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Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,15:05) I am getting to think the more the truth of the Scriptures is revealed the more the members in this forum become deluded… I'm screaming in spiritual agony at certain people here..
Kathi,
Why are you 'telling me off' when the very thing you are 'correcting' me on…is what i have been saying for ages.Terra, why are you telling me off when the very thing you are 'correcting' me on is what i have been saying for ages…
Mike, you are so twisted with deceit you can't even acknowledge truth anymore.
JAgo and look at my profile
this will show what i believe in.Pierre
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,08:05) Mike, you are so twisted with deceit you can't even acknowledge truth anymore.
JA,Listen to yourself. You can't even answer the most simple question that is based EXCLUSIVELY on what the scriptures say. You have been solidly beat down by scripture. I expected an apology!
Instead I get called “deceitful” both here in this thread and the debate you taunted me to have with you? 
I urge all of you to read the last three posts in “mike versus JA”. It tells a big story in very few words.
And once again Shimmer comes to YOUR rescue as if YOU'RE the one who is speaking scripturally and Pierre and myself are “twisting” things.
Come on Shimmer. I know he is your friend, but you know for a fact that JA is arguing against the angels being created through Jesus. And you yourself agree that the scriptures state that they were.
So who are YOU trying to please Shimmer? God or man?
42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved human praise more than praise from God.
Is this you Shimmer? Do you believe what Pierre and I and Irene are saying yet at the same time are afraid to be put out of the JA synagogue? Step on board with those who follow and teach what the scriptures actually say instead of their own man-made doctrines. Bad associations spoil useful habits, right?
peace and love,
mikeJA,
Unfortunately we are not saying the same thing. I believe that the Son of God was the Son of God always with power before He emptied Himself to become the Son of man and then when the Son of God as the God/Man was exalted after the resurrection, the God/Man was declared to be the Son of God with power this time the Son as the God/Man. He became our Brother even our Bridegroom who once was not our Brother/Bridegroom.Hope that clears up the misunderstanding.
Hi Kathi,
This whole thread I started to diffuse JA's misconceptions all boils down to whether or not the angels were created through Jesus or not. JA says “no” and the rest of the world (except the non-preexiststers) says “yes”.
I know you say “yes”. JA's other point is that Jesus wasn't “the only begotten Son of God” until he was “appointed” that “title” when he was raised. I've bumped the “when was Jesus begotten” thread to answer those questions.
What I'm trying to say is, “Please don't turn this thread into a “Jesus is really God” debate. There is no such things as a “God/Man”.
We only want to know whether Jesus was always superior to the angels or not.
peace and love,
mikeST,
I have written many times but these deludeds just want to post what they want to post irrespective of what is actuall being said.
It seems, therefore, that their intention is just to cause contention by their own invention of what's in my presentation.
I clearly state,,,listed out, expanded with Sriptural support, that Jesus was MAN, son of God, in the Flesh, that he was son of God in the 'Angelic Spirit', son of God as a Spirit man after he was raised up…
Three times Son of God, in different Context…yet the deludeds, when shown clear, precise, evidential, scriptural rendering of this, say, no JA you are wrong'…and then go on to show their correction as precisely that which i said?Why….
Because the truth is irrefutable.
Because they don't want to say, 'Yes JA'.
So they say 'No, JA' and begin to muddy the waters.
Yes, Mikeboll, Jesus was Not an Angel when God said, 'You are my son…' the Declaration… No, he was MAN, hence, yes, to which angel?, none…Further..why is the subject (Jesus) of the Declaration being compared to Angels?
If Jesus was Son of God in the manner you speak why would the declaration even be written in the first place…he emptied himself of all his 'deity..divinity'…do you understand what that means…everything, else it would all be pointless…Jesus came, (as Gene can almost take over at this point) as 100% pure sinless MAN, a new 100% ADAM, a Son of God in the flesh, led by the Holy Spirit, walking in the way of God, son of God, yes,…different from the 'Son of God' before he came as Man, for all those in heaven are ALSO Son of God, Angelic Sons of God.
And then he died…dead…
And hewas raised up again…reborn…a new Spirit Man, and God Declares his 'Son','Today i have become your father'…the final Son who will reign forever…the Spirit Man that should have been the 'first Adam' fulfilled in the Second Adam.Please, understand what JustAskin is saying…it is for your betterment.
And Mikeboll….please understand things in Spiritual terms…this isthe true way to understand Scriptures, and God and Jesus, and the testimony and life and the universe and everything…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2010,19:25) Hi Kathi, This whole thread I started to diffuse JA's misconceptions all boils down to whether or not the angels were created through Jesus or not. JA says “no” and the rest of the world (except the non-preexiststers) says “yes”.
I know you say “yes”. JA's other point is that Jesus wasn't “the only begotten Son of God” until he was “appointed” that “title” when he was raised. I've bumped the “when was Jesus begotten” thread to answer those questions.
What I'm trying to say is, “Please don't turn this thread into a “Jesus is really God” debate. There is no such things as a “God/Man”.
We only want to know whether Jesus was always superior to the angels or not.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
Like it or not, Jesus was always superior to the angels because He was the image of the Almighty God, not a 'less than an image' of the Almighty God. So, the Son being the Almighty God as the 'image' and not the 'original' has everything to do with the Son always being superior to the angels.I know you don't see that but it is topical.
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2010,11:40) So, the Son being the Almighty God as the 'image' and not the 'origina'l has everything to do with the Son always being superior to the angels.
Hi Kathi,I'm not sure what you wrote is even English!
I didn't mean to come down hard on you. I'm just saying that t8 did a smart thing by separating the believers section from the non-believers. Otherwise, we couldn't discuss one single thing without having to fend off athiest and Muslim attacks and diversions.That's all I'm trying to do here. Gene has (for the most part) kept the non-preexistent stuff out of here. Is there a way you can support the fact that Jesus has always been superior to the angels that doesn't get you and I and Pierre and Irene back into the “Jesus is God” debate?
Sorry if I sounded “bossy” before – I had just read where I was deceitful………….twice! And I was a little angry for a minute.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,11:29) Yes, Mikeboll, Jesus was Not an Angel when God said, 'You are my son.
Hi JA,I'll take your post to the “When was Jesus begotten” thread. Shimmer and I have just started this discussion again, and I urge you and Kathi and Pierre and Irene and all to join us there.
“It will be for YOUR betterment”!
I really, really, really want to clarify some misunderstandings about Heb 1, 5 and Acts 13. So let's start from the beginning and take it one step at a time on that thread, okay? Somebody's gonna learn something if it kills me.
Who knows, maybe it will be me.All I want from you on this thread or in our debate is a clear answer to this question from our debate:
Now, here is the very simple question JA. Col 1:16 says all invisible rulers in heaven were created through Jesus. Now aside from God Himself who isn't a “creation” and Jesus, who could not logically be said to be created through himself, is there any logical SCRIPTURAL reason for you to insist this doesn't include the angels?
If not “angels”, then who are these invisible powers, rulers and authorities in heaven who were created through Jesus?
Just answer the bolded part JA. Can you do that?
See ya in the begotten thread for the rest.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2010,21:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 15 2010,11:40) So, the Son being the Almighty God as the 'image' and not the 'origina'l has everything to do with the Son always being superior to the angels.
Hi Kathi,I'm not sure what you wrote is even English!
I didn't mean to come down hard on you. I'm just saying that t8 did a smart thing by separating the believers section from the non-believers. Otherwise, we couldn't discuss one single thing without having to fend off athiest and Muslim attacks and diversions.That's all I'm trying to do here. Gene has (for the most part) kept the non-preexistent stuff out of here. Is there a way you can support the fact that Jesus has always been superior to the angels that doesn't get you and I and Pierre and Irene back into the “Jesus is God” debate?
Sorry if I sounded “bossy” before – I had just read where I was deceitful………….twice! And I was a little angry for a minute.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
I changed my original origina'l back to the original english spelling of original… It was my dog again, smile.What you are asking me to do is take the white out of the milk Mike. Sorry but white belongs with the milk. I will hold off posting here until you and your “Jesus was created” posse' have gotten an answer out of JA to your question. Ok?
Hi Kathi,
Why can't you help with Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6 and John 1:3 without bringing the “Jesus is God” thing into play?
You can start with your “image of God” scriptures. No angel was ever said to be the “exact representation” of God Himself, were they?
So many angles to attack from, so little me. I'm asking for your help and not your hinderance.
But it is probably all for nothing anyway. JA can't sensibly answer the one question I've been asking him for over a week now. And so he refuses to even attempt it. And that's too bad, because I have backup questions waiting.
By the way, it wasn't the spelling of “original” that threw me. I can't even understand what the sentence is saying. Bad Fido!
mike
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,05:35) To All, Have I been missing something here.
What does Romans 1:3-4 say…
That Jesus is declared Son of God according to the Spirit of Holiness, by the RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.
Why have we been missing this for all this time….and all this discussion and debate…and there it was all the time….
Mike, what you say about this?
JA………Right on, Jesus was declared a Son of God according to the Spirit of Holiness ,(HOW), By THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.Not ever before that time, Because he simply did not exist except in the foreknowledge plan of GOD. As Peter said, He was (FOREORDAINED) before the foundations of the earth, (BUT) was (MANIFESTED) (brought into existence) in our time. He was not morphed in our time by (MANIFESTED) brought into (existence) in our time.
They make a big deal out of Jesus being (made a Little lower the the angels) But that is (exactly) what it say about (ALL) Men Too.
They continue try to separate Jesus from our Likeness. This very thread is proof of that. They do not realize that is exactly what the Spirit of Antichrist is. It is the Spirit (intellect) that separates Jesus' identity with ours. IMO
Our arguing with Mike is like beating our heads against a brick was, I believe he is so deluded it is impossible to reach him at this time, but who knows nothing is impossible with GOD. I believe it will take GOd to Do that Though.
Peace and love………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 15 2010,14:40) Our arguing with Mike is like beating our heads against a brick was, I believe he is so deluded it is impossible to reach him at this time, but who knows nothing is impossible with GOD. I believe it will take GOd to Do that Though.
Wow Gene,Thanks for your vote that there's still hope for me!
By the way, you're preaching to the choir. JA most assuredly believes Jesus pre-existed.
And this thread is for those of us who do believe it, so once again……..please?
mike
Mike…………….JA may be having second thoughts on that it appears. I could be wrong but i see him gaining enlightment on this, will see.
peace and love……………………………..gene
Well, if JA could be a convert to your religion, then by all means, use my thread to convert him!
But if he says “No”, then will you keep the non-preexistent element off of this thread?
mike
Mike Boll,
It is not as clear as you believe as always can mean from his first point of existence, whenever that might be.
Bump for JA
Now, here is the very simple question JA. Col 1:16 says all invisible rulers in heaven were created through Jesus. Now aside from God Himself who isn't a “creation” and Jesus, who could not logically be said to be created through himself, is there any logical SCRIPTURAL reason for you to insist this doesn't include the angels?
If not “angels”, then who are these invisible powers, rulers and authorities in heaven who were created through Jesus?
Just answer the bolded part JA. Can you do that?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2010,22:26) Hi Kathi, Why can't you help with Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6 and John 1:3 without bringing the “Jesus is God” thing into play?
You can start with your “image of God” scriptures. No angel was ever said to be the “exact representation” of God Himself, were they?
So many angles to attack from, so little me. I'm asking for your help and not your hinderance.
But it is probably all for nothing anyway. JA can't sensibly answer the one question I've been asking him for over a week now. And so he refuses to even attempt it. And that's too bad, because I have backup questions waiting.
By the way, it wasn't the spelling of “original” that threw me. I can't even understand what the sentence is saying. Bad Fido!
mike
Mike,Quote I can't even understand what the sentence is saying. Read with the spirit side of your brain
As far as your conversation with JA is concerned, ummm, only as led my friend.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2010,04:35) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 14 2010,11:53) I want to start up a couple of seperate threads, theres too many different things here. Jesus as an Angel
Jesus begotten when ? (Hang on, thats allready been done)
etc…later I might.
Hi Shimmer and All,I agree with you here Shimmer. This thread has “blossomed” into a lot of thoughts about a lot of different things. And it is hard to get to the bottom of any one thing when there are so many.
JA posts alot like WJ does. He fills his posts with the entire “world according to JA”. But he is unable to answer even the most simple straight forward question that refutes his belief. I've dealt with this from WJ many times. For example:
Jesus is God because:
1. I and the Father are one.
2. Honor the Son just as you honor the Father.
3. Thomas called him “God”.
4. Paul said he “Laid the foundations of the earth”.
5. Many people “worshipped” Jesus.SO THERE, MIKE!
But whenever I try to break all of these “world according to WJ” thoughts down and scripturally refute each and every one of them, he bails or refuses to honestly and directly answer straight forward questions. Like JA, he claims, “I've already answered it” as his answer, when in fact he hasn't done anything but ignore it and hope I will just stop asking.
And when WJ lumps all these unrelated scriptures together in one post, it makes a pretty fair sounding case for Jesus being God. But when you get to the heart of each separate claim he makes, it's easy to figure out that the way he's understanding it is not the lesson the scriptures are actually teaching. Each one of these 5 points above are easily explained in the light of other scriptures, but who has the time and energy to refute them all in every single response to WJ? And even when I have, he ignores the rebuttal and just posts even more out of context scriptures – all at once again.Like the “I and the Father are one”. Jesus also says his hope is for some of us to become “one” with him and the Father. Now WJ knows this doesn't mean we will also be God, but he will ignore this fact, and later post the exact same “I and the Father are one” in the midst of another 10 out of context scriptures. It's like a never ending chase because he will not actually stand and defend any one of his claims, but instead just keeps claiming many at a time in post after post.
This is what JA is doing here. And you have all seen me repeatedly ask ONE SIMPLE QUESTION that is the key to refuting his entire belief that Jesus was “just one of the many angels”. He won't answer the questions that I ask, but instead just keeps loading his posts with slanted scriptures and logic. Anyone can do that. I want the truth of the matter, so I want to take one claim at a time and one scripture at a time and one post at a time. But he knows if that were to happen, his unscriptural “theory” would become exposed for the fallacy that it is.
So Shimmer is right here. And I was also looking for the proper “begotten” thread yesterday to transfer that part of what we're discussing over there.
I'm not aware of a “Does God have a 'body'?” thread, so maybe I'll start one.
That will leave this thread open to get to the bottom of whether or not Jesus was always something more superior to the angels.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,With this type of Post (you explain), you need to separate his
Points into a Post for each and explaining them all separately.This fry's both WJ and SF when you do this, because they
both think their many point long Posts have much merit.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (JustAskin @ Nov. 15 2010,05:30) To all, Check the 'Mike vs ja' debate. Mike asks a quesion but when he gets the answer that 'HE' doesn't like he rephrases it, or simply ignores the response, and continues to claim that he has not been answered.
Hi JustAskin,Yes, you are 100% correct; Mike does do that!
But I don't mind as long as he keeps wording his question differently.
That way you can keep giving him different answers he doesn't like.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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