- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Shimmer in the context of creation, the Son of God is not expressed by God as another person but as His outstretched Arm.
LU,
But that was not the question.You can't change the question after you hear the answer and realise the little killerblow question you thought was going to blast your opponent has rebounded on you.
I keep telling Mikeboll that he needs to tighten up his arguments…have yiu not seen my posts stating that to him?
In addition, he needs to learn how to bring a discussion to a closure.
Mike is too engaged in debate and appears to fear closing a debate or discussion.
Ask a question …get an answer, continue asking for answers…question never ever answered to his satusfaction until someone says, 'Mike, what's your answer'…'ok, we agree with you'…then what will he do???flummoxed…no one ever said that before,..what should i do now, new ground, …help!!!
LU, maybe you should set up a debate, 'LU vs Mikeboll'… Then when he asks you a question…just agree with him….end of debate….two posts, a record.
I told Mike, one page…'Mikeboll vs ja' (He even put my initials in 'lower case'…)..and the debate was over in 'one page'…wasn't a debate really so i was sure it wasn't going to be long…JA,
I think we are all learning how to formulate our questions better because of being here. I learned how to improve my question in my poll that I made. I even had to have my first attempt deleted. I see your point of the title question here but I also see beyond the words to the intent and that is what we ought to do instead of picking people's words apart, it is the whole judge not lest you be judged thing. Couldn't you see the intent beyond your desire to be critical?I have a question for you.
Being critical is quite a strength for you and doesn't need more practice…you are quite good at it and having a critical eye is good for say, an auditor, or a scribe who is copying text but lightenup when it comes to your responses here. Flex some of those weaker communication skills like…well, I'll let you fill the rest in. I know that I need to develop in many areas and this board gives us lots of opportunity to practice humility for one, yes?
The debate that you thought was over in one page wasn't satisfactorily won by Mike, he could have claimed victory but instead he wanted to truly pull the root out.
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 19 2010,05:48)
The most senior manager was voluntarily demoted to demonstrate to the rest of the staff how the job should be carried out.While he was demoted, he experienced all the prejudice, pain, low pay, oil and grease, long hours, bad food, negativity towards management, and no matter how much he tried to tell them how much management actually cared for them and that if they would just do things like he was doing then they too would achieve a raise in pay, a monumental bonus at the end…but they wanted their bonus now, where they would squander it…gamble it away…trawler fishermen gambling with whales and fishes and losing….when the land on shore they have nothing and die…being ''made lower 'for a little while'''. Even if he was less than superior for a little why, does that not answer the thread question… 'Was Jesus ALWAYS Superior' (DIFFERENT THREAD …Ed J)
Hi JustAskin,Can I use these words on another forum?
God bless
Ed JQuote (Ed J @ Nov. 18 2010,15:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 18 2010,13:28) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,16:21) Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,05:30) To all, Check the 'Mike vs ja' debate. Mike asks a quesion but when he gets the answer that 'HE' doesn't like he rephrases it, or simply ignores the response, and continues to claim that he has not been answered.
Hi JustAskin,Yes, you are 100% correct; Mike does do that!
But I don't mind as long as he keeps wording his question differently.
That way you can keep giving him different answers he doesn't like.
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I challenge youEd, show me one time where you answered a question and I immediately asked it again. I'm not talking about asking the same question a month later. And I'm not talking about asking a related question that clarifies EXACTLY what I was really wanting to know the first time.
Show me where you answered, and in my response to your answer, I just asked the same question again.
mike
Hi Mike,The PROOF that I was indeed answering your question,
is evidenced by you repackaging it in different forms!
These are (in essence) the same question, repackaged
over and over, for what can be illustrated by Luke 11:54.(Mike) Laying wait for him(Ed J), and seeking to catch something
out of his(Ed J's) mouth, that they(Mike) might accuse him(Ed J). (Luke 11:54)
But you were unsuccessful, as you proclaimed here…Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,14:44)
Ed, my patience with you is wearing thin.
Did you know that the core reason for ALL ANGER, is
a controlling aspect derived from unfulfilled expectations? (James 1:20 / Col.3:8)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,14:52)
Okay, so the flesh and blood person of Jesus from Nazareth actually consisted of TWO flesh and blood people then, right? Which one of the two was the only begotten Son of God?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2010,16:08)
Then Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, is who “became flesh” and dwelled among us, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2010,14:16)
Then it was Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, who “became flesh” and dwelled among us, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,14:52)
Okay, so the flesh and blood person of Jesus from Nazareth actually consisted of TWO flesh and blood people then, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,11:43)
I had asked: Okay, so the flesh and blood person of Jesus from Nazareth actually consisted of TWO flesh and blood people then, right? Which one of the two was the only begotten Son of God?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,13:09)
Jesus was already a flesh and blood person before the Jordan, right? So if the Holy Spirit/Word BECAME a flesh and blood person in the person of Jesus, wouldn't the human body of Jesus be holding TWO flesh and blood people inside it?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,14:47)
What is your answer to my question, Ed? Is your answer, “NO, Jesus remained one flesh and blood person.” ?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,09:36)
So then Jesus was a flesh being. And the Holy Spirit was also a flesh being within the flesh being of Jesus, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2010,14:16)
Ed, can you really not understand that “word” could be referring to God's Spokesman, who is call “the Word”………….OR simply to words someone has spoken?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hey Ed,That's very good research. Now show how you actually ANSWERED the question.
I notice 8 times I asked you this question ( for the 9th one you posted is a different question altogether 
). I notice on the fifth time, I bolded it, because
you kept playing around and not DIRECTLY answering what I was asking. I notice on the seventh time, I had to emphasize, “Ed, WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER?”.Now, do it again and be fair about this time. Don't post only the times I asked, but post all the times you answered. Show me the time you actually DIRECTLY answered my DIRECT question.
This was a very dishonest and biased post Ed. You should be ashamed of yourself.
mike
Gene:
Quote Mike………That is the problem letting people like you be monators, You try to control Posts
Gene, I have given only two blocks in the many months that I've been a moderator. Both were to KJ, and both were for him quoting me as saying something I didn't say. And both times, I gave him the option of retracting what he said first. And both times, while admitting to me his error on pm, he refused to retract it on the thread.You were witness to the horrible things Martian said to and about me, yet I let him have his say.
I have now, for the first time EVER, asked someone to not turn a thread into yet ANOTHER pre-existent debate. Gene, you can't even logically answer the questions in the threads that ARE about pre-existence. You do nothing but spout the same tired crap over and over. Your answer to every scripture is, “Well, I know that's what the words actually say……….but THIS is what they REALLY mean……”
It gets old. Now I started this thread because JA thinks Jesus was just another one of the many angels in his pre-existence. I think that scripture clearly says he was always superior to the angels. Do you understand? We both KNOW Jesus pre-existed, and are debating about his “position” during his pre-existence. All you do by spouting your “he never pre-existed” crap in this thread is dilute it.
I'm telling you that this is a discussion about the position Jesus had WHEN HE PRE-EXISTED. If you want to deny his pre-existence, there are plenty of threads for that. Go to those threads and spout your nonsense while refusing to refute the many scriptures.
Can you just consider this thread a “safe haven” where I can have a discussion WITHOUT dealing with your non-preexistent diatribes?
I asked NICELY………….THREE TIMES! I wasn't “controlling”, but asking you for a favor.
Would you enjoy discussing a topic about Jesus being raised and have Bod jumping in after every post spouting about how he was never raised from the dead? Or Stu spouting about our “imaginary friends”? Do you get the point here Gene?
Now, the threads of pre-existent scriptures I started were to FOCUS the discussion to one scripture at a time instead of the cluttered up mess in the pre-existent thread. No one forced you to comment in those threads.
And the database was a way for those of us who actually believe scripture over our “wishes” to put something really good together without your regurgitated diatribes distracting us. The clearly stated rules were “no chit chat, but ONLY post scriptures”. This didn't exclude you. You were also welcome to post scriptures that teach of Jesus' pre-existence. But that's all the thread was for when I started it – ONLY SCRIPTURES, NO TALKING. It is an open thread now. Post there if you would like to.
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 19 2010,05:48) And, Mikeboll, being ''made lower 'for a little while'''. Even if he was less than superior for a little why, does that not answer the thread question…'Was Jesus ALWAYS Superior'
JA:Quote And, Mikeboll, being ''made lower 'for a little while'''. Even if he was less than superior for a little why, does that not answer the thread question…'Was Jesus ALWAYS Superior'
First, let me point out that when starting a thread, even if you originally post words with capital letters, they almost always revert to lower case when you post the thread. I didn't intentionally make JA lowercase. When I post to or about you, I always cap JA.Now, to your question above. Was Jesus really lower than the angels even on earth? Were not angels serving him and ministering to him? Did he not have the power and authority to call 10,000 of them down to take his place if he wanted to? So, that is a good question that we can look into if you really want to be that petty about the wording of the thread. Like Kathi said, you've known full well the INTENT of this thread since I started it.
You claim that Jesus was just one of the angels, I claim that the angels were created through him. You claim that Satan was God's “real” firstborn, I claim that Jesus is the firstborn of ALL creation. That is the intent of this thread, and has been since the beginning. But if you want to bail out of the real discussion we're in the middle of by using “lower than the angels”, then go ahead. But remember JA, “to which of the angels did God ever say………”.
Jesus was God's only begotten Son before, during and after he was flesh, and as such, was superior to any angel even while on the earth. Aren't demons fallen angels? Didn't Jesus, even as a man, order them around? Weren't they afraid of him? Didn't they ask his permission to be let go. Didn't they beg him not to punish them before there due time? And when he told them to leave, didn't they obey him?
Paul uses this OT scripture to emphasize that Jesus also took on human form for a while, just like us. He was made as a human, which as a general rule is a species that is a “little lower than the angels”. But Jesus wasn't JUST a man like the rest of us, was he?
About the debate, you keep spouting about how it was over in one page “just like you said”. But you omit the part that it was only “over” because YOU conceded. Why do you leave that part out JA? Why don't you post the WHOLE truth about it?
But the INTENT of the debate was not the meaning of “inanimate”. And while you are overly eager to claim victory and run from this discussion because Paul said “lower than the angels”, I was not willing to claim a victory under false pretenses. It is not ME who I want to win, but the TRUTH.
So, here's where we are in this whole thing.
1. I pointed out Col 1:16
2. You said “principalities” meant “positions” that were created through Jesus, but not the actual beings that held those positions.
3. I showed you Dictionary.com that said in theology, “principalities” referred to angels.
4. I showed you from Blue Letter Bible all the verses in which the KJV uses the word “principalities”. Two of them refer to “holy angels”, and the rest refer to “unholy angels”.
5. I then showed you that the Greek word “arche” actually meant “rulers” in Col 1:16.
6. I showed you many more recent translations that do not use the KJV's Olde English word “principalities”, but the more modern understanding of “rulers”.
7. I then pointed out that it is the same Greek word used to describe Michael the “ARCH-angel”, which means a “ruler-angel or “chief-angel”.And in all that time, you have not tried to answer. You say you HAVE answered, but that I just keep asking the same question. But that's not the truth. You answered that it meant “inanimate” things, and I showed you much evidence that it most certainly does not.
So, here's what this whole discussion is about JA. Were the angels created through Jesus?
Col 1:16 says that ALL INVISIBLE THINGS IN HEAVEN were created through him. Then it goes on to emphasize that it doesn't matter if they were POWERS, AUTHORITIES, RULERS or whatever………..they were ALL created through Jesus.
JA, do you believe this? YES or NO?
8. Then I pointed out that John 1:3 says that NOTHING came into existence without Jesus.
9. Then I pointed out that 1 Cor 8:6 says that the same “ALL THINGS” that came from God came through Jesus. So if angels are some of the “ALL THINGS” that came FROM God, then they are also some of the SAME “ALL THINGS” that came THROUGH Jesus.
Even Shimmer went out of her way to point you to this one. She said, “But JA, what about 1 Cor 8:6?” But you ignored her and me both about it.
JA, I don't want to fight with you anymore. That's not what life and love and God and Jesus are about. I'm done. Call me whatever you want to. Slant the truth in whatever way makes you sound superior to the rest of us. Ignore the questions if you think that is the way to honest truth. I'm done fighting back.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 19 2010,06:25) Isaiah :44:24-26 Thus said Jehovah, thy redeemer, And thy framer from the womb: 'I am Jehovah, doing all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, Spreading out the earth — who is with Me? Making void the tokens of devisers, And diviners it maketh mad, Turning the wise backward, And their knowledge it maketh foolish. Confirming the word of His servant, The counsel of His messengers it perfecteth.
Hi Shimmer,What are you saying here?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 19 2010,09:53) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 18 2010,15:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 18 2010,13:28) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 16 2010,16:21) Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,05:30) To all, Check the 'Mike vs ja' debate. Mike asks a quesion but when he gets the answer that 'HE' doesn't like he rephrases it, or simply ignores the response, and continues to claim that he has not been answered.
Hi JustAskin,Yes, you are 100% correct; Mike does do that!
But I don't mind as long as he keeps wording his question differently.
That way you can keep giving him different answers he doesn't like.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
I challenge youEd, show me one time where you answered a question and I immediately asked it again. I'm not talking about asking the same question a month later. And I'm not talking about asking a related question that clarifies EXACTLY what I was really wanting to know the first time.
Show me where you answered, and in my response to your answer, I just asked the same question again.
mike
Hi Mike,The PROOF that I was indeed answering your question,
is evidenced by you repackaging it in different forms!
These are (in essence) the same question, repackaged
over and over, for what can be illustrated by Luke 11:54.(Mike) Laying wait for him(Ed J), and seeking to catch something
out of his(Ed J's) mouth, that they(Mike) might accuse him(Ed J). (Luke 11:54)
But you were unsuccessful, as you proclaimed here…Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,14:44)
Ed, my patience with you is wearing thin.
Did you know that the core reason for ALL ANGER, is
a controlling aspect derived from unfulfilled expectations? (James 1:20 / Col.3:8)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,14:52)
Okay, so the flesh and blood person of Jesus from Nazareth actually consisted of TWO flesh and blood people then, right? Which one of the two was the only begotten Son of God?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2010,16:08)
Then Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, is who “became flesh” and dwelled among us, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2010,14:16)
Then it was Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, who “became flesh” and dwelled among us, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 25 2010,14:52)
Okay, so the flesh and blood person of Jesus from Nazareth actually consisted of TWO flesh and blood people then, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,11:43)
I had asked: Okay, so the flesh and blood person of Jesus from Nazareth actually consisted of TWO flesh and blood people then, right? Which one of the two was the only begotten Son of God?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,13:09)
Jesus was already a flesh and blood person before the Jordan, right? So if the Holy Spirit/Word BECAME a flesh and blood person in the person of Jesus, wouldn't the human body of Jesus be holding TWO flesh and blood people inside it?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,14:47)
What is your answer to my question, Ed? Is your answer, “NO, Jesus remained one flesh and blood person.” ?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,09:36)
So then Jesus was a flesh being. And the Holy Spirit was also a flesh being within the flesh being of Jesus, right?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2010,14:16)
Ed, can you really not understand that “word” could be referring to God's Spokesman, who is call “the Word”………….OR simply to words someone has spoken?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hey Ed,That's very good research. Now show how you actually ANSWERED the question.
I notice 8 times I asked you this question ( for the 9th one you posted is a different question altogether ). I notice on the fifth time, I bolded it, because you kept playing around and not DIRECTLY answering what I was asking. I notice on the seventh time, I had to emphasize, “Ed, WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER?”.Now, do it again and be fair about this time. Don't post only the times I asked, but post all the times you answered. Show me the time you actually DIRECTLY answered my DIRECT question.
This was a very dishonest and biased post Ed. You should be ashamed of yourself.
mike
Hi Mike,The contention here was not how well that (you felt) I answered you
(based on your feeling that it wasn't sufficiently answered), but that
you were asking the same question more then once. Me, JustAskin
and others have noted you repeat some questions over and over.First, you complained about WJ telling you he already answered you,
leaving you a bit frustrated to be unable to reconcile your differences.JustAskin also felt that once he addressed your question, it was time move on.
I like you, seek strongly to find a way to reconcile differences in views. Therefore,
every time you reworded the question, I was able to reword my answer as well!But as you didn't find the original answer satisfactory,
neither did you find any of the variants acceptable either.First you accused me of not answering your question,
now you accuse me of dishonesty, for not reproducing all
my various answers to the same question worded over and over.The thread is located here…(Click Here)
Forum » BELIEVERS PLACE » Scripture & Biblical Doctrine »
For those who ‘think’ “The Word” is a person …Starting on Page 6.Go back and re-read all my various answers!
I have DONE NOTHING DISHONEST, nor have anything to hide!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 19 2010,11:12) First, let me point out that when starting a thread, even if you originally post words with capital letters,
they almost always revert to lower case when you post the thread. I didn't intentionally make JA lowercase.
When I post to or about you, I always cap JA.
Hi Mike,Caps only remain on the first letter of the title bar
and the first letter of the description.T8 can change both the “Title Bar” and the description
back to “Caps”; He has done it for me twice so far.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike………….If you want to debate JA on was Jesus always superior, and don't want others to commit on it Just start you own debate with him excluding all others then. But you only ask for your support group to engage to boaster your support of the “CRAP” you start.. Was Jesus alway Superior is a open question to all and those of us who do not think he even preexisted as a beings of any kind believe his was NOT EVER SUPERIOR TO US but was an (ORDINARY) human being who was PERFECTED while ON earth as a Human Being by GOD HIMSELF who was (IN) HIM> And as far as saying the same thing over and over Where do you figure you don't do that , Just go back and reread you posts they all say the same things and When confronted with the meaning of certain words that can be taken all kind of way that you use as your proof text you simple ignore then even though they are clearly posted to you. That is the way I as well as other here see it.
peace and love…………………………………………gene
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 20 2010,05:00) Go back and re-read all my various answers!
I have DONE NOTHING DISHONEST, nor have anything to hide!
No Ed,YOU go and bring your supposed “answers” to my question over here so those reading THIS thread can have the WHOLE story. It was YOU who brought my questions, now be honest and show everyone how you actually DIRECTLY answered it but I just kept asking anyway.
It was a dishonest post because is was loaded. It was like only telling YOUR half of the story to a judge. Of course you will make yourself sound “right” if the judge doesn't have the benefit of hearing the “other side of the story”.
You accused me of something here Ed. I didn't accuse you. I asked for proof. My repeated question to you is not proof of anything. Now if you can show where you DID actually answer the question and I kept asking anyway, then you have shown proof of what you accused me of. Until that time, it remains a dishonest post.
And I believe I have shown clearly enough that JA has NOT answered the purple question I have repeatedly asked. Nor did WJ answer any question that I repeatedly asked – or I would not have kept asking.
The problem here is that some of you are experts at dodging questions. Trust me, when the question is answered, I always have a backup waiting. I just don't always get to use my backup question because the first one is “answered” by a diversion instead of a DIRECT answer.
This is why the main rule I wanted enforced in my debate with JA is that we each get to ask ONE question per post and the other MUST answer it.
He just refused to follow the rules he agreed to when entering the debate. What's the big deal anyway Ed? What is so hard about saying, “Mike, I already answered that. Remember? I said…………”?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 20 2010,12:47) Mike………….If you want to debate JA on was Jesus always superior, and don't want others to commit on it Just start you own debate with him excluding all others then.
Hi Gene,Okay, you win. I asked you as a favor and you clearly refuse. People who are debating circumstances when Jesus pre-existed do not need you piping in with “He didn't pre-exist” every other post.
We get it Gene. You don't believe Jesus pre-existed. Do you think that you posting it over and over in a thread that has nothing to do with that topic is necessary?
The topic involves whether Jesus was superior when he did pre-exist Gene. We all have your answer now – “No, because he didn't pre-exist.”
Must you really keep answering over and over?
mike
Mike………..First of all i believe Jesus did preexist (IN THE PLAN AND WILL OF GOD) Just as we all Preexisted (IN THE PLAN AND WILL OF GOD). what i do not believe is Jesus or Us preexisted as Living Beings before we were born as flesh and blood being on earth . Just wanted to clarify that.
peace and love…………………………gene
Is Mike still going on about losing a debate…?
He asked a question. I answered…but it wasn't what he was expecting.
So he flusters another question claiming i didn't answer him…
Perhaps if he had couched his questions in a more realistic way then he might have got anither answer…
No, Mike, i answered your question…you just didn't like the answer…which is what you do all the time and then claim you haven't been answered.
What you want is an answere that agrees with what you want to hear.
Mike, that is not real life…
If you want people to always agree with you, set up your own church like WJ.
Mike, did you do your timeline diagram?
JA:
Quote Is Mike still going on about losing a debate…?
Get your facts straight JA. YOU lost the debate. Remember? You conceded saying, “You are right Mike. You win.”JA:
Quote No, Mike, i answered your question…you just didn't like the answer..
You answered my question based on the fallacy that “principalities” are inanimate “positions” for the angels that were created through Jesus. I showed you that your understanding of the word was wrong.JA, what does the “arch” part of “archangel” mean in your opinion? You see, it's a DIFFERENT question. Are you allowed to answer DIFFFERENT questions?
mike
Mike…never satisfied…must be a verb describing you… Mike the Unsatisfied..Mike the Disbeliever… Mike the blusterer….
Yes yes…even when you win you can't be satisfied…yes. I said you won because i was thinking only one description of the word.
Yet, even as i conceded that Principalities also alluded to a person, you still continue….the debate was then over… One page….a record…
Yes mike…but you still continued…is there ever an end to your debates..
Do you know where to end..
Do you have no boundaries…ahhh, you must be a Spirit Debater… No boundaries… No limits…What this does, Mike, is to show how, if you can't stop or end a debate when the debate is clearly ended…there is a declared winner…and it was I that declared you the winner, mike, it shows how far you will go to maintain a debate whenitis not going your way..
So, this concludes that you are not a debater of sense, just a debater…in other words…you just like to argue…Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 22 2010,05:03) Yet, even as i conceded that Principalities also alluded to a person, you still continue….the debate was then over… One page….a record…
Hi JA,Let me get this straight. I don't remembering you conceding that the word “principalities” DOES refer to persons.
If that's the case, then you agree that the angels were created through Jesus, right?
And if that's the case, why are you being so obstinate about it? Why not say, “Thank you Mike for leading me to the truth”?
JA, do you now REALLY believe that angels are the INVISIBLE RULERS IN HEAVEN who were created through Jesus?
Oh happy day!
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
