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Mike,
The acts of Cain and Saul, like Lucifer, and all who remain in sin at the end, after the judgement, will be expunged from the memory of the those who attain 'Life'.
Do you think the new heaven and the new earth will retain knowledge of the old?
If so, then the memories of those in sin, will indeed be as 'everlasting torture'.
But Scriptures tell us that 'There will be no more tears and no more weeping for the former things [will have] passed away'.Mike,
In the UK it's morning time.
My waking thought to you in rhyme:For, once knowledge lost, but now is found.
This means you've attained a higher ground.
You've smashed a barrier, broken your bound.
That is 'Victory', now how does that sound?Mike, when you are taught a lesson, when you learn a lesson, when your 'King' falls before your opponents 'Checkmate', don't perceive it as a loss.
The knowledge you gained from the interplay, use it beneficially, see it as a gain.You have acquired knowledge. What knowledge has your opponent gained, sometimes none!
Why, because his skill was not tested against you.
Mike, it is you, even as you learn to be gracious to defeat, you gain 'grace' in new knowledge.What if you were to be the 'checkmater'…you would have only consolidated false knowledge, compounded wrongful thinking.
Mike, how much sweeter the loss of false knowledge, if it means victory in [a more] truthful understanding.
Mike, This is Wisdom.
Mike,
The answer to your question: Senior before or after.The answer is 'After'.
Just as Scripture says, 'He was raised to a higher position above, his brethren'.
Does this not imply that he was not previously 'Above' his brethren.
Previously, he was the 'Most beloved' by the Father, just as Jacob was more beloved than Esau.
Mike, what is the name of David's eldest brother, The firstborn of Jesse?
Wasn't David's brother angry with David for doing good. Even called David, 'Conceited' and 'Wicked'?
And didn't Saul initially believe that Eliab should be anointed because he was handsome and tall…like Lucifer, like Saul…and did they both fall, hmmm, yes, as I recall.And Didn't Joseph's brothers say to him, 'Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actuall rule us?'
Didn't his brothers hate him because, 'The father loved him more than his brethren'
…yet he was not the 'Firstborn Son' by whatever meaning at that time.
…Yet 'they', both Joseph And David came to rule over them at a later time AFTER they were 'raised up in Kingly prominence'.
They 'died' figuratively, from their previous positions as servants to the King and were reborn as rulers.
Joseph, to show the outer view, as 'Under his King' even while he was acting as King in place of the King; Jesus ruling in place of God.
And David, the close up view, ruling AS King and the deeds he performed; Jesus, ruling as King, and the deeds he has, is and will be performing.Mike, rather than spend huge amount of time debating the minutae of Greek Words and which 'Fathers' said what to whom, all the back and forth of pointless debates disguised as discussions, how about showing your lines of thought directly from Scriptures.
Show the links and how they follow, one onto another, each in harmony, empathic Scriptures, the Fractal repetitiveness that concretes one point onto another, making rock solid personal doctrine (personal…because no one of sinful mankind has all knowledge…and 'all' does mean 'ALL' here!)Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 28 2010,18:06) Mike, The acts of Cain and Saul, like Lucifer, and all who remain in sin at the end, after the judgement, will be expunged from the memory of the those who attain 'Life'.
Do you think the new heaven and the new earth will retain knowledge of the old?
If so, then the memories of those in sin, will indeed be as 'everlasting torture'.
But Scriptures tell us that 'There will be no more tears and no more weeping for the former things [will have] passed away'.
JA……….right God allowed all the effects of Evil just so we will forget it in the future and never remember it right , Another false teachings of yours . These lesson learned hear will never be forgotten, if that were the case then that would make God a sadistic beast at best. Where do you get your wierd thoughts from anyway.Here is some for you to think about.
Rev 14:11………> And the (smoke) of their torment ascends up forever and ever: and they have no rest day or night , who worship the beast and his (IMAGE), and whosoever receives the mark of his name.
Smoke is what is seen as a result of fire, Fire in scripture is Judgements of GOD and the smoke that (is seen) (for ever) is the results of that Judgment.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Gene,
Why do you come here spouting half truths?
Do you have nothing else to do but try to claim false criticism.Have i not written what i wrote before? Is it new? Have you not seen it in expanded form?
I wrote this for the sake of Mikeboll64, not for your foul mind.
Go seek another to spew your foulness over.
Gene,
Picking Scripture verses and using them as YOU please is not what learning, understanding, nor Scriptural wisdom is about.Ecclesiates 9:5, 'The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. There is no reward for the dead when the memory of them has faded'
Revelation 21:4, 'God shall wipe away all tears from their eye; and there will be n more death, neither sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain'
Psalms 37:10, 11, 'And a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; '
Gene, do you read past, back and forth between the 'select' parts you want to say something? Do you not know that others will do so?
Why do you post 'bitty' hoping to decieve, or else, falsely believing that you are being wise?The 'Smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image…'
Gene, death and Satan, the beast, nor the dragon, have been done away with at that time….note that the text is in the 'present tense', 'o for anyone who RECEIVES the mark of his name'.
Then later, in Rev 20:4 it says of those who had not RECEIVED the Mark and died for God and Christ, '….They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years'. The first ressurection.One for Mike:
Rev 21: 7, God says, “He that overcomes will inherit…, and I will HIS God and he Will Be MY SON'… Just as Jesus Overcame and became Son of God after he said to him, 'You are MY SON'.
After he overcame….
Gene, the Wicked have now been thrown into the sulfurous fire along with death, the beast, Satan.
So, this means they are no more.Then God bring about the new jersusalem, and the new heaven and earth, and the Glory of God and the Lamb are suddenly there, in all godly splendour.
So Gene, you say then that the wicked will still be there. The lake of fire will still be witheringly smoking up the torment of the wicked for all to see and the memories of them to bring to mind?
Is that right, Gene.
Now ask yourself why God would want to retain such a horror in his glorious new kingdom?
Further more, the 'Torment' can only be figurative, meaning, 'Eternally cut off from God'. for a spirit creature, being out of the presence of God is torment, being eternally outof the presence of God, is, eternal torment.
Gene, if you cut a cancer from your body, do you keep it in a jar to eternally remind yourself of it, or do you get rid of it and never bring it back to mind, idealistically. Why would you want to remember the pain and suffering of it and where it might have led to?
When a woman goes through childbirth, she suffers during, but afterwards, after the reward, she forgets it all, idealistically, otherwise why do they do it a second, third, fourth time…?
When you cut yourself severely, after the wound is healed, who wants to retain the memory of it?
God gives us the ability to 'forget'.Forget, yes, but the lesson of the pain, not the pain itself, is retained.
Same then as God will do.
The pain and torment of Sin and Death and he that brought it are removed from the memory…but the lesson of Sin remains as a deterent to any who may, never will, raise a future challenge.
No one is 'literally' tormented everlastingly and certainly not any of mankind in the flesh.
JA:
Quote Mike, The acts of Cain and Saul, like Lucifer, and all who remain in sin at the end, after the judgement, will be expunged from the memory of the those who attain 'Life'.
That doesn't exactly add up to your theory……if I understand it correctly. I understand you to be saying that all things actually came through “Jesus and others”. But because the “others” have somehow messed up, only Jesus retains the credit of having creation come through him. Is that correct?JA:
Quote Do you think the new heaven and the new earth will retain knowledge of the old?
I don't understand the wording here, but I strongly believe we will be raised with the complete memories of our former lives. Otherwise, how else could we understand the reason for the verdict rendered upon us after being judged? And I see no reason whatsoever for those memories to be erased from the minds of the chosen ones at a later date. I think those memories will be our basis for teaching others about God's love and how trustworthy He is. Can you imagine raising Abraham with a lot of hoopla, but he has no idea what the hoopla is about because he doesn't even know why he's there, who he is, or what he ever did to deserve the hoopla?By being raised with our memories intact, God's people throughout the history of the world will know they followed the right path. And those who were tortured and killed for God and His Christ will see the vengeance that Jehovah has had in store for them realized before their own eyes.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Oct. 28 2010,18:20) Mike, when you are taught a lesson, when you learn a lesson, when your 'King' falls before your opponents 'Checkmate', don't perceive it as a loss.
The knowledge you gained from the interplay, use it beneficially, see it as a gain.You have acquired knowledge. What knowledge has your opponent gained, sometimes none!
Why, because his skill was not tested against you.
Mike, it is you, even as you learn to be gracious to defeat, you gain 'grace' in new knowledge.What if you were to be the 'checkmater'…you would have only consolidated false knowledge, compounded wrongful thinking.
Mike, how much sweeter the loss of false knowledge, if it means victory in [a more] truthful understanding.
Mike, This is Wisdom.
JA, That is a beautiful post. Now go and apply those words to yourself.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 28 2010,18:33) Previously, he was the 'Most beloved' by the Father, just as Jacob was more beloved than Esau.
Now we're finally getting somewhere.WHY? Why was Jesus the most beloved by the Father even way back then? Why was he more beloved than Satan, who according to you was God's “real firstborn”………..BEFORE Satan ever “messed up” in the Garden of Eden?
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 29 2010,02:32) Mike, what is the name of David's eldest brother, The firstborn of Jesse? Wasn't David's brother angry with David for doing good. Even called David, 'Conceited' and 'Wicked'?
And didn't Saul initially believe that Eliab should be anointed because he was handsome and tall…like Lucifer, like Saul…and did they both fall, hmmm, yes, as I recall.
Yet as I recall, we know much about the things Saul did……..both good and bad. Why would such an important lesson about Satan be omitted? Why wouldn't it be prominently displayed on the pages of scripture how God's “REAL” firstborn Son messed up, so God “appointed” Jesus to take his place? Remember Jesus? The one who, according to you was “the most beloved” by God even BEFORE Satan messed up? And finally, if God actually created the universe through Satan, why would God then lie and say “through Jesus” after the fact? Or if God created the universe through ALL of “the others”, why take away the credit from those of “the others” that DIDN'T MESS UP? “Others” like Michael and Gabriel?mike
Mike,
I can see you turning into Gene and WJ.You clearly have seen the sense in my points and your writing betrays your negativity to truth.
You ask for information and promptly ignore it explicitly.
I have seen others say this about you frequently.
Therefore, it can be concluded that you are not after Truth, but simply trying to see if you can get anyone to agree with you.
Mike, put the unformztion that i present to you in proper perspective in your own mind and you will see that it all works.
The fact that you can't get past…'Begotten' shows you are not able to see higher aspect, hence you remain in the shallows, the 'Dolphin Pool' for kiddies.
Mike, don't go out much further, else the Scriotural waters will get too deep for you and you will flounder, even more than you are floundering in the Dolphin pool.
You thought, like WJ, that you were going to 'show me how'…ha ha…paper, scissor, stone…paper, scissor, stone…Mike, choose one!
Mike, did you solve the cryptic crossword i set you? No? Why does that not surprise me…it was so easy…
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 29 2010,11:11) Mike,
I can see you turning into Gene and WJ.You clearly have seen the sense in my points and your writing betrays your negativity to truth.
You ask for information and promptly ignore it explicitly.
I have seen others say this about you frequently.
Therefore, it can be concluded that you are not after Truth, but simply trying to see if you can get anyone to agree with you.
Mike, put the unformztion that i present to you in proper perspective in your own mind and you will see that it all works.
The fact that you can't get past…'Begotten' shows you are not able to see higher aspect, hence you remain in the shallows, the 'Dolphin Pool' for kiddies.
Mike, don't go out much further, else the Scriotural waters will get too deep for you and you will flounder, even more than you are floundering in the Dolphin pool.
You thought, like WJ, that you were going to 'show me how'…ha ha…paper, scissor, stone…paper, scissor, stone…Mike, choose one!
Mike, did you solve the cryptic crossword i set you? No? Why does that not surprise me…it was so easy…
Hi JustAskin,I have found MikeBoll64 to be one of the more open people to new information here,
yet the way you portray him one might think he is one of the more close minded people.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (JustAskin @ Oct. 29 2010,02:39) Mike, rather than spend huge amount of time debating the minutae of Greek Words and which 'Fathers' said what to whom, all the back and forth of pointless debates disguised as discussions, how about showing your lines of thought directly from Scriptures.
Show the links and how they follow, one onto another, each in harmony, empathic Scriptures, the Fractal repetitiveness that concretes one point onto another, making rock solid personal doctrine (personal…because no one of sinful mankind has all knowledge…and 'all' does mean 'ALL' here!)
Hi JA,First, you've never answered to the Apostle John's words, “NOT ONE THING came into existence without him”. So don't put all your eggs into the “ALL might not really mean ALL” basket.
Second, I have just showed you my “links” of the many scriptures that say Jesus was the first thing God ever created……..and that all [other]
things were created THROUGH him.And finally, I'm glad you watched the Discovery Channel program about how the universe is “fractal”. I'm happy you researched into it a little. And I don't even mind you applying that theory to scriptures…………..IF YOU CAN DO IT WITHOUT TWISTING THEM. But you are putting your “EVERYTHING is fractal” theory OVER and ABOVE the scriptures themselves.
Take Psalm 2:7, for instance. Now there is NO scriptural reason whatsoever to just “imagine” it speaks of a “figurative” begetting. Unlike the Greek speaking Jews of Jesus' time, the original Israelites didn't use that word in a figurative way……..and it was to those people that God was originally speaking in that Psalm. And even in the rare occasions that it was used figuratively in the NT, it was VERY CLEAR by the context that it WAS being used figuratively. The fact is that Jesus told Nicodemus God had already SENT His only begotten Son INTO THE WORLD – yet you say he didn't get “appointed” to that “position” until after he was raised, because that is the scriptural “truth” that best fits into your doctrine. So you have to “imagine” that Jesus was talking “past tense” about something that hadn't yet happened, to a man who was barely coming to an understanding about the Messiah. Talk about confusing.
And you ignore the fact that God hasn't “SENT” His only begotten Son “INTO THE WORLD” as a sacrifice……..AFTER he was raised.And take “firstborn of all creation”. How much more straightforward could Paul have said it? Jesus confirmed it by saying he was “the beginning of the creation by God”. And he also said “God brought me forth as the beginning of His works”.
Then add in the fact that “all things visible and invisible” were created through………..ONLY HIM. And the fact that “nothing came into existence without”………..ONLY HIM.
This is just another example of how a person is willing to “overlook”, “rearrange”, “twist” or “completely ignore” scriptures. And for what? Just so they can make the scriptures conform to some crazy thought in their head. And in each case that I deal with this phenomenon, that “crazy thought” is not even scriptural to begin with. For example, Keith thinking God is a trinity Godhead. Kathi thinking Jesus is “an extension” of the being of God, and should therefore be worshipped as God. Gene thinking we can't be saved unless Jesus was EXACTLY like us. And now you, thinking Satan was God's “real” firstborn Son……..just so scripture can better fit into your “fractal” theory.
And if you don't care about what the Greek words meant or about the many times they are mistranslated just to support the trinity, then that's fine with me. But I will freely and happily used the resources available to me.
You want MY understanding? Okay. God was alone. God begot a Son unto Himself. Through that Son, God created everything else. Satan, as one of the beings created through God's only begotten Son, was granted earth as “his own little piece of the pie”. He had the chance to watch over and help the humans that God put here, but he overstepped his bounds. Many people think that Satan thought he was as mighty as God Himself and wanted to BE God. Others think he was challenging God's right to rule His own creation the way He saw fit. God does ask us to be righteous so He can make an answer to the one who is taunting Him, so maybe those people are right. I personally think God gave Satan the earth, but laid down a few specific rules about how he should “govern” the humans.
At any rate, Satan went against God, which caused sin and death to come into the world and all of us. And for a while, the animal sacrifices sufficed as a “figurative” way for God to “pretend” our sins had been atoned for. But soon, mankind became so much more sinful, that no animal sacrifice would suffice. God had two choices, destroy us all and be done with it, or sacrifice something so important to Him that it could be considered a “worthy” atoning sacrifice. This was the only way He could still “pretend” we were righteous enough to even deserve Him. And God loved the world so much, that He made this heartbreaking choice of sacrificing His only begotten, much beloved Son as a way to “erase” the memory of our sins from his mind. Without that sacrifice, God could never be righteous in ever calling any one of us “righteous”. And because he loved us, he still wanted us to have “another chance” at getting back on the right track. Therefore He witnessed His most beloved creation of all be brutally beaten, ridiculed, spat upon, and killed……by the very insignificant human race He was saving. God then raised Jesus from the dead and bestowed even greater honor on him than he already had as God's only “natural” offspring.
Scriptures say that God placed Pharoah as King over Egypt and then brought him down low, just so the world would see His power and know He is the One in control of things. Is it a “fractal opposite” that He brought Jesus down low and then raised him to the highest name in heaven besides His own for the same reason?
Just remember this JA: “Fractal Repetitiveness” is not a scriptural term. The Bible contains many “themes” that are later repeated……..some of them many times. But it also contains events that are “one of a kind”. Don't rewrite the scriptures just to make them all “Fractally Repetitive”.
And please don't go into debating all of my beliefs listed above in this thread. This thread is about the superiority of Jesus over “the others”. I only went into all this because I think that's what you were asking.
Now, if you have a question or point you want addressed, bring it up in your post that answers why Jesus was the most beloved even back then.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Oct. 29 2010,11:11) Mike,
I can see you turning into Gene and WJ.You clearly have seen the sense in my points and your writing betrays your negativity to truth.
You ask for information and promptly ignore it explicitly.
I have seen others say this about you frequently.
Therefore, it can be concluded that you are not after Truth, but simply trying to see if you can get anyone to agree with you.
Mike, put the unformztion that i present to you in proper perspective in your own mind and you will see that it all works.
The fact that you can't get past…'Begotten' shows you are not able to see higher aspect, hence you remain in the shallows, the 'Dolphin Pool' for kiddies.
Mike, don't go out much further, else the Scriotural waters will get too deep for you and you will flounder, even more than you are floundering in the Dolphin pool.
You thought, like WJ, that you were going to 'show me how'…ha ha…paper, scissor, stone…paper, scissor, stone…Mike, choose one!
Mike, did you solve the cryptic crossword i set you? No? Why does that not surprise me…it was so easy…
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Edit))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Hi JustAskin,I have found MikeBoll64 to be one of the more open minded people to new information here,
yet the way you portray him one might think he is one of the more close minded people.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgJA:
Quote Mike,
I can see you turning into Gene and WJ.
Senseless and unimportant commentary designed to insult or ridicule. Has nothing to do with the point(s) we are discussing.JA:
Quote You clearly have seen the sense in my points and your writing betrays your negativity to truth.
Same comment as above, for I see much NONSENSE in your “points”.JA:
Quote You ask for information and promptly ignore it explicitly.
I'm not aware of any. As far as I know, we are trying to get to the bottom of why Jesus was more beloved than Satan even before Satan messed up.JA:
Quote I have seen others say this about you frequently.
Nothing but an inflammatory statement designed to insult……..by using the self proclaimed support of others.JA:
Quote Therefore, it can be concluded that you are not after Truth, but simply trying to see if you can get anyone to agree with you.
Another one-sided judgement on me from someone who knows very little about me or my intentions. Btw, you're wrong.JA:
Quote Mike, put the unformztion that i present to you in proper perspective in your own mind and you will see that it all works.
Walk me through it step by step. God created Satan first……..and then what?JA:
Quote The fact that you can't get past…'Begotten' shows you are not able to see higher aspect, hence you remain in the shallows, the 'Dolphin Pool' for kiddies.
Senseless insult to my person that does nothing to deal with the points we are discussing.JA:
Quote Mike, don't go out much further, else the Scriotural waters will get too deep for you and you will flounder, even more than you are floundering in the Dolphin pool.
Same as above.JA:
Quote You thought, like WJ, that you were going to 'show me how'…ha ha…paper, scissor, stone…paper, scissor, stone…Mike, choose one!
Childish taunt that has nothing to do with the topic of our discussion.JA:
Quote Mike, did you solve the cryptic crossword i set you? No? Why does that not surprise me…it was so easy…
Senseless insult.Add it up JA. What have you said in this post that answers why Jesus was the most beloved? And how much time did you waste on senseless insults and taunts that are too childish for me to even respond to?
And that was one of your smaller posts. 
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,12:17) Hi JustAskin, I have found MikeBoll64 to be one of the more open minded people to new information here,
yet the way you portray him one might think he is one of the more close minded people.God bless
Ed J
Thanks Ed,What happened, is that “IN THE BEGINNING” (for SF
), I honestly said I will alter my understanding of scriptures in light of previously unknown (to me) scriptural evidence. I have since altered it because of things said by Kathi, Nick Hasson, and others.But then certain others post an analogy, or a scripture out of context, and then cry, “But you said………!”
For example, Gene quotes Peter saying Jesus was foreordained…….and then acts upset and surprised that Peter's statement didn't make me change my mind about the pre-existence of Jesus.
JA is now doing it with analogies about builders and whatever else. But those analogies do nothing to diminish the meaning of scriptures that clearly imply Jesus was always something more superior to the angels who were created through him. And he “imagines” that only Jesus is given the credit for having creation be made through him because “historically, the bad guys are expunged from the history books”. He doesn't realize that that is one of the MAIN selling points that the scriptures really ARE an accurate historical account. Almost every other culture in history did what JA points out. They eliminate the “duds” from their national histories. The Bible NEVER does that. We can read about God's chosen peoples' failures right along with their triumphs.
But it's okay. If I can just keep him on point, we'll get there. I'm just waiting for his answer to one question right now…….a question that HE actually brought up.
Why was Jesus the most beloved in the beginning?
Anyway, thanks for the support, but don't expect to be changing my mind about the things WE disagree over without clear scriptural insight.
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike,
It's God's Job to change people, not mine!
I can only explain to others the way I see things.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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