Princes of God….
In all that is mentioned in Heaven, not once is there a mention of Jesus in the ordinary line of mentions.

He is mentioned as having white hair and a sharp sword as a tongue and eyes of flames when John meets him. Then he is the Lamb, as if slaughtered, when among the the elders and special angels around and in front of the throne of God. So, Jesus is one of 'them' '''standing'''' amongst and around the throne of God.

So what is Jesus…there are no other spirits mentioned in heaven other than God…and…Angels. And they are all ONE of one 'form'…. Spirit, but they have different 'Natures': powers and abilities, authorities, stations and duties as given by their assigned group names…

November 8, 2010 at 12:43 am#223574

Blocked

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 08 2010,08:43)

Don't listen to Mike. He's just desoarartely trying to find someone to support his false claims.

Hi JA,

You are so desperate you can't even spell desperate right anymore!

Seriously though – since you don't want to answer the question, I'll walk you through it. In Eph 6:12, was Paul telling us to put on the full armor of God, not because we wrestle against flesh and blood, but because we wrestle against…….INANIMATE OBJECTS? Of course not. He was speaking of fully living spiritual beings who are the principalities, powers and rulers of the wickedness and darkness of this world. And these INVISIBLE, LIVING, SPIRITUAL BEINGS we wrestle against in Eph 6:12 are the exact same beings Paul says were created through Jesus in Col 1:16.

Face it JA, “all” in this case includes everything except God and Jesus. Which would include angels. And since angels were created through Jesus, he really WAS the “firstborn of all creation”, just as the scriptures tell us. And as such, he has been superior to every single thing in existence except for his God since the moment his God spoke these words to him in the beginning: “You are my Son. Today I have begotten you.”

Are you starting to see how my understanding all ties in together with scripture? Do you see how yours does not?

Look JA, I am willing to walk you through it one step at a time……….IF you're willing to listen. Not to me, but to scripture. Just look at what your biased “Fractal Scriptures” invention has caused you to say……AGAINST the actual scriptures:

1. Satan was God's REAL firstborn Son – against scriptures that say Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY creature and the ONLY begotten Son of God.

2. The world was created with the help of Satan – against scriptures that say all things were created by ONLY God and through ONLY Jesus.

3. Jesus was begotten AFTER he was raised – against the scriptures that teach he was the only begotten Son of God who DIED FOR OUR SINS.

4. People who sin are not sons of God – against scriptures that teach that the whole nation of Israel was made up of God's children…….and we KNOW they sinned.

These are just a few examples JA. And FYI, I was never “slated” to debate SF about anything. It was KJ that I debated about “Plural God”. Look up the thread sometime. See how it “ended”. In fact, look up ALL of the debates I ever had and see how they “ended”. All except the one with Dennison that we asked you to help out on has ended with ME waiting for an answer to a question(s).

And just like you are doing right now, the opponent ran away crying about how they already answered it, but I just didn't accept the answer.

Your answer to my question was to say “the TOWN was created through Jesus, but not the PEOPLE in the town.” And I am showing you clearly from Eph 6:12 that it was not TOWNS that Paul spoke of, but the RULERS of those “towns”. And I've shown you this also from Dictionary.com. But you will have none of it.

Because just like my debates with WJ and KJ, this one started with us “throwing the ball back and forth” and “feeling each other out”. And just like the other debates, I was led to a scripture that SOLIDLY confirms my point while refuting yours. In this case, that scripture is Eph 6:12. And just like the other debates, I know that there is no way you can refute this scripture, so I keep shoving it your face. And just like the other debates, you realize you can't refute it, and instead of admitting you've learned something, you would rather cry “Foul!”.

That is how my debates always end, and that is why my opponents have no recourse but to say, “I'm done with this because I've already answered your question and you won't stop asking it.”

So JA, one more chance for you here. It is a SIMPLE Yes or No question, so a simple Yes or No will suffice. There is no need to add anything else as an “explanation” for this particular question, for it REALLY does only require a Yes or a No. Ready?

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Do you think these “principalities and powers and rulers” mentioned in Eph 6:12 are inanimate objects?

Yes or No JA.

mike

November 8, 2010 at 12:48 am#223575

Blocked

Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 08 2010,10:12)

So what is Jesus…there are no other spirits mentioned in heaven other than God…and…Angels.

I don't remember the four creatures who worship day and night before Jehovah's throne being called “angels”, do you JA?

They apparently aren't “messengers”, for they never leave God's throne.

I don't know what category they fall into, but I do know they are not referred to as “angels”. And if they are spiritual beings in heaven who are not angels, then why can't Jesus also be something different from the “angels”?

Just food for thought.

mike

November 8, 2010 at 12:59 am#223576

terraricca

Participant

this is a scripture that kind of show what Christ does and did in heaven;
Jn 5:17 Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.”
Jn 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Jn 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.

so the way that God worked trough Jesus while on earth it seems the same way it is in heaven.

Pierre

November 8, 2010 at 2:02 am#223579

Participant

JA, I never said God is an Angel, I said God is spirit.

There 3 things mentioned in scripture…

God
Angels
Man

God…the creator of all there is, things seen, things not seen, things earthly, things heavenly, things spiritual, ONE God ONLY one creator, is what scripture says…not two Gods..Where is two Gods mentioned ? There is only the one God and then Angels and Man.

Jesus born of human mother but as a Father has God….when he speaks he speaks of all 'His Father' has shown him and taught him.

We have human Fathers, Jesus had a heavenly one. Wow. We only know a bit of it, what Jesus was shown spiritually through his Father.

So, Jesus is crucified, Jesus is risen from the dead.

Goes to Heaven to be seated next to his Father God, God can be our Father too, and the Father of Angels. But Angels are spirit beings and Humans ar flesh and blood. (and those who will be born again not of flesh and blood but of spirit) But this Jesus has God as Father. The only Human ever to have God as Father, no earthly one, apart from Adam (first Adam was from the earth, second Adam was from above)

So 'If you have seen me you have seen the Father' Is God then some huge horrifying tormenting being ? Jesus, was one of us, acted like one of us. Therefore God must be like us though God is perfect, WE were made in Gods (spiritual) image. We love, we laugh, we cry, we worry, etc, And as God was shown 'in the flesh' through his son, so we have the flesh.

God is one. All through the old testement and the new this is repeated, God is one. Not two or three, not two or three as one, but ONE. God cannot be seen. God is spirit. But Jesus is flesh. Jesus speaks for God, Jesus has the mind of God.

As i said just my thoughts.

November 8, 2010 at 9:55 am#223607

Participant

Mike,

You are ridiculous as the comebacks that you make.

You use extranuous point to make your claims against me because you have nothing else to say.

First off, i never said that Lucifer was God's firstborn in such a way that makes it a fact for you to use against me.
I said it was a theory i was working on. It is not 'fair nor reasonable' to use that and smacks of the level of underhandedness you will stoop to.
The 'theory' was based on Scriptural Fractals, which quite frankly, i'm aghast to hear you say are, in effect, of no value!! To me, it is a perfect way of maintaining truth because 'Fractals' repeat almost perfectly, the original theme and any corruption in one said theme can be corrected by looking at the other fractal themes. Hence, illegally inserted, or removed words, corrupted stories, added phrases, etc, can easiy be spotted. Do you seriously believe that, as man can do this for his own data storage, data transmission, information discemination by means of error correction, that God would not do the same for his written word? Are you serious? Or is there some other reason, Mike?

The world made with the help of Satan…Lucifer…remember that Lucifer was not 'Always' a Satan.

What does Scriptures say about him. What did God say about him?
And, why did he think that he deserved WORSHIP.
To believe that one deserves worship in the face of The Mighty one, God Almighty, is no small thing. It is outrageous.
And who else would think of making such an outrageous claim?

Mike, if you had a number of Sons who aided you in the creation of a wonderous thing and one of your sons came and said, 'I want the worshipful credited like you for this great creation', Mike, which one of your sons would that most likely to be?
The quiet, longsuffering, compliant son; the boisterous ones who sometimes wanted to do their own thing if you didn't keep an eye on them; or the haughty, lofty, selfingraciating 'yes', son?
And Mike, to whom would you, in the end, hold your candle up to.

Mike, you cannot answer the simple question as to what purpose the angels were created for if not to aid God in his great creation. In fact you almost refuse to believe that they did anything at all.
So, Jesus just created these angels for no reason at all but to cheer when the work was done…Mike, Mike…

“He makes his Angels messengers”…God makes his Angels…So 'SOME' Angels are messengers…ALL sentient creations of God are ANGELS with different stations…that is why there are no other beings mentioned in Heaven.

As Shimmer says:
God, the source of all;
Angels, Spirit Sons of God;
And on Earth, Man, ['Sons of God'] in the Flesh.

Mike, search as you like, there are no other entity types in Scriptures. Seraphims, are Angels.
Cherubims, are Angels.
Messengers, are Angels.
Elders…are mankind in Spirit

Mike…have you sketched your timeline and added the themes?

Begotten. Hebrews 5-6…
Then read John…he has inserted 'only begotten' not as preExistent 'begotten' but as apreSpiritAdoption.
Mike read it through…John is writing as though Jesus was already raised by God….'the Glory of the Only Begotten'…Mike, Jesus was NOT 'In Glory' until after he was raised from the dead and made Hign Priest and King, acquiring the 'Glory of God' by the Holy Spirit, as the ONLY Begotten, because he was the Only Begotten after he was raised up. Others, to begotten when they too are 'perfected' like Christ, In Christ.
Christ, the first to be come into God's kingdom, the first over God's kingdom.

Mike, you need to read in context else nothing will make ultimate sense…bitty sense, but not in a complete timeline…
Stop being desperate to be seen as right, to regain your lost credibility, your lost status.
As the song title, in paraphrase, goes, 'Relax, when you want to …' (Franky Goes to Holliwood)
Or, 'Chill, Winstan'!!

November 8, 2010 at 10:09 am#223608

Ed J

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 08 2010,12:02)

JA, I never said God is an Angel, I said God is spirit.

There 3 things mentioned in scripture…

God
Angels
Man

Jesus born of human mother but as a Father has God….when he speaks he speaks of all 'His Father' has shown him and taught him.

We have human Fathers, Jesus had a heavenly one. Wow. We only know a bit of it, what Jesus was shown spiritually through his Father.

So, Jesus is crucified, Jesus is risen from the dead.

As i said just my thoughts.

Hi Shimmer,

Good Post, and I agree!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

November 8, 2010 at 10:28 am#223610

Participant

Hi Ed. True ? Good to see you are talking to me again !

Mike, JustAskin is right these are all that is mentioned in scripture, God…Angels…Man..

God is spirit
Angels are spirit
Whatever Jesus was pre-Jesus would have been spirit, definatly not flesh, only we are flesh.
Is JA saying Jesus was an Angel ?…if so then whos to say JA is wrong ? There are many who agree with that. Seventh day Adventists and JWs example.

When was Jesus begotten ? Jesus was begotten when scripture says he was begotten…the day He was risen from the dead.

And Mike, fractal scriptures, my mother has writen and published a few books and in one, half the book is her own observation on how scripture is fractal, probably most of it..I dont know I havent read all of it…. I suppose I should.

November 8, 2010 at 11:01 am#223612

Participant

And also, someone mentioned begotten,

(YLT)..

Psalm 2:7…”I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, 'My Son Thou art, I to-day have brought thee forth“

Acts 13:33…”.God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm (above) it hath been written, My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee

Brought thee forth (Psalms) = begotten (Acts) = raised up (Acts)…three words used for the same thing, do you see that ?

To see the full story you need to read all of Acts 13.

November 8, 2010 at 4:19 pm#223631

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 08 2010,08:50)

JA and Mike,

Your talk about Angels had me thinking. (This is off topic)

How do we know God isnt ONE, as in God is Spirit right, The 'son of God' in the flesh was Jesus.

God is spirit
Through the Holy Spirit which is God/part of God, a Son is born, not of human fatherly flesh but of Spirit.

So the Spirit is given flesh, a flesh body. This is Jesus,

WE.. have a body and we have a Spirit.

We were made in Gods image. Spirit image that would be..

Angels were made as spirit beings, Angels can also appear as flesh.

That would mean three things happening

God
Angels
Humans.

But God is ONE, it says all through the bible,
Angels and Humans are many, as are animals,

Just my thoughts, but remember im quitting smoking so my thoughts are pretty 'stressed' atm

Shimmer ………….You have a better understanding then either JA or Mike concerning Spirit. Yes GOD is Pure Spirit, and you can not see Spirit, and Man has the Spirit of or from GOD (IN) him, as well as all Animated Creation does. If GOD were to retract his Spirit (ALL) would cease to Live . Angels are Beings they have bodies) and Spirits given then by GOD. God is the only one who can live (IN) a Body or Outside of a BODY, no one else can.

When a man dies the spirit given him returns to GOD who gave it in the first place. Jesus said we were to be as the angles in the resurrection and that does include a Body, just as Jesus Had after his resurrection. A Soul cannot be a living Soul without a Body of some kind for the Spirit to be (IN). God who (is) Spirit was (IN) Jesus Just as Jesus said He was. Jesus had no superiority over anyone until he attained to it, how be it it was all attained by the effectual working of the Spirit of GOD (IN) Him. He was Perfected by that Spirit , He overcame by that Spirit, He was raised from the dead By that Spirit, He was begotten of God at the Jordan by that same Spirit.

Gods spirit is what life is, in man, angles, animals, in all things that has life in it. It is all accomplished by Spirit. Problem here most do not understand what Spirit is. They think Spirits are (BEINGS) but in fact Spirit is what is (IN) Beings.

Jesus became Superior because he was the first of man kind to attain the that position, a position that was Planned and foreordained before God ever started the World and put humans on it . Jesus is no more the son of GOD the Adam Was, or we are for that matter. It was DNA constructed IN FLESH and BLOOD, that created and brought into existence the MAN JESUS, Who attained to the First man resurected from the Grave and given eternal life, the first human to achieve that Goal that God has planned for all humanity. IMO

Never separate Jesus from your own Identity Shimmer, He is one of US.

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

November 8, 2010 at 8:06 pm#223651

Participant

Hi Gene.

Thanks, I wondered that. Angels having bodies, those risen to eternal life will be like the Angels.

Gene, Jesus being just a man…I believe Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit without an earthly Father so Jesus was different though He could have sinned, (Jesus was not God only God is perfect)

Adam was of the earth, Jesus was of Heaven, His spirit was.

I had myself too confused Gene, especially with Hermas, so I have gone back to what I first believed, which is…….God, Father Almighty, Creator of the Heavens and of the Earth. Jesus Christ, Gods Son, our Lord. Concieved through the power of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended to the dead and on the the third day rose again. He ascended to Heaven, and is seated on God's right hand. He will come again to judge the living and the dead……it's easier for me to believe Gene, less confusing.

Maybe Jesus was an Angel ?

November 8, 2010 at 9:23 pm#223662

Baker

Participant

To All!
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

All these Scriptures teach me that first Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. No Angels in Heaven yet

Second God created all through Jesus. That is what I read what Mike was saying…..

If Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, then when God through Jesus created all that are in Heaven, He also created the Angels. That is clearly visible/ He created that is visible and that is not visible….
It is not that hard to understand, and I don't understand that anyone has a problem with it,unless that someone does not have Gods Holy Spirit…….Irene

November 8, 2010 at 9:42 pm#223663

terraricca

Participant

you say;Elders…are mankind in Spirit

this i do not agree,a elders is a man who has acquired suffusion knowledge in Gods word so that he understand it but who also practise it.for a certain time period ,and is seen from others to be that way.

Pierre

November 8, 2010 at 10:23 pm#223671