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For Shimmer and JA, who both seem a little lost:
JA:
Quote Mike, since when do Angels need 'boundaries' for their Spirit.
1 Cor 15
38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Does Paul say that heavenly spirit beings have “bodies” or not?
JA:
Quote You even say that God…God…has boundaries…wow…Mike…God IS EVERYTHING, everything is IN God…there is NO Outside of God. There is no container to contain God.
So then if Jesus would have worshipped Satan like Satan wanted, it would have been okay, because “God is EVERYTHING”, right? No JA………WRONG. If I worship you as my God, then I am NOT worshipping God Almighty, but something OTHER THAN God Almighty. Now, how do we know where God Almighty ends and JA begins? And how can there be anything other than God Almighty if there is not a point where He ends and others begin?Think about this: On the day of Pentecost, some people in Jerusalem received the Holy Spirit. But the entire city of Jerusalem did NOT receive the Holy Spirit. What was it that stopped the Holy Spirit from encompassing and filling every single person on earth? Don't you agree there had to be a point where the Holy Spirit stopped filling people? That outer “barrier” or “boundary” is what I'm talking about.
According to you JA, the trinitarians are on the right path. Because to worship Jesus is really to worship God Himself, for there is no end to what is God and no beginning to what is Jesus.
Here's another: When Moses approached the burning bush, why did he have to remove his sandals? If God encompasses EVERYTHING, then why would one little piece of land be more “holy” than the rest of the world that Moses was able to walk on with sandals on his feet?
And another: Why was the temple or the ark of the covenant “holy”? Because God visited with His people there. But wait……….God is EVERYWHERE AND EVEYTHING, so what made those places more holy or special? And when God was said to be in the Most Holy, what was so special about it? How could God have been “limited” to being ONLY in the Most Holy? Wouldn't He have been equally OUTSIDE the Most Holy at the same time? And if that is the case, what's the use of the Most Holy……..or the whole tent for that matter? If there wasn't a self-made boundary that enabled God to be IN the Most Holy instead of everywhere for miles and miles, the Most Holy meant nothing.
Why was ONLY Mose's face glowing after meeting with God? Why not the rest of the Israelites who were within a couple of miles from Moses? What “boundary” was there that made God be with ONLY Moses instead of everyone for miles? Why aren't all of our faces glowing all of the time?
JA, you might as well go down to the pond and worship a frog, for God is everywhere and everything.
JA:
Quote Do you imagine that God is literally sitting on a physical Throne in Heaven…how large is his throne then…so that Jesus can sit next to him on it?
We have had this discussion before JA. I completely understand that “throne” is a symbol of power. But for you to say there isn't a physical throne that God sits on is only your opinion. You haven't a clue about it, and neither do I. Don't make claims as if they are fact when you know nothing about it.JA:
Quote You incorrection try to profer 'Procreation' as a Spiritual act. Mike, Spirits cannot procreate. Procreation is a human act, not spiritual. Angels do not procreate, God does not Procreate. One needs a body, flesh and blood, to procreate.
Again, you are claiming as a fact what you have no clue about. Who are you to just “CLAIM” this or that as if you are some expert in the field of the invisible spirit world?Angels clearly “PROCREATED” with humans or there would have never been Nephilim on the earth, right? Your unfounded claim is that these angels made themselves into fully flesh and blood beings to accomplish mating with human women. But you have no scriptural evidence to back this up. Can an angel hold a sword that is physical enough to kill a human, or did the angel that killed 185,000 Assyrians in one night have to “make himself flesh and bone”? Does an angel have to make himself flesh in order to be seen by creatures on earth? Apparently not, because the donkey could see what Balaam could not at first.
For all we know, angels could be able to make their spiritual bodies take on any “texture” and still remain a spirit being. Maybe they could be water, or ice or oil………….or a “flesh like substance” that is capable of having intercourse with human women – all while remaining spirit beings.
Do you KNOW for a fact that they can't JA? If not, then don't claim things with certainty that you are only guessing at like the rest of us.
NOW, please re-read the scriptures above and tell me once again how spiritual beings don't have bodies.
mike
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,17:21) Thanks Terrarica I see that. But Mike, what i'm saying here is what I believed before coming on this forum. I got put off and confused by some things here. But it's less confusing to believe truth as was known.
You must be strong in your faith and your beliefs Shimmer. No one “taught” me about scriptures. I read them all by myself – over and over. I still do and will continue to do so as long as God permits.Chances are, your original understandings of what the scriptures teach are closer to the truth than what you've see posted on this site. Sometimes I think this site is like the island of misfit toys on Rudolph the Rednosed Reindeer!
I can't even understand how people can read the same scriptures as I read and come up with some of the nonsense they post here.
Thank God for Pierre, Irene and t8. Like me, they just take the scriptures as they are written – with no personal agendas or things they “wish” them to say. When people start “wishing” what the scriptures actually said, they start rearranging the scriptures to suit their doctrine, instead of arranging their beliefs around the scriptures.
But if you had always believed that Jesus was created first, and then God created all other things, INCLUDING THE ANGELS, through him – then you believed correctly. Not because I say so, but because that's exactly what the scriptures teach.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2010,17:31) For Shimmer and JA, who both seem a little lost: JA:
Quote Mike, since when do Angels need 'boundaries' for their Spirit.
1 Cor 15
38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Does Paul say that heavenly spirit beings have “bodies” or not?
JA:
Quote You even say that God…God…has boundaries…wow…Mike…God IS EVERYTHING, everything is IN God…there is NO Outside of God. There is no container to contain God.
So then if Jesus would have worshipped Satan like Satan wanted, it would have been okay, because “God is EVERYTHING”, right? No JA………WRONG. If I worship you as my God, then I am NOT worshipping God Almighty, but something OTHER THAN God Almighty. Now, how do we know where God Almighty ends and JA begins? And how can there be anything other than God Almighty if there is not a point where He ends and others begin?Think about this: On the day of Pentecost, some people in Jerusalem received the Holy Spirit. But the entire city of Jerusalem did NOT receive the Holy Spirit. What was it that stopped the Holy Spirit from encompassing and filling every single person on earth? Don't you agree there had to be a point where the Holy Spirit stopped filling people? That outer “barrier” or “boundary” is what I'm talking about.
According to you JA, the trinitarians are on the right path. Because to worship Jesus is really to worship God Himself, for there is no end to what is God and no beginning to what is Jesus.
Here's another: When Moses approached the burning bush, why did he have to remove his sandals? If God encompasses EVERYTHING, then why would one little piece of land be more “holy” than the rest of the world that Moses was able to walk on with sandals on his feet?
And another: Why was the temple or the ark of the covenant “holy”? Because God visited with His people there. But wait……….God is EVERYWHERE AND EVEYTHING, so what made those places more holy or special? And when God was said to be in the Most Holy, what was so special about it? How could God have been “limited” to being ONLY in the Most Holy? Wouldn't He have been equally OUTSIDE the Most Holy at the same time? And if that is the case, what's the use of the Most Holy……..or the whole tent for that matter? If there wasn't a self-made boundary that enabled God to be IN the Most Holy instead of everywhere for miles and miles, the Most Holy meant nothing.
Why was ONLY Mose's face glowing after meeting with God? Why not the rest of the Israelites who were within a couple of miles from Moses? What “boundary” was there that made God be with ONLY Moses instead of everyone for miles? Why aren't all of our faces glowing all of the time?
JA, you might as well go down to the pond and worship a frog, for God is everywhere and everything.
JA:
Quote Do you imagine that God is literally sitting on a physical Throne in Heaven…how large is his throne then…so that Jesus can sit next to him on it?
We have had this discussion before JA. I completely understand that “throne” is a symbol of power. But for you to say there isn't a physical throne that God sits on is only your opinion. You haven't a clue about it, and neither do I. Don't make claims as if they are fact when you know nothing about it.JA:
Quote You incorrection try to profer 'Procreation' as a Spiritual act. Mike, Spirits cannot procreate. Procreation is a human act, not spiritual. Angels do not procreate, God does not Procreate. One needs a body, flesh and blood, to procreate.
Again, you are claiming as a fact what you have no clue about. Who are you to just “CLAIM” this or that as if you are some expert in the field of the invisible spirit world?Angels clearly “PROCREATED” with humans or there would have never been Nephilim on the earth, right? Your unfounded claim is that these angels made themselves into fully flesh and blood beings to accomplish mating with human women. But you have no scriptural evidence to back this up. Can an angel hold a sword that is physical enough to kill a human, or did the angel that killed 185,000 Assyrians in one night have to “make himself flesh and bone”? Does an angel have to make himself flesh in order to be seen by creatures on earth? Apparently not, because the donkey could see what Balaam could not at first.
For all we know, angels could be able to make their spiritual bodies take on any “texture” and still remain a spirit being. Maybe they could be water, or ice or oil………….or a “flesh like substance” that is capable of having intercourse with human women – all while remaining spirit beings.
Do you KNOW for a fact that they can't JA? If not, then don't claim things with certainty that you are only guessing at like the rest of us.
NOW, please re-read the scriptures above and tell me once again how spiritual being don't have bodies.
mike
HI mikei got a little mind twister for you or any volunteer,
wen God was alone so before Christ coming,what was his space???
now that he create Christ (THE WORD)what was the space of God and what was the space of Christ??
and wen as they were creating what space did all have
Pierre
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 12 2010,18:41) JA, I thought you believed Jesus pre-existed in spirit too, Whats the actual debate here, Between you both ?
And Who believes what exactly?
I believe what you believe Shimmer. We both believe that God brought Jesus forth as the “first of His works”. (Proverbs 8:22)Then God created everything else – including all the angels – THROUGH His firstborn Son.
JA wants to ignore the scripture that says all invisible heavenly things were created through Jesus because that scripture messes up his “Fractal Scripture” theory, in which Satan is God's real firstborn Son.
Ja and I also differ on begotten, but for the same reason. If Jesus was God's only begotten Son from his very beginning, that again messes with his theory.
And “firstborn of every creature” – again for the same reason.
Are you getting the picture here? JA MUST make “only begotten” happen at a later time to save his theory. JA MUST come up with a different meaning for “firstborn of every creature” to save his theory. JA MUST say the “all things” in Col 1:16 doesn't include the angels to save his theory.
This is the same with Gene and Martian and Kerwin. Unlike you, they don't think God created Jesus first and then everything else through him. They think Jesus had no existence whatsoever until he was flesh. They “wish” for him to be “exactly like us” because they think that would make it easier for them to accomplish their goals in reaching God. They are willing to ignore the over 40 scriptures that Irene, Pierre, Wm and myself have put together in the “Pre-existent Scripture Database” thread that teach the pre-existence of Jesus.
Shimmer, JA and these others are not molding their understandings around the scriptures. They are trying to make the scriptures fit into their “wish” or “theory”. And if you stick around in this thread, you and I will cover the “begotten” thing thoroughly. All I want to do is make sure you are aware of all the scriptures – then you can decide what you think. And if you follow my debate with JA, you'll get to see how “the World According to JA” does not align with the actual scriptures very often.
mike
Shimmer:
Quote Mike, you should listen to the words of JustAskin, who, although often attacking people and annoying the heck out of them so it seems, in between all of that is truth.
Which exact words, Shimmer? Please repost the truthful words that JA posted and include the scripture(s) that tell you they're the truth. And attacking people is not cute, funny, or Christ-like behavior. As his friend, instead of making excuses for his poor behavior, you should rebuke him.Shimmer:
Quote You see, there are posters who have posts which appeal because they are kind, nice, welcoming, but mike, satan also appears as an angel of light.
Wait a minute………that's what I told YOU when you were supporting Gene's unscriptural posts in the “Pre-existence” thread!Shimmer:
Quote This Satan and Jesus thing is just a theory from what I can see, not proven right or wrong.
How can you say it's not proven wrong when you understand that Christ was created first, and then the angels, including Satan, were created through him? That right there proves it wrong. And that's why he fights against Col 1:16. He would rather believe in his own flawed theory than the actual words of scripture.Shimmer:
Quote But JustAskin does have a nice side, if what is spoken is the truth, and fair enough too, hearing things which arent true gets annoying, especially when others follow it.
Tell me about it. I will NEVER post a claim that scripture doesn't back up. I form my understanding around the scriptures, not the other way around. I would jump on JA's theory whole-heartedly………….if there weren't clear scriptures that prove it wrong. I wouldn't even have a problem if Jesus didn't pre-exist, but scriptures clearly teach that he did. And I would be on board with the trinitarians if scripture didn't clearly and repeatedly teach that Jesus was someone other than and lessor to his God.But it sounds like you are saying that JA's poor excuse for Christian behavior is justified because of having to put up with my lies. Is that what you're implying? I'll wait for the re-post of his truthful words that you said I should adhere to. Because believe me, it's the other way around. Does that give me the justification to start deriding him and calling him names and being just plain rude? That behavior is what I'v been trying to rid myself of since I found God.
Shimmer:
Quote Mike, just so I know what you now believe, do you believe God procreates,
Shimmer, do YOU believe God caused Jesus to exist? This is what “procreate” means, from Dictionary.com:pro·cre·ate /ˈproʊkriˌeɪt/ Show Spelled
[proh-kree-eyt] Show IPA
verb, -at·ed, -at·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to beget or generate (offspring).
2. to produce; bring into being.
–verb (used without object)
3. to beget offspring.
4. to produce; bring into being.Some people who have their own “theories” don't want Jesus to have been literally begotten by God. Those people are the trinitarians, because they don't want their “God#2” to have any kind of beginning at all. And JA, who thinks Jesus was no different than the angels, so he must insist that “only begotten” is just a “title” Jesus received after he was raised from the dead. But you already know that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God while he was on the earth – so you're half way there. We'll soon find out if the scriptures will take you the rest of the way or not.
Anyway, “procreate” is just a big word that those people like to throw around to say, “God didn't have sex with a woman, so therefore Jesus couldn't have been 'procreated' by Him.” But now you know what “procreate” really means. So did God have to have sex with a goddess in order to “procreate”, or “generate offspring”?
Shimmer:
Quote do you believe God has a body of some type,
Absolutely. Paul says that spirit beings have spirit bodies. God is a spirit being, right? Besides, there has to be something that separates what IS God from what IS NOT God, right? Is it a “body” as we understand them? Probably not. But there must be some kind of “barrier”, or else everything, including me, is God.Are YOU God, Shimmer? If not, then what separates God from you? And why would Jesus pray to his Father IN HEAVEN if God was everywhere all the time? Why did he always look up to heaven before breaking the bread and what not? Why not look down?
Shimmer:
Quote Do you believe Jesus is 100% God…like begat like ?
I believe that Jesus is 100% spirit being……like begat like. But just because the child of the President of the U.S.A. is 100% human does not mean that child has the title of President or any of the power that his father has. That child does not know as much as his father, nor is he as strong. Jesus is the literally begotten Son of God, so he is a spirit being just like his Father. But he is not God Almighty, nor will he ever be. He is the Son of God, not God.I hope this helped. I welcome your comments about my understandings – even if you disagree.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2010,11:07) HI mike i got a little mind twister for you or any volunteer,
wen God was alone so before Christ coming,what was his space???
now that he create Christ (THE WORD)what was the space of God and what was the space of Christ??
and wen as they were creating what space did all have
Hi Pierre,Did you ever see the movie “Men in Black”?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2010,18:58) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2010,11:07) HI mike i got a little mind twister for you or any volunteer,
wen God was alone so before Christ coming,what was his space???
now that he create Christ (THE WORD)what was the space of God and what was the space of Christ??
and wen as they were creating what space did all have
Hi Pierre,Did you ever see the movie “Men in Black”?
mike
mikeyes,stupid is it,??
Pierre
Hi Mike.
You said
Quote But it sounds like you are saying that JA's poor excuse for Christian behavior is justified because of having to put up with my lies. Is that what you're implying? I'll wait for the re-post of his truthful words that you said I should adhere to. Because believe me, it's the other way around. No. That wasnt what I was meaning. I dont think I have ever said that about you have I ? I have said others are speaking things that dont seem true. But……you have followed some of them…..which is why I said …what do you now believe ?
Quote Shimmer: Quote Mike, just so I know what you now believe, do you believe God procreates,
Shimmer, do YOU believe God caused Jesus to exist? This is what “procreate” means, from Dictionary.com:pro·cre·ate /ˈproʊkriˌeɪt/ Show Spelled
[proh-kree-eyt] Show IPA
verb, -at·ed, -at·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to beget or generate (offspring).
2. to produce; bring into being.
–verb (used without object)
3. to beget offspring.
4. to produce; bring into being.Mike, you have been led into this by two or three other posters…isnt that what happened ? Scripture isnt the dictionary, I wouldnt use the dictionary as a reliable source as to the meaning of something scriptual if i were you. Always find the meaning in scripture itself. Its what I learnt. WHere else in scripture is the word ? Do a keyword search, if you are determined to get to the real truth. Put it all together. Anothers opinions, early church fathers opinions, dictionary opinions… No.
Scripture doesnt actually say anything about God procreating Jesus….before the world was created. If it does, where ?
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2010,12:30) mike yes,stupid is it,??
Pierre
I loved it actually. But my point is that we assume that the being of God must take up immense amounts of space. Why couldn't it be like the little galaxy on the cat's collar in “Men in Black”?So to answer your question about what was included in “God's space” in the beginning…………I don't know. But I don't think it HAD TO BE some huge amount of space…….although it could have been. Who knows?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 13 2010,13:22) Scripture doesnt actually say anything about God procreating Jesus….before the world was created. If it does, where ?
Scripture doesn't mention “procreate” at all Shimmer. Scripture does say that God “brought forth” Jesus as the first of his works. That means God “procreated” Jesus, because He “generated offspring”.Scripture does say that Jesus is God's only begotten Son. So therefore God “procreated” Jesus, because the word means “to beget offspring”.
Scripture does say that Jesus is God's “firstborn”. Therefore, if Jesus was “born”, he was “procreated”.
Did God “beget” Jesus? Yes. Is Jesus God's “offspring”? Yes. Is Jesus God's “firstborn”?
Enough said?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2010,12:48) You must be strong in your faith and your beliefs Shimmer. No one “taught” me about scriptures. I read them all by myself – over and over. I still do and will continue to do so as long as God permits.
I think I should be re reading scripture.Do you read beginning to end, or just random books ?
Quote Thank God for Pierre, Irene and t8. Like me, they just take the scriptures as they are written – with no personal agendas or things they “wish” them to say. When people start “wishing” what the scriptures actually said, they start rearranging the scriptures to suit their doctrine, instead of arranging their beliefs around the scriptures. Yeah, but I BET that even they have some things wrong. But as you said, they have no personal agendas. Yeah thats true. And these others who try to make scripture fit what THEY want it to say, will never see anything else. I tried that, with Ed, And Bod, Believe me.
Quote But if you had always believed that Jesus was created first, and then God created all other things, INCLUDING THE ANGELS, through him – then you believed correctly. Not because I say so, but because that's exactly what the scriptures teach. Im still trying to hear what JA is saying…im still listening.
Shimmer:
Quote Do you read beginning to end, or just random books ?
Beginning to end.Shimmer:
Quote Yeah, but I BET that even they have some things wrong. But as you said, they have no personal agendas. Yeah thats true.
Time will tell. But you got my point. Shimmer:
Quote And these others who try to make scripture fit what THEY want it to say, will never see anything else. I tried that, with Ed, And Bod, Believe me.
To name just a few. It can't work if you start with a man-made idea first. Because just about anybody can fit scripture around just about any doctrine if they want to. But it takes a lot of twisting, ignoring and non-sensical reasoning to do it.Like I said, it wouldn't make one difference to me whether or not Jesus pre-existed. But the scriptures say he did, and I must base my understanding around them. And it wouldn't make any difference to me or the way I worship God if the angels weren't created through Jesus. But scriptures say they were, so I must base my understanding around them.
Shimmer:
Quote Im still trying to hear what JA is saying…im still listening.
Yeah, you're apparently new to his theory. So hear him out. Compare what he says to what scripture says and make your decision. I, on the other hand, have been through this with him already many times. I hope he and I are able to iron some things out in our debate.Are you ready to get into “begotten” yet? Or should we come to a better understanding of each other on these other things first?
mike
shimmer! I want to tell you that in order to really learn something about what is true and what is error. When my Husband starts a study, He always first prays and ask God for His Wisdom. Because of Georg I have learned a lot. I don't listen to man. I go back Scriptures only. I don't search the internet for early fore Fathers. I only did once for Kathi….If you depend on man, you will always be confused, cause man have so many different ideas, and understanding of the truths. Best wishes and may God be with you always, Irene
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,19:08) shimmer! I want to tell you that in order to really learn something about what is true and what is error. When my Husband starts a study, He always first prays and ask God for His Wisdom. Because of Georg I have learned a lot. I don't listen to man. I go back Scriptures only. I don't search the internet for early fore Fathers. I only did once for Kathi….If you depend on man, you will always be confused, cause man have so many different ideas, and understanding of the truths. Best wishes and may God be with you always, Irene
I completly agree with you Irene. Thats just what I was saying. And it's good you can learn with your husband too. God bless you both.Shimmer,
Mike has no Spiritual side. That's why he thinks in the fleshly way. If he thinks God ca be put in a container then even that, if anything, that he speaksas truth, is of no value. For his 60% truth is totally overturned by his 40% fallacy.Mike can't reconcile scriptures with fleshly thinking.
He thinks 'begotten' means God 'procreated' Jesus, God from God, a half Trinity.
Ask Mike, 'Who are the Sons of God'. He will not answer for he fears to answer seeing that his remit is to say 'God has only One Son, Jesus'.
Yet, Scriptures clearly states that all who walk in the way of God, is to be called, 'a Son of God'.
The Angels who convened with God, were also called, 'Sons of God'.
The Angels who forsook their place and came into created bodies in the days of Noah, were called, 'Sons of God', Lucifer, was a 'Son of God' before he fell in sin.
Adam, the first man, was 'Son of God'…until he fell in sin…
Jesus was born, pure, sinless, therefore he was 'Son of God', then he died and was raised, reborn, as a Spirit, man in Spirit, the final end that was meant for Adam, God's intent from the beginning…what Jesus achieved, was what Adam should have been. Jesus, fulfilling the Word of God. The true Spirit Man, the true 'Son of God'. The true Son of God is one of Man in the Spirit, the true bridge between God in Holy Spirit, and Mankind in holy flesh form,The most righteous Angelic Son of God is sent as man to take the place of the first man, and for what reason, and for what reward..
The greatest prize, the glory seat next to his God.Shimmer, you are absolutely right about the three times 'Son of God':
1) Yes, Mike, stress, Mike, be a pest Mike, and the rest, Mike.
Jesus came into being at some point in time … So he was ceeated … Therefore he was a 'Son of God' like All the other Angels who are said to be a 'Son of God', Angelic Sons of God.2) Jesus emptied himself of this divine status and became 'lower than the Angels' as a man (therefore he was not Superior but 'lower' and subject to the rule of Satan, else how could Satan offer Jesus the earthly kingdom if Jesus was in a Superior position…the superior person cannot be tempted, or would be foolish to be tempted, by something lesser than that which he already posseses)
However, since man with the Spirit of God, who walks in the way of God, is called 'Son of God', then Jesus, like Adam, is a Son of God. In fact, so much so is he 'like' the first Man, Adam, he is called, the SECOND ADAM…meaning he is the one and ONLY SINLESS Man, by creation from the Holy Spirit.
Could he then be said to be 'the Only [Fleshly] Son of God'?3) To which of the Angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have become your Father'… Well, none…
But he said this to Jesus. Ok, examine this…what others are mentioned in Scriptures other than God, Angels and Man? None…
Jesus was MAN….he emptied himself of his Divine Angelic Form and became MAN….And he still is MAN, even now, but an exhalted MAN in Spirit, as was meant for the FIRST ADAM, the first MAN, Jesus fulfilled that which was purposed for the first man, Adam.
Therefore, To none of the Angels, but to Him, the Second MAN, the one who successfully completed that which God purposed, to that 'Man', Jesus as Man, raised from the dead, not Angel, to him did God say, You are my Son, today I have become your father', and, 'I will be unto him a father, and he will be my Son', this is what is known as 'the Adoption', 'Begotten', 'Raised up'…all qualified by 'in the Spirit'.So, in summary:
1) Jesus, Divine Son of God in Angelic form;
2) Jesus, Holy Spirited Son of God in Human flesh form, Man;
3) Jesus, Begotten Son of God, Man in Spirit form.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 13 2010,15:53) Are you ready to get into “begotten” yet? Or should we come to a better understanding of each other on these other things first?
Mike, ok, but im just taking an interest in what JA is saying at the moment. He has my attention, sorry, im still listening to you.JA………….Jesus was never a angel, he was a human being and became a so of GOD at the Jordan river by recieving the Holy Spirit into him, at that point GOD the FATHER was (IN) HIM> He is and was absolutely no different then we are. Except he is the (FIRST) from man Kind to achieve the Goal God has for all man kind.
As Far as the angle thing they are Not (Born) being they are Created beings,and can Not be Morphed into a womens body, and GOD Creates their Spirits(intellects) that is (IN) them and sends them out to administer to the future and present sons of GOD, they are minsters of GOD. They do have bodies that are self generative bodies and can not die, we also will attain to that type of bodies also some day. Remember Jesus said that. Mat 22:30 …..> “For in the resurrection they neither marry or are given in marriage but are as the angels of GOD in heaven”.
peace and love………………………..gene
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 13 2010,20:10) Shimmer,
Mike has no Spiritual side. That's why he thinks in the fleshly way. If he thinks God ca be put in a container then even that, if anything, that he speaksas truth, is of no value. For his 60% truth is totally overturned by his 40% fallacy.Mike can't reconcile scriptures with fleshly thinking.
He thinks 'begotten' means God 'procreated' Jesus, God from God, a half Trinity.
Ask Mike, 'Who are the Sons of God'. He will not answer for he fears to answer seeing that his remit is to say 'God has only One Son, Jesus'.
Yet, Scriptures clearly states that all who walk in the way of God, is to be called, 'a Son of God'.
The Angels who convened with God, were also called, 'Sons of God'.
The Angels who forsook their place and came into created bodies in the days of Noah, were called, 'Sons of God', Lucifer, was a 'Son of God' before he fell in sin.
Adam, the first man, was 'Son of God'…until he fell in sin…
Jesus was born, pure, sinless, therefore he was 'Son of God', then he died and was raised, reborn, as a Spirit, man in Spirit, the final end that was meant for Adam, God's intent from the beginning…what Jesus achieved, was what Adam should have been. Jesus, fulfilling the Word of God. The true Spirit Man, the true 'Son of God'. The true Son of God is one of Man in the Spirit, the true bridge between God in Holy Spirit, and Mankind in holy flesh form,The most righteous Angelic Son of God is sent as man to take the place of the first man, and for what reason, and for what reward..
The greatest prize, the glory seat next to his God.Shimmer, you are absolutely right about the three times 'Son of God':
1) Yes, Mike, stress, Mike, be a pest Mike, and the rest, Mike.
Jesus came into being at some point in time … So he was ceeated … Therefore he was a 'Son of God' like All the other Angels who are said to be a 'Son of God', Angelic Sons of God.2) Jesus emptied himself of this divine status and became 'lower than the Angels' as a man (therefore he was not Superior but 'lower' and subject to the rule of Satan, else how could Satan offer Jesus the earthly kingdom if Jesus was in a Superior position…the superior person cannot be tempted, or would be foolish to be tempted, by something lesser than that which he already posseses)
However, since man with the Spirit of God, who walks in the way of God, is called 'Son of God', then Jesus, like Adam, is a Son of God. In fact, so much so is he 'like' the first Man, Adam, he is called, the SECOND ADAM…meaning he is the one and ONLY SINLESS Man, by creation from the Holy Spirit.
Could he then be said to be 'the Only [Fleshly] Son of God'?3) To which of the Angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have become your Father'… Well, none…
But he said this to Jesus. Ok, examine this…what others are mentioned in Scriptures other than God, Angels and Man? None…
Jesus was MAN….he emptied himself of his Divine Angelic Form and became MAN….And he still is MAN, even now, but an exhalted MAN in Spirit, as was meant for the FIRST ADAM, the first MAN, Jesus fulfilled that which was purposed for the first man, Adam.
Therefore, To none of the Angels, but to Him, the Second MAN, the one who successfully completed that which God purposed, to that 'Man', Jesus as Man, raised from the dead, not Angel, to him did God say, You are my Son, today I have become your father', and, 'I will be unto him a father, and he will be my Son', this is what is known as 'the Adoption', 'Begotten', 'Raised up'…all qualified by 'in the Spirit'.So, in summary:
1) Jesus, Divine Son of God in Angelic form;
2) Jesus, Holy Spirited Son of God in Human flesh form, Man;
3) Jesus, Begotten Son of God, Man in Spirit form.
JustAskin! What is the matte with you, now you are getting personal…If Mike was not Spiritual, He could not understand all of those Scriptures….You are dead wrong….So you believe Jesus was an Angel? I don't think so….He is the literal Son of God, bought forth from His Father. The Angels were not created that way. In fact God through Jesus created all. John 1 and Col. 1 tells us soJhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
I just don't like it when some get personal, it i so uncalled for here….Irene
Quote If he thinks God can be put in a container The closest you can come to putting an infinite “God in a container” has already been done… Jesus
John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.Well I guess it was a very big box!
My opinion – Wm
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