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[/QUOTE]Yet it is called ''Solomon's Temple''.
It's not just that it's called Solomon's temple. It's that in scripture we are specifically told that Solomon built the temple. Yet, we know and understand what this means. It means he had it built. Well, Jehovah had things built. He used a master worker, his son.
So, humans are called “God's son's” just as the temple is called Solomon's temple and just as we understand that Solomon built the temple, so too, God built us, and everything, but it was through his Son.
JA:
Quote 'All' does not ALWAYS mean 'All'.
Is Jesus 'Above ALL'? No, because Scriptures says, 'Excepting Him who put ALL power and authority under him'.
I agree 100% with that statement, and actually have a stalled debate with Keith on that very same issue. And it would be illogical to think it included God, who wasn't “created”.So let me restate my last question to you: But, just for argument's sake, what if it DID only mean invisible “air”, “gasses” and “atomic particles”? Why do you think it is that they came into existence through ONLY Jesus? Why Jesus, and none of the “others”?
Will you answer to the above point, JA? And don't forget that there is more than just the one use of the word “all”. John words it a different way:
John 1:1 NWT
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.Why do you suppose it doesn't say, “In the beginning, the Word…….AND ALL OF THE “OTHERS”…..were with God”?
John 1:3 NWT
3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.Can the spiritual being of an angel be considered as “one thing”? At any rate, now there are TWO scriptures that seem to indicate the angels were created through Jesus. Not to mention that Jesus alone is singled out as being “in the beginning with God”.
JA:
Quote The created beings are called 'Sons of God'. Adam was called 'Son of God'
Why 'of God'. Why not ''Son of 'the one who created them' ''? Therefore, 'Sons of the Son of God'
I do not claim that Jesus created anything at all…….let alone the angels. Scripture credits God ALONE with ALL of creation.JA:
Quote Please show how it is claimed that Jesus was ALWAYS Superior.
You make a valid point. Let's swap the word “superior” to “more distinguished” or “set aside as something more special” than the angels. While I think the being through whom other beings were created would naturally be “superior” to those other beings, I don't know that scripture SPECIFICALLY says that Jesus was “more superior” than those who were created through him. And while I also understand Paul saying, “as much superior to the angels” as indicating he already WAS superior, but now is even MORE superior, I can also see how it could be understood the way you understand it.And I understand Proverbs 8:22 to be Jesus speaking these words, “Jehovah brought me forth as the first of His works……”, but this discussion isn't about whether or not Jesus was “Wisdom Personified” in the book of Proverbs.
And while I understand “firstborn of all creation” and “the beginning of the creation by God” to be literal, I know that you don't, so let's not muddy up the thread with a debate on that.
And I also understand Psalm 2:7 to be the first words Jesus ever heard…..way before “ALL THINGS VISIBLE” were created through him. But I know that you think “begotten Son of God” was only a title that God bestowed on Jesus after he was raised – even though Jesus called himself by that title while he was still flesh.
So there's no sense in going down that road with you again.You, on the other hand, believe Satan was God's REAL firstborn of all creation, and that Satan messed up, so God “appointed” another angel to that position – and Jesus was that “other angel”. And I know full well from my experience on HN that it is like beating my head against a wall to debate someone who already has unscriptural personal reasons for their doctrine.
So let me just clarify one thing: I COULDN'T CARE LESS. If Jesus was just another “angel”, then so be it. If Jesus didn't pre-exist, then I would still try to follow his teachings to the same extent that I do now. If Jesus was a part of a trinity Godhead, it would make no difference in my life at all.
Do you understand that I have NO PERSONAL AGENDA whatsoever? All I want to do is learn more about God and His Christ and follow the scriptural teachings to the best of my ability. It is only when someone here posts their UNSCRIPTURAL beliefs that I go to war in the name of scriptural truth. So if the trinity WAS in fact scriptural, I would be it's #1 proponent…..but it's not. If scripture wasn't so CLEAR about the pre-existence of Jesus, I would not be arguing in support of it……but I do. And if there was even one minute piece of info contained in the scriptures that suggested Satan was God's REAL firstborn, I would be at least willing to look into it. But to the contrary, there is MUCH scriptural evidence to support that Jesus ALONE stood out as something special from the very beginning of the creation of God.
JA:
Quote Leave out the word you added, 'other'. Why did you add it? Because it would blast you argument away.
I quoted the NWT word for word. They encase the word “other” in brackets to show that word is NOT in the original texts……..like many translations do. Their point is that Jesus was created first, like scripture says. So when that verse says that “ALL THINGS” were created through him, they wanted to make clear that Paul's intent (as they understand it) was NOT to say that Jesus himself was created through Jesus. They add the same word in brackets in Luke 11:41 and 11:42 to “clarify” the Greek text in the same manner.And the reason I went with the NWT in this case is because it was the only translation I could find in a hurry that rendered the Greek word “en” as “through” instead of “by”. All things were created THROUGH Jesus, not BY him, as 1 Corinthians 8:6 makes clear. And as is usually the case, the NWT does a more “honest” job of translating the scriptures.
Okay, our reasons for this disagreement are out in the open. You want to create a “fractal” scripture where there is none – indicating that Satan was God's REAL firstborn – and so you are willing to non-sensically change the meaning of many scriptures to accomplish that mission. I am just after scriptural truth, and have no personal reason whatsoever to do anything but believe the scriptures as they are written.
If there was scriptural evidence to support your fractal theory – about which you said to me, “Mike, everyone is entitled to one 'whacked-out' theory” – then I would be fully on board with you.
But not only is there no evidence of your theory, there is MUCH evidence that Jesus was in fact the literal firstborn Son of God and the ONLY begotten Son of God. And since many of my supporting scriptures are “taboo” for you and I to discuss, an answer to my bolded, repeated question above will suffice…….for now.
peace and love,
mikeTesting 1,2,3 ( I'll let t8 know that the pages are “out of sync”. He can fix it, and if you ever post and it doesn't show up, add another quick post behind it to double check that your first post really did show up. And then pm t8 to let him know which thread has the pages out of sync.)
mike
To all,
To answer the question I first must know the in what way you are asking about Jesus being superior. For example it could be authority. For instance my supervisor is superior to me at my workplace as she has more authority than me.
If you mean this kind of authority then Jesus was glorified with his Heir-ship before he even came to exist as God foreknew him and created him at the proper time. Jesus did not inherit his throne until after his death and resurrection. He did not take the throne until after he ascended to heaven.
Paul is superior to me as he is an apostle who God did miracles through.
On the other hand Jesus is not my superior in resisting the devil's temptation, if I believe in him, as Jesus gives those who obey all his teachings the same ability at the same level.
Dear Mike,
Thank you for your exemplary spirited outpouring in you last past to me.It was very well laid out and gives room for your adoption of truth.
However, you ask questions of me for which the answers have already been supplied several times.
Please re-read my posts, as you would the Scriptures, and see that the answers are there.
I did not hold back, and why would i, from supplying my reasoning.
For instance, i gave an example, tne best example, of a houseowner and a builder, and the MANY specialists involved in building a house, but it seems to have been overlooked.
And, i openly state that my 'Lucifer was the original Senior Son' was a 'work in progress' idea based on Fractal Scriptures. Why should fractal sriptures not apply from the beginning…namely, that the firstborn Son sins and is usurped by one from among the others. For what reason is this theme repeated several times in Scriptured, even adding, 'The first shall be last, and the last shall be first'…and even, 'First the dark (sin), then the light (truth)' [the original 'day' was from sunset through dark to sunlight meaning the day starts in the dark of sin and 'ends' in the light of truth]
What was meant in the verse, 'Here I am, Send me'…?You ignore, it seems, my questions about the 'Princes', the prinicipal Sons of God.
Who are the 'Princes'..'of whom one has fallen'.
Whatever can that mean, and to who might it pertain?Also, Revelations shows the 'Lamb' being brought out 'from among them who are in front of and around the throne of God'. Jesus is not any more prominent than the others except by being depicted as looking 'like' a slaughtered lamb and then the Scroll is guven to him …only after NO ONE ELSE was found worthy to open the Scroll….Fractally, like David was found worthy ONLY to be King of Israel…(in place of Saul, tall, lofty, beautiful to look at, fractally, like…lucifer…, ) after all his brothers were reviewed by Samuel, then God said, 'I have found my David'
Addendum…
Mike, i also answered the question about 'Son of God'. This has been gone through many times and in various ways, but in recent times …The Jews were upset because Jesus, in some unwritten way, claimed to be the Son of God.
Jesus immediately responded, 'What of it…'.Why was Jesus so flippant about it?
He went on to say that there were many others who were called 'Gods' by God Almighty hmself, yet Jesus just claimed to be the 'Son' of God.
He dismissed any significance to thier claim that he was blaspheming and they accepted it.
You, and many others, misunderstand the meaning of 'Son', again, Context, Context, Context. Always see the text and the meaning in Spiritual terms, not earthly fleshly terms of man.
'Son' does not mean literal offspring in Spiritual terms, because Spirit do not 'Procreate', do not produce offsprings of themselves, else show me one place were it says so. God Almighty, and God Almighty alone, Creates them, because the Spirit comes from Him. Human offsprings are procreated from the flesh of the parents, sperm and egg, but it is still God who puts the life spirit into that procreated body.
Spirits do not have bodies so they cannot procreate…they can 'Create' a lifeless body and put their OWN spirit into it, put themself, into it but then they would have left the heavenly realm, and their 'station'.God created the Spirits, and the Spirits are of Him, and therefore they are His Sons.
Adam was created with the Holy Spirit in him, and was he not called 'Son of God'. Mike, who else is called 'Son of God'? Which other of humankind? And why? Please answer thus question, it is crucial to your understanding of 'Son' by the Spirit.
Jesus openly and manyly times called himself, 'Son of Man', why? Same as above, please explain why?Therefore, when Jesus was raised from the dead, he became more than the flippantly dismissed 'Son of God' when his father and God said, paraphrasically, 'You have conquered, you have triumphed, you have proved yourself worthy of the greatest place of honor, a seat on my right hand side. Jesus, you are my son, today I have raised you up to the highest position'
Did not, fractally, Saul raise David to a seat by his side, the King…raising up a servant to a position of honor, even greater than his own son, Jonathan (Don't quote me here. Can someone check this out?)
A King would often honor a great warrior, a great nobleperson, etc., by calling that person, 'My Son'…does not mean literal Son, but 'as a Son', 'Adopted', 'One Raised Up in Honor', 'Begotten', 'One of Prominence'.David,
It's not you i am disputing against.
Nor is there anything you said that i am arguing against.It is just that what you are oosting here is not relevant.
I fully agree that 'we' are Sons of God.
We are Sons of God if we have the Holy Spirit of God within us, as Adam did when he was first created, as Jesus did when he was 'created/formed in the womb of Mary' as man. As are all (but not 'all' now…) the sentient angelic creatures. They are ALL Sons of God.Jesus became the 'prominent' Son of God when he attained the promised covenant after he was raised from the dead, he became 'Begotten of the father', 'raised up'…literally, and positionally, 'above the others, his brethrens'.
Spiritually, these 'brethrens' cannot have been the Disciples, so who were these 'Brethrens'.Use the Fractal Scriptures for the answer (David and his…brethren)
It may seem i'm not tallking straight arguing against Mike in some way regarding this, but you are mistaken.
I am showing Mike the greater truth, the refinement of Scriptures, and truth is often hard to bear, especially for the strongminded who wants to discover it for himself. (Stu, are you reading this?)And Mike set the challenge but now he cries off saying he doesn't care about anything…
Did i not say he would do something like that.
Such a strong challenge set by Mike, yet flakes out…like WJ.
This thread against JustAskin…
Not one of Mike or WJ… No nine hundred and ninety nine pages.I am both happy and disappointed.
Happy that Mike has given up because, i hope, he saw his error, saw what was wrong with his idea, has learnt something of benefit, even if he never openly admits it.
Mike needs to stop pretending he will give quarter and be accepting of truth. Clearly, this is a tactic to disarm his opponent and gain acceptance by onlookers.
Mike has unwisely exposed his personal circumstances in this forum in declaring that he was and maybe still is being downtrdden by his brother.
This outlines his desire to reclaim his lost personal position by attempting to argue the crap out if everyone in this forum. Check the 'Debates', he practically the master of it, he owns it: “Mikeboll64 vs ….” or “…vs Mikeboll64”.
Notice that, significantly, there has not been a “Mikeboll64 vs JustAskin” debate…
This tnread was nearly one such and, but for the contributions from others, would have been very short.
Well done, Mike, Shortest ever debate for you…
That long post above was really good JA. I didnt want to say anything, didnt want to interupt, but it's good.
Shimmer,
I value your input and am guided by your thoughts as I see the Holy Spirit is in you, and such ones I value highly.Never be afraid to express your thoughts if they are positive.
And thank you.
JA……..I have said before that Spirit is not a Body but what is (IN) a Body , good to see you understand that. but some here believe there is a Spirit Body in the sense that there exists such a thing as a Body that is made out of spirit, and Jesus now exists in some Spirit From without a Body of flesh and bone as he said he had. If that were the case why was He even resurected in the first place if He did not need a BODY to Exist in. The only one who cane exist outside and in side of a body is GOD. Who is SPIRIT. And remember Jesus said He spoke about the Father in proverbs , (fictitious Illustrations) BUT A TIME Would COME WHEN HE WOULD SHOW THE FATHER PLAINLY. There is a mystery about GOD and when the seventh Angle begins to sound the mystery of GOD should be finished it says. So There does seem to exist a mystery concerning GOD.
peace and love……………………gene
Hi JA,
I see you attempt to do here what you did DURING THE MIDDLE OF your debate with Keith.
You have claimed YOUR superiority and claimed that I have somehow “accepted the errors of my false thinking”……….while leaving the ONLY question from my last post that I bolded and asked you to answer unanswered. So, here it is for the 3rd or 4th time:
But, just for argument's sake, what if the “ALL” DID only mean invisible “air”, “gasses” and “atomic particles”? Why do you think it is that they came into existence through ONLY Jesus? Why Jesus, and none of the “others”?
In other words JA, why was the universe said to be created THROUGH ONLY ONE PERSON? Where were the “others” when the very heavens they inhabit were being created through ONLY Jesus?
Let's see if you can get through this one simple point………..and then I'll answer any one point you think I've avoided, okay?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Oct. 27 2010,19:56) David,
It's not you i am disputing against.
Nor is there anything you said that i am arguing against.It is just that what you are oosting here is not relevant.
I fully agree that 'we' are Sons of God.
We are Sons of God if we have the Holy Spirit of God within us, as Adam did when he was first created, as Jesus did when he was 'created/formed in the womb of Mary' as man. As are all (but not 'all' now…) the sentient angelic creatures. They are ALL Sons of God.Jesus became the 'prominent' Son of God when he attained the promised covenant after he was raised from the dead, he became 'Begotten of the father', 'raised up'…literally, and positionally, 'above the others, his brethrens'.
Spiritually, these 'brethrens' cannot have been the Disciples, so who were these 'Brethrens'.Use the Fractal Scriptures for the answer (David and his…brethren)
It may seem i'm not tallking straight arguing against Mike in some way regarding this, but you are mistaken.
I am showing Mike the greater truth, the refinement of Scriptures, and truth is often hard to bear, especially for the strongminded who wants to discover it for himself. (Stu, are you reading this?)
Hi JustAskin,Perhaps you weren't aware that JW's are taught that only
baptized members of their organization are HolySpirit filled.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike, Mike, Mike,
I didn't deliberately leave your question unanswered.
In fact, it's not even a question of any significance.
And…I've already answered it. In the same way i've answered all of your questions.
Besides, i was responding to you before i went off to work this morning, UK time. If i missed a response, see the 'additions' in 'Addendum'. Yes, even though i was getting to be late, i still came back to add more.
If i missed anything, it wasn't because i was evading anything…yes, again, Just like with WJ.
The answer, i've given already and can't believe you still asking…
The builder(S) and the owner…
Mike, why are you asking? Is it not obvious.I even added the simile of the Movie Awards.
Mike, who gets the credit for the building of the house?
Mike, who gets the credit for the making and acting in the Movie?
Mike, only the senior or the 'firstborn' Son gets the credit along with the Father, no matter how many others were involved.
Mike, even human society works that way.
Mike, CatWalks…who? The Designer and the senior 'Walker(s)'.
Mike, do you believe that the designer actually cut and sewed those clothes? Do you believe the Walkers did that? Obviously not. So who did…and why aren't they, the ACTUAL WORKERS, why didn't they get the accollade, after all, they did the 'physical' work.Mike, why am I even answering you. This is so childish a question. Examples abound, queueing up to be the senior example.
Mike, the boss and senior officer, perhaps, deputy 'boss', Assistant 'boss', they two (it need not be restricted to two but two is a decent number) are the only ones mentioned in the role of honors, as running the company…And Mike,…it matters not that a different 'deputy boss' was in charge, maybe right up until the end. It is ONLY the one that is there at the end who is accolladed. The original 'fell' in disgrace, caught in crruption and was dismissed. To retain an unsullied company, the acts of the fallen deputy are expunged from the records, he does not exist to be spoken of, as Satan/Lucifer, will be expunged and never brought to mind at the end.
Mike, why is this a foreign concept to you?
What is you 'theory' and does it have an 'end to end' run?
Can you script it with Scripture?Edj,
I am aware of JW's.
I read their Watchtower magazines.
I attended their conventions and visited their Kingdom Hall.
I have also been to 'Seven Day Adventist', Baptist, Pentecostal and mainstream 'trinitarian' churches.But thank you for the information.
But my concentration is on Mike and the question of whether Jesus was always Superior, the thread topic.
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 28 2010,11:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 27 2010,19:56) David,
It's not you i am disputing against.
Nor is there anything you said that i am arguing against.It is just that what you are oosting here is not relevant.
I fully agree that 'we' are Sons of God.
We are Sons of God if we have the Holy Spirit of God within us, as Adam did when he was first created, as Jesus did when he was 'created/formed in the womb of Mary' as man. As are all (but not 'all' now…) the sentient angelic creatures. They are ALL Sons of God.Jesus became the 'prominent' Son of God when he attained the promised covenant after he was raised from the dead, he became 'Begotten of the father', 'raised up'…literally, and positionally, 'above the others, his brethrens'.
Spiritually, these 'brethrens' cannot have been the Disciples, so who were these 'Brethrens'.Use the Fractal Scriptures for the answer (David and his…brethren)
It may seem i'm not tallking straight arguing against Mike in some way regarding this, but you are mistaken.
I am showing Mike the greater truth, the refinement of Scriptures, and truth is often hard to bear, especially for the strongminded who wants to discover it for himself. (Stu, are you reading this?)
Hi JustAskin,Perhaps you weren't aware that JW's are taught that only
baptized members of their organization are HolySpirit filled.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Sorry but this is NOT what JW's believe…they believe that only 144,000 can “technically” be “filled with the holy spirit”. I know because I used to be one.Dk,
Yes, this is as you say. Plus they have surpassed the 144,000 'heavenly members'…another folly prediction.Argghh …off topic…again.
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 28 2010,11:16) Mike, only the senior or the 'firstborn' Son gets the credit along with the Father, no matter how many others were involved.
Hi JA,I want you to notice something. This tiny peice of your post that I cut and pasted is the only part that attempts to answer my point. The rest is nothing but posturing and senseless filler. Maybe you would be to work on time if you only posted what NEEDS to be posted.
Besides, I just ignore the insults and accusations that you feel the need to include in EVERY post anyway. They really do say much more about you than they do about me. Okay, so let me get this straight. Are you saying that Jesus was the “senior firstborn Son” even before the creation? Or are you saying that after he was “appointed” the firstborn Son “status”, God felt no more need to list the “others” through whom the universe was created?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Oct. 28 2010,11:16) To retain an unsullied company, the acts of the fallen deputy are expunged from the records, he does not exist to be spoken of,
Kind of like Saul? Or maybe like Cain? Hmmmm……….something is fractally amiss here.mike
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 28 2010,11:00) Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 27 2010,19:56) David,
It's not you i am disputing against.
Nor is there anything you said that i am arguing against.It is just that what you are oosting here is not relevant.
I fully agree that 'we' are Sons of God.
We are Sons of God if we have the Holy Spirit of God within us, as Adam did when he was first created, as Jesus did when he was 'created/formed in the womb of Mary' as man. As are all (but not 'all' now…) the sentient angelic creatures. They are ALL Sons of God.Jesus became the 'prominent' Son of God when he attained the promised covenant after he was raised from the dead, he became 'Begotten of the father', 'raised up'…literally, and positionally, 'above the others, his brethrens'.
Spiritually, these 'brethrens' cannot have been the Disciples, so who were these 'Brethrens'.Use the Fractal Scriptures for the answer (David and his…brethren)
It may seem i'm not tallking straight arguing against Mike in some way regarding this, but you are mistaken.
I am showing Mike the greater truth, the refinement of Scriptures, and truth is often hard to bear, especially for the strongminded who wants to discover it for himself. (Stu, are you reading this?)
Hi JustAskin,Perhaps you weren't aware that JW's are taught that only
baptized members of their organization are HolySpirit filled.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Perhaps none of us where taught that Ed.To All, and that 'all' includes Mikeboll64!
Mikeboll64 claims that in my last main post to him above, i made insulting and accussative remarks to him, and that is the reason he would not answer my questiins or respond to any other parts of my post but one.
Please can you just point out to me the insults and accusations that you see that i made to Mike.
Please, only the post that Mike refers.
Please do not hold back from posting. This request is by invitation of the one claimed to be the insulter and accuser in that post. It will be to my benefit to have my fault pointed out to me.
Thank you.
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