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Terra,
It does not say that 'all others'…nowhere does it say that.
It is you that just made that up.
The verse says 'Powers', 'Principalities', 'Authorities'. Where does it say, 'Angels'? Please show me your thought pattern.And further, the additional verses state that he 'Conquered the Powers' and that is right, Jesus conquered the Power of Sin and Death, Greed, the powers and authorities 'OF' Kings were in subjection to him…and he 'Became so much better than them' because he conquered.
Terra, what are you arguing against?
Can you answer the other questions I put to Mike?
If Jesus created the Angels why are they called Sons of God?
If Jesus created them, what part did they take in the creation process.
How did Jesus become more superior if he was already the superior.
What position did Jesus gain over that which he left if he was already at God's right hand side before he left….
When he said, 'Glorify me with the Glory I had with you' he could only have returned to that same glory position as he himself said. He was not asking for the higher position that his God did award him, so therefore there was still a higher position that wasn't allocated while Jesus was in Heaven. And, by being put into that higher psition he became Senior to 'Them', so much better than 'Them'…who are 'them'…
I ask this queston all the time and 'NO ONE' answers…why….?
Who are the 'STARS' who Sang together?
Who are the 'Principle Sons of God'
Who are the 'Princes, of whom one has fallen'
Who is the 'Fallen one' of the Princes.
Who are the ones that Jesus is More Superior than..
If Jesus created them you CANNOT compare the Creator with the Created.
Jesus cannot be compared to angels if he created the angels if he created them.
Can you compare the toolmaker with the tool?
Terra, show me where it says, All 'other' things were created by him.
And further, why do you say 'Created BY him' and yet Mike is insistent it is 'created THROUGH him'
See, you both at loggerheads with each other already.
AND, if ALL things in Heaven were created by him, then God is created by him, too, then, eh?
Im havign errors like this JA
Quote Ikonboard CGI Error
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Ikonboard has exited with the following error:Died
This error was reported at: Sources/Post.pm line 1536.
Please note that your 'real' paths have been removed to protect your information.
My posts are also disappearing
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 26 2010,03:53) Terra, show me where it says, All 'other' things were created by him. And further, why do you say 'Created BY him' and yet Mike is insistent it is 'created THROUGH him'
See, you both at loggerheads with each other already.
AND, if ALL things in Heaven were created by him, then God is created by him, too, then, eh?
Its Either you believe Jesus is God, and that he created everything, or the alternative, that he isnt and that he didnt create anything.Good thing i'm a technical diagnostics expert.
Just add a short simple post…like above.
The post is there, just not showng…
Ha ha.. Heard this joke tonight. Some joke program invite nutter questions.
One guy says if we get rid if the moon we would get lighter and be able to fly…
Someone pointed out that sometimes there's only three quarter, half and quarter moon, so why we not quarter lighter, half lighter and three quarter lighter…to which some genius wit piped up, 'You know when you only see part of the moon…the rest is actually still there!!!'That's something for Stu to think about (Hey Stu, the Rabbit than you think magically appears out of the hat, …was always there…).
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 26 2010,16:43) Terra, It does not say that 'all others'…nowhere does it say that.
It is you that just made that up.
The verse says 'Powers', 'Principalities', 'Authorities'. Where does it say, 'Angels'? Please show me your thought pattern.And further, the additional verses state that he 'Conquered the Powers' and that is right, Jesus conquered the Power of Sin and Death, Greed, the powers and authorities 'OF' Kings were in subjection to him…and he 'Became so much better than them' because he conquered.
Terra, what are you arguing against?
Can you answer the other questions I put to Mike?
If Jesus created the Angels why are they called Sons of God?
If Jesus created them, what part did they take in the creation process.
How did Jesus become more superior if he was already the superior.
What position did Jesus gain over that which he left if he was already at God's right hand side before he left….
When he said, 'Glorify me with the Glory I had with you' he could only have returned to that same glory position as he himself said. He was not asking for the higher position that his God did award him, so therefore there was still a higher position that wasn't allocated while Jesus was in Heaven. And, by being put into that higher psition he became Senior to 'Them', so much better than 'Them'…who are 'them'…
I ask this queston all the time and 'NO ONE' answers…why….?
Who are the 'STARS' who Sang together?
Who are the 'Principle Sons of God'
Who are the 'Princes, of whom one has fallen'
Who is the 'Fallen one' of the Princes.
Who are the ones that Jesus is More Superior than..
If Jesus created them you CANNOT compare the Creator with the Created.
Jesus cannot be compared to angels if he created the angels if he created them.
Can you compare the toolmaker with the tool?
JACol 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
1Pe 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.LK 9:47 But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side,
LK 9:48 and said to them, “ Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”LK 14:11 “ For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
MT 20:26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,
MT 20:27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;
MT 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”REV 5:12 saying with a loud voice,
“ Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
REV 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”JN 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
JA;pay ettention also to what Jesus says to the mother of the sons of Zeebedee, how it has to be with them ,just has Jeus did.
all those verses are to saying that Christ was the first and all things were created trough him and for him.including angels
God did not create the angels then Christ,;it says first the Word then trough him all things, all,all,allPierre
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 26 2010,08:18) Oh, by the way, read your 'all things' quote very carefully…
Does any of what it mentions pertain to 'Life Beings'?
Hi JA,Out of many insulting words in many posts, the above is the only words I found that attempted to answer my one question. And my answer to your question is: YES. Like Pierre so aptly pointed out, it says “ALL THINGS INVISIBLE”.
And as John pointed out, “NOT ONE THING came into existence without him”.
But, just for argument's sake, what if it DID only mean invisible “air”, “gasses” and “atomic particles”? Why do you think it is that they came into existence through ONLY Jesus? Why Jesus, and none of the “others”?
So even if we completely ignore or change the meaning of “all things” and “not one thing”, we still end up with Jesus being something more than the “others” even back then, because he is the one through whom God created. He is not “one of the ones” through whom God created, but the ONLY one – according to scripture.
Do you still think the “all things” and the “not one thing” excludes the angels? If so, can you show me a good scriptural reason?
peace and love,
mikeJA
When he said, 'Glorify me with the Glory I had with you' he could only have returned to that same glory position as he himself said. He was not asking for the higher position that his God did award him, so therefore there was still a higher position that wasn't allocated while Jesus was in Heaven. And, by being put into that higher psition he became Senior to 'Them', so much better than 'Them'…who are 'them'…
To be a “spirit” being, is a greater glory than as a human being. The glory Jesus had with the Father before he became a human was, he was a spirit being. Jesus did not “ask” for a reward for what he had done, but the Father rewarded him anyway; he gave him “divinity, and immortality.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself (immortality); so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Georg
Quote Why are humans called, and to be called, 'Sons of God'. And why are Angels also called 'Sons of God'. Why are we told that Solomon built the temple? Why is it called “Solomon's temple”?
I really doubt he physically built the temple.
He simply provided the means to build it. It was his purpose.
'Why are humans called “God's sons”?'
Same reason the temple was called Solomon's temple and said to be built by Solomon. (Because it was for him and by him and it was his purpose and his means that carried it out, although it being accomplished through someone else.)[I had to respond to the post below, just because JA was ironically saying that Mike was ignorant and arrogant.]
Quote Mike, you say that All things came into being through Jesus and so does Scriptures. So I am confused as to what you are twisting in your claim that Jesus created the Angels… One minute he created them, and the next he didn't.
Seems like an attempt to avoid the faux pas you just created.
You have just realised that saying all things, including humans and the angels were created through him, you come across your first cunundrum… Why are humans called, and to be called, 'Sons of God'. And why are Angels also called 'Sons of God'.
Mike, do you really wanna do this… Are you sure you wanna expose your arrogant and ignorance in front of everyone here?
Mike…………> 1 Peter 3:22……> who has gone into the heavens and is on the right hand of GOD; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Notice it DOES NOT SAY (RETURNED) TO THE HEAVENS where he was before, But it say He went into the Heavens. Now if Peter ever thought Jesus had preexisted in heaven he would have said He (RETURNED) to heaven, common sense should tell us that.
peace and love…………………………..gene
Terra,
Quoting Scripture verses alone doesn't hack it with me…nor others.I can read them myself. In fact, i can also interpret their meaning, too.
'All' does not ALWAYS mean 'All'.
You know this from, 'All power and Authority was given to him'. He certainly didn't have power and authority over his God, in the same way that Joseph did not have power and authority over Pharoah, but only power and authority to ACT AS Pharoah.
So, does Jesus have 'ALL'…no.Is Jesus 'Above ALL'? No, because Scriptures says, 'Excepting Him who put ALL power and authority under him'.
The created beings are called 'Sons of God'. Adam was called 'Son of God'
Why 'of God'. Why not ''Son of 'the one who created them' ''? Therefore, 'Sons of the Son of God'And why are they 'Sons of God' just as Jesus is 'Son of God'.
The answer is in the context, which is so often neglected in preference to forced meaning in human ideals, human comparisons.
Compare Spirit with Spirit and Flesh with Flesh.
Wnen did, as you say, Jesus create the Angels. Where does Scriptures say that Jesus created the Angels, the servant and messaging Sons of God?
The Angels are God's Angels.
Is Lucifer as powerful as Jesus? Lucifer is not MORE powerful than Jesus.
Jesus is invested with powers to fight with Lucifer. They both have armies of Angels who fight with them.Where did Lucifer, Satan, get hid awesome powers from. How does he 'contain' those powers which must be immense?
Broaden the picture that you create regarding the Spiritual realm and the Spirits within that realm. Picture the structure, the layers, the …powers, authorities, positions…the Principle Angels, the messaging Angels, the Glorifying Worshipping Angels before the throne of God, the Cherubims, the Seraphims, the trumpetting Angels, the announcers, the warrior Angels, the 'worker' Angels with least power (still immensely greater than mankind)
Ok, back to a simpler question, and the thread title.
Please show how it is claimed that Jesus was ALWAYS Superior.
I believe that it is only your desire to say so that turns your mind to forcing Scrioture to say so.
I believe you have no proof of your claim.
I believe, that although Jesus became the Superior, he was not always so, but EARNED his superiority over the others (Who are the others)
And you cannot claim that he earned superiority over the others unless he was at least EQUAL to the others when he became superior to them.
And, if he was in the superior position before he became man, then what greater superior position was he raised to when he returned.
So, all, did it mean 'All'? would that mean it include God himself…. The text does NOT say 'other'. You added that.
Further more, the verse is describing inanimate items: Powers, Authorities, Thrones…these are not animate objects.
Invisible Powers, Invisible Authorities, Invisible Thrones.
Visible Powers, Visible Authorities, Visible Thrones (not physical but positions of authority, kingships).Non of these things are either 'Human' nor 'Spirit'.
Both you and Mike are trying to make a magic rabbit appear out of the textual hat.
Leave out the word you added, 'other'. Why did you add it? Because it would blast you argument away.Mike is shadow boxing claiming I'm insulting him but really it is vecause he can't answer…he knows he is wrong so instead he doesn't answer claiming he has been unsulted… Well, 'old man' toughen up, you too soft.
You put yourself up as a punchbag and start crying when you get hit…aaah, poor you…Mike, ignore the 'insults', just answer the questions. Or can't you answer… Didn't WJ try this with his adhominem, did you copy him? So sad. Don't you have your own method, copy cat? See, Mike, that's where you go wrong, copying the wrong people, thinking to do as they do…but you don't understand exactly how they do it…poor old man…
Mike, here's a single cryptic cross word for you:
'So How Is Today, are you still in it from the head'(4)Mike and Terra,
Did you answer any of my questions. Or are you running away, hiding behind the only verse you can squeeze behind? In fact, what ARE the two of you doing together behind there???Ok, Mikester, 'insults' aside. Just answer the question.
Funny, no insult, i thought you said you were going to stomp me? But even now, olain simple text is altered to make your case, why the need to alter and add text?
Mike……….All preexistences and Trinitarians add their interpretations to the text by inserting word that are not there and that is forcing the text to comply to their dogmas, and you do need to look to where all this came from in the first place , check it out, there is a string in all this that leads back to the Gnostic's, that string or theme is the basic theme of (SEPARATION OF JESUS) from our (EXACT) IDENTITY. That is what John and Paul were fighting in their Day it is the Same thing going on now in our day. Same problem exists. Think about Mike, come out of those false teachings brother.
peace and love to you and your……………………………..gene
So David,
Solomon built the temple to house the Ark of the Covenant, and make it, metaphorically, the dwelling place of God.Yet it is called ''Solomon's Temple''.
So,…'Jesus' created the Angels and Mankind 'for' God, but yet they are not called, ''Sons of Jesus'', ''Jesus' Sons''.
What's your point?
And by the way, is this the first time you have seen Mike posting desparate text when he cannot back it up? Have you been away?
Mike is everywhere in this forum, so much so he is in danger of becoming a 'Stale Wart'.David,
We all have arrogance and ignorance.
I'm trying to save Mike from 'over exposure' of his, which he inclined to do often, and hiding behind, 'oh, i will believe…if you can show me proof….(not really cos i'll argue till the cows come home cos i like debating.)
In fact, Mike has made himself into the Master deBater.Mike knows what i'm like, he's just crying foul when it is applied to him thinking to use it as a means to escape his errant views.
And another thing, i know when he is right, and is often right.
Know this then: It is only the refinement where he goes wrong…he will adopt the true path later on down the line when no one is watching. But, up front and immediate, he argues anything, even stepping into 'alien' territory, onto 'trinitarian turf' if it helps him escape a false idea in a post.
Quote (david @ Oct. 26 2010,17:55) [I had to respond to the post below, just because JA was ironically saying that Mike was ignorant and arrogant.] 
Thanks David.Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 27 2010,01:31) So David,
Solomon built the temple to house the Ark of the Covenant, and make it, metaphorically, the dwelling place of God.Yet it is called ''Solomon's Temple''.
So,…'Jesus' created the Angels and Mankind 'for' God, but yet they are not called, ''Sons of Jesus'', ''Jesus' Sons''.
What's your point?
And by the way, is this the first time you have seen Mike posting desparate text when he cannot back it up? Have you been away?
Mike is everywhere in this forum, so much so he is in danger of becoming a 'Stale Wart'.
Yes, I've been away.Quote So,…'Jesus' created the Angels and Mankind 'for' God, but yet they are not called, ''Sons of Jesus'', ''Jesus' Sons''. I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.
Solomon didn't build the temple. We are told Solomon built the temple.
Solomon had the temple built. He provided the means to build it. He was in charge.
God, the “Creator” used Jesus to make everything. Just because Jesus was used by God to make all things, doesn't mean Jesus is the Creator. The credit and creatorship still belong to Jehovah, just as Solomon is still credited with the temple, despite the fact that he probably never laid one stone.
Hi Ja, yes, we all make mistakes and have areas of ignorance. It's just this statement that I think you lacked insight into:
Quote You have just realised that saying all things, including humans and the angels were created through him, you come across your first cunundrum… Why are humans called, and to be called, 'Sons of God'. And why are Angels also called 'Sons of God'. They are called Son's of God, because God is the creator, the power behind the creation.
Comparison:
Solomon is called the builder of the temple, (despite giving the work to others) because he was the power behind the building of the temple.
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