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JA………..I see you describing yourself again. So what percent are you working at 50 or less IMO> Shimmer is quite capable with GOD'S Spirit to discern the truth and it is obvious to me She knows more then either of you two do. Your lacking in discernment, and so you and Mike go about making your own description of the truth which neither are right, Just two people blowing in the wind. Satan is also an accuser as you both seem to be good at> By the way where did i “SAY” I understood more about GOD then Mike of JA or anyone else and his alter EGO or anyone else for that matter? Please show me that quote or just admit your lying, that will suffice.
Shimmer………..Pray about it and God will Guide you, take everything here with a grain of salt, there is not unity of the spirit here or all would agree, Each thinks He is right. “There is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is sin and death”. Your doing it right Just go back to basics and go from there, and you will be way ahead of this bunch here. There is a ring to the truth that those who have the (spirit) Intellect of the Truth pick up on , while others are totally oblivious to it. Problem is everyone thinks they have the Spirit of Truth from GOD (IN) them. Trust in God and lean not on your own understanding, because our understandings are limited and we speak in part and prophesy in part, we look as through an obscure glass , but in that day it will all be very clear to us all. No one now has it all by no means just parts only. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Hi JA,
Remember this?
Quote So JA, one more chance for you here. It is a SIMPLE Yes or No question, so a simple Yes or No will suffice. There is no need to add anything else as an “explanation” for this particular question, for it REALLY does only require a Yes or a No. Ready? 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Do you think these “principalities and powers and rulers” mentioned in Eph 6:12 are inanimate objects?
Yes or No JA.
Will you answer the question JA?
peace and love,
mikeHi Shimmer,
You said:
Quote Mike, JustAskin is right these are all that is mentioned in scripture, God…Angels…Man..
Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”What are these four creatures, Shimmer? Are they angels?
Revelation 5:11 NIV
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.In this verse, these four creatures are encircled by angels, yet they are not themselves called angels. In fact, it seems that John distinguishes them from the angels that encircle them.
But is Jesus ever called an angel in Rev? NO. He is a Lamb and the rider of the white horse who is called Faithful and True. He is the Lord of lords and King of kings………but never mentioned as an angel, and contrary to what JA claims, he is never even said to be “among the angels”.
Anyway, JA is NOT right on this, unless you can find a scripture where the four living creatures are angels. I find many where they are contrasted from the angels.
Shimmer:
Quote Is JA saying Jesus was an Angel ?…if so then whos to say JA is wrong ?
Angel means “messenger”. Jesus was most definitely a messenger of God, so I guess you could say he was an angel in that respect. But let me ask you this Shimmer. Do you believe that the angels were created through Jesus like the scriptures teach? If you're thinking “No”, then answer the question above that I keep asking of JA. These living things that Paul speaks of in Eph 6:12 are the same exact living things that he speaks of in Col 1:16. And in Col 1:16, Paul VERY CLEARLY says they were created through Jesus.And consider this also. Paul says we will judge the angels. Do you think we will judge the one who judges us?
Paul also says Jesus commands the angels. He does not say that Jesus commands “the OTHER angels”.
So is Jesus a messenger of God? Yes. Is he an angel in the sense that you both are asserting? No.
Next up…………..begotten.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (shimmer @ Nov. 08 2010,20:28) And Mike, fractal scriptures, my mother has writen and published a few books and in one, half the book is her own observation on how scripture is fractal, probably most of it..I dont know I havent read all of it…. I suppose I should.
Ask your mother how many events in scripture were NOT fractal, but one of a kind occurances.mike
Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 08 2010,21:01) And also, someone mentioned begotten, (YLT)..
Psalm 2:7…”I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, 'My Son Thou art, I to-day have brought thee forth“
Acts 13:33…”.God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm (above) it hath been written, My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee
Brought thee forth (Psalms) = begotten (Acts) = raised up (Acts)…three words used for the same thing, do you see that ?
To see the full story you need to read all of Acts 13.
Shimmer:Quote When was Jesus begotten ? Jesus was begotten when scripture says he was begotten…the day He was risen from the dead.
There is no scripture that says that Shimmer. There are scriptures that people with agendas FORCE to say that. For instance, WJ FORCES these scriptures to say that because he doesn't want his “God #2” to have been literally begotten -so he has to. JA FORCES them to say that because he doesn't want Jesus to be any different from the “other angels” in the beginning – because that would mess up his “Fractal Scripture=Satan is God's REAL Firstborn” invention.I really want you to get this, so I will ask a question after each segment and I hope you will answer. That way I will know which way to move forward.
You use to read a lot from the early church fathers. This is from the Constinopolitan Creed from 381 A.D.:
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons)
1. Shimmer, do you know of any early church fathers that think Jesus was begotten when he was raised?NASB Psalm 2:7
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.Now JA will be eager to point out that the Greek word for “begotten” is also sometimes used in a metaphorical sense. For example, Paul said he had “begotten” Onesimus in prison. What JA will NOT point out to you is that this Psalm was written in the Hebrew language hundreds of years before the Greeks were using “begotten” metaphorically in the NT. The Hebrew word is “yalad”, and it ALWAYS refers to child birth. The only time it is used metaphorically is when Manessah and Ephraim are said to be “born upon the knees” of Jacob – which was a Hebrew saying that meant Jacob was adopting his grandchildren as his own children. But without the “upon the knees” part, it simply refers to being “brought forth in child birth”.
God inspired a Hebrew to write “begotten”. This Hebrew psalmist, and any other Hebrews who read or sang this Psalm would not have taken “begotten” to mean anything other than God LITERALLY brougth forth an offspring.
2. Shimmer, do you understand that “yalad” referred ONLY to the literal begetting of an offspring? Or do you disagree?
Okay, so now the Hebrews knew that God had a begotten Son, but they most likely had no clue what that really meant. They knew Jehovah. And they had no idea who this “begotten Son” who was mentioned in the Psalm really was. They had clues, like Gen 1:26 and Micah 5:2 and Proverbs 8:22, but God hadn't revealed enough info about His only begotten Son at that point for them to fully understand what that Psalm was saying.
Fast forward to NT times. A few disciples are just barely starting to understand that Jesus IS this only begotten Son that was spoken of in that Psalm all those years ago. But the vast majority of the population still have no clue about who this Jesus of Nazareth really was, although Jesus clearly told Nicodemus.
NASB John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”The wording here is critical Shimmer. God GAVE His only begotten Son We know that God GAVE Jesus as a ransom sacrifice for our sins, for many scriptures say so:
Romans 8:32 NIV
32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?3. Shimmer, if Jesus didn't become the “only begotten Son of God” until after he was raised from the dead, then in what sense did God GIVE His only begotten Son for us?
NASB John 3:17
“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.4. Shimmer, isn't DYING as a sacrifice the thing God's only begotten Son did to SAVE THE WORLD?
NASB John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.This verse just goes farther to confirm that Jesus already WAS God's only begotten Son way before he died and was raised.
NASB John 3:19
“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.First, Jesus tells Nicodemus that he is God's only begotten Son. Then he tells Nicodemus that he is the Light that has come into the world. We know from John 1:1-10 that Jesus is the Light that came into the world. But Jesus tells Nicodemus that not only is he the Light, but also God's only begotten Son.
5. Shimmer, is there any reason to think that Jesus actually WAS the Light at the time he spoke to Nicodemus, but he WASN'T God's only begotten Son?
6. Could God's only begotten Son have died to save this world if he wasn't His only begotten Son WHEN he died?
There is much more I wish to show you from scriptures on this matter, including the times when Paul quotes Psalm 2:7. But I want to hear your reaction to what I've posted so far.
Will you honestly answer the 6 questions I've asked before I go on?
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,14:07) Hi Shimmer, You said:
Quote Mike, JustAskin is right these are all that is mentioned in scripture, God…Angels…Man..
Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”What are these four creatures, Shimmer? Are they angels?
Revelation 5:11 NIV
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.In this verse, these four creatures are encircled by angels, yet they are not themselves called angels. In fact, it seems that John distinguishes them from the angels that encircle them.
But is Jesus ever called an angel in Rev? NO. He is a Lamb and the rider of the white horse who is called Faithful and True. He is the Lord of lords and King of kings………but never mentioned as an angel, and contrary to what JA claims, he is never even said to be “among the angels”.
Anyway, JA is NOT right on this, unless you can find a scripture where the four living creatures are angels. I find many where they are contrasted from the angels.
Isaiah 6:2
“Above him stood the seraphim. Each one had six wings. With two he covered his face. With two he covered his feet. With two he flew.” One called to another, and said, “Holy, holy, holy, is Yahweh of Armies! The whole earth is full of his glory!”See the similarities ? What you see in Revelations is the same thing as in Isaiah. Both have six wings, both sing the same. Theses are Seraphims.
Ezekiel 10 describes similar creatues, four of them, , with eyes all around, but having four wings….they are then identified as Cherubim (read Ezekiel 10)
Serapim…Cherubim
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 09 2010,12:10) Shimmer………..Pray about it and God will Guide you, take everything here with a grain of salt, there is not unity of the spirit here or all would agree, Each thinks He is right. “There is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is sin and death”. Your doing it right Just go back to basics and go from there, and you will be way ahead of this bunch here. There is a ring to the truth that those who have the (spirit) Intellect of the Truth pick up on , while others are totally oblivious to it. Problem is everyone thinks they have the Spirit of Truth from GOD (IN) them. Trust in God and lean not on your own understanding, because our understandings are limited and we speak in part and prophesy in part, we look as through an obscure glass , but in that day it will all be very clear to us all. No one now has it all by no means just parts only. IMO Peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene
Thankyou Gene. I hear what you say.Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 09 2010,10:23) Shimmer,
Those of mankind who attain the right to become sons of God, will be also perfected and raised up as Jesus was.Jesus is BOTH Man and Spirit. Perfect Man and Spirit.
To call Man 'Angel' is to debase the Spirit of God in Man. No Shimmer, they will NOT be like Angels, they will be BETTER than Angels.
See how this works: How did Jesus appear in the room where the Disciples were even though the door was locked?
How did Jesus rise up into the cloud and disappear in front of the watching men?Shimmer, to materialise a flesh and blood body is 'nothing' to one of the Spirit. Even low stationed Angels could create flesh and blood bodies.
In the time of Noah, before the flood, Angels could do that and did. But, that does not make those bodies Human. Only when a Spirit enters that body does it become a Soul, a living being in the Flesh.
So, those Angels placed their own spirit, themselves, in those bodies they created and lay down with human women. Their offsprings were mighty men, the Nephilim, because of the power of the angelic spirit in them.
After that, God banned all Angels from doing that again without his consent.
So, Jesus, raised up as a perfect Man, lifted up as Spirit, to a position above the Angels as Spirit with authority to materialise a body as he pleases. Thus, Jesus says, 'You will see me come in like fashion to that which you see me leave'.
Jesus 'dematerialised' his human body and 'disappeared' from view as a Spirit.
And as Spirit, there is no limit to where one may appear. Spirits are not subject to physical boundaries, wall, fire, water, height, depth, pressure, heat, cold, acid, distance, the minute, the mammoth, nor time past.
Jesus will appear in the new paradise earth as well as in heaven. He will serve God and Man, and be served by man in full righteousness.Shimmer, Gene is right in what he says concerning the risen Christ. His problem is with Jesus in his 'preExistent' Angelic form.
Shimmer, Gene say you understand more about God and Jesus than Mike and JA. Shimmer, how does that make you feel?
Shimmer, be careful when people pay you unnecessary complements, good as it might feel…'test the spirit', always.The best lies are 95% truth.
And thanks JA, I hear what you say as well.Mike, Serapim and Cherubim are Angels.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,13:33) 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Do you think these “principalities and powers and rulers” mentioned in Eph 6:12 are inanimate objects?
According to Wikipedia, (yeah I know dont trust wikipedia but I still use it sometimes)…but these principalities and powers and rulers are all part of the Angelic Hierarchy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy
First Sphere
Angels of the First Sphere work as heavenly guardians of God's throne.
Seraphim
Seraphim (singular “Seraph”), mentioned in Isaiah 6:1-7, serve as the caretakers of God's throne and continuously shout praises: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts. All the earth is filled with His Glory.” The name Seraphim means “the burning ones.”
The Seraphim have six wings; two covering their faces, two covering their bodies (“feet”), and two with which they fly.
Two of which are named Seraphiel and Metatron, according to some books. Seraphiel is said to have the head of an eagle. It is said that such a bright light emanates from them that nothing, not even other angelic beings, can look upon them. It is also said that there are four of them surrounding God's throne, where they burn eternally from love and zeal for God.
Cherubim
They have four faces: one of each a man, an ox, a lion, and an eagle. The ox-face is considered the “true face”, as later on in Ezekiel the ox's face is called a cherub's face (Chapter 10). They have four conjoined wings covered with eyes, and they have ox's feet.
Cherubim are considered the elect beings for the purpose of protection. Cherubim guard the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:24) and the throne of God (Ezekiel 28:14-16).
The Cherubim are mentioned in Genesis 3:24; Exodus 25:17-22; 2 Chronicles 3:7-14; Ezekiel 10:12–14, 28:14-16; 1 Kings 6:23–28; and Revelation 4:6-8.
Thrones or Ophanim
The Thrones (Gr. thronos) or Elders, also known as the Erelim or Ophanim, are a class of celestial beings mentioned by Paul of Tarsus in Colossians 1:16 (New Testament). They are living symbols of God's justice and authority, and have as one of their symbols the throne. These high celestial beings appear to be mentioned again in Revelation 11:16.
The Ophanim (Heb. ofanim: Wheels, also known as Thrones, from the vision of Daniel 7:9) are unusual looking even compared to the other celestial beings; They appear as a beryl-coloured wheel-within-a-wheel, their rims covered with hundreds of eyes.
They are closely connected with the Cherubim: “When they moved, the others moved; when they stopped, the others stopped; and when they rose from the earth, the wheels rose along with them; for the spirit of the living creatures [Cherubim] was in the wheels.” Ezekiel 10:17 NRSV.
=====================
Second Sphere
Angels of the Second Sphere work as heavenly governors.
Dominions
The Dominions are also translated from the Greek term “kyriotites” as Lordships. They are presented as the hierarchy of celestial beings Lordships in the De Coelesti Hierarchia.
The Dominions (lat. dominatio, pl. dominationes), also known as the Hashmallim, hold the task of regulating the duties of lower angels. It is only with extreme rarity that the angelic lords make themselves physically known to humans. They are also the angels who preside over nations. The Dominions are believed to look like divinely beautiful humans with a pair of feathered wings, much like the common representation of Angels, but they may be distinguished from other groups by wielding orbs of light fastened to the heads of their sceptres or on the pommel of their swords.
Virtues
The Virtues or Strongholds lie beyond the Ophanim (Thrones/Wheels). Their primary duty is to supervise the movements of the heavenly bodies in order to ensure that the cosmos remains in order.
The term appears to be linked to the attribute “Might”, from the Greek root “δύναμις” in Ephesians 1:21, which is also translated as “Virtue” (probably due to the powerful nature of these high celestial beings; see quotation below), a somewhat different connotation of strength/force than just moral virtue. They are presented as the celestial Choir “Virtues”, in the Summa Theologica. Traditional theological conceptions of the Virtues might appear to describe the same Order called the Thrones (Gr. thronos), (in which case the Ophanim may not be the same thing as “Thrones”).
From Dionysius the Areopagite:
“The name of the holy Virtues signifies a certain powerful and unshakable virility welling forth into all their Godlike energies; not being weak and feeble for any reception of the divine Illuminations granted to it; mounting upwards in fullness of power to an assimilation with God; never falling away from the Divine Life through its own weakness, but ascending unwaveringly to the superessential Virtue which is the Source of virtue: fashioning itself, as far as it may, in virtue; perfectly turned towards the Source of virtue, and flowing forth providentially to those below it, abundantly filling them with virtue.”
Powers or Authorities
Paul used the term powers in Colossians 1:16 and Ephesians 1:21 but he may have used it to refer to the powers of nations, societies or individuals, instead of referring to angels.
The Powers are also translated, from the Greek term “exousies”, as Authorities (see Greek root in Eph 3:10).
These celestial beings appear to collaborate, in power and authority (as implied in their etymology source), with the Principalities (Rulers).
Paul used the term rule and authority in Ephesians 1:21, and rulers and authorities in Ephesians 3:10. He may have been referring to the rulers and authorities of humanity, instead of referring to angels.
The Powers (lat. potestas (f), pl. potestates) are the bearers of conscience and the keepers of history. They are also the warrior angels created to be completely loyal to God. Some believe that no Power has ever fallen from grace, but another theory states that Satan was the Chief of the Powers before he Fell (see also Ephesians 6:12). Their duty is to oversee the distribution of power among humankind, hence their name.
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Third Sphere
Angels who function as heavenly messengers and soldiers.
Principalities or Rulers
The Principalities are also translated, from the Greek term “arche”, as Princedoms and also Rulers (see Greek root in Eph 3:10).
These celestial beings appear to collaborate, in power and authority (as implied in their etymology source), with the Powers (Authorities).
Paul used the term rule and authority in Ephesians 1:21, and rulers and authorities in Ephesians 3:10. He may have been referring to the rulers and authorities of men or societies, instead of referring to angels.
The Principalities (lat. principatus, pl. principatūs) are shown wearing a crown and carrying a sceptre. Their duty also is said to be to carry out the orders given to them by the Dominions and bequeath blessings to the material world. T
heir task is to oversee groups of people. They are the educators and guardians of the realm of earth. Like beings related to the world of the germinal ideas, they are said to inspire living things to many things such as art or science.Archangels
The word archangel comes from the Greek αρχάγγελος (archangělǒs), meaning chief angel, a Translation of the Hebrew רב־מלאך (rav-mal'ákh) It derives from the Greek archō, meaning to be first in rank or power; and aggělǒs which means messenger. This suggests that they are the highest ranking angels. The word is only used twice in the New Testament: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Jude 1:9. Only Michael and Gabriel are mentioned by name in the New Testament.
Michael is the only angel the Bible named expressly as “the” archangel. In Daniel he is referred to as “one of the chief princes”. The word “prince” here is the ancient Hebrew word sar, which means: “a head person (of any rank or class), a chief, a general etc.”
In most Christian traditions Gabriel is also considered an archangel, but there is no direct literal support for this assumption.
The name of the archangel Raphael appears only in the Book of Tobit (Tobias). Tobit is considered Deuterocanonical by Roman Catholics (Both Eastern, and Western Rites) and Eastern Orthodox Christians. The Book of Tobit is also read by Anglicans and Lutherans, but not by Reformed Christians or Baptists. Raphael said to Tobias that he was “one of the seven who stand before the Lord”, and it is generally believed that Michael and Gabriel are two of the other six.
A fourth Archangel is Uriel whose name literally means “Fire of God” or “Light of God.” Uriel's name is the only one not mentioned in the Lutheran Bible, but plays, however, a prominent role in an apocryphon read by Anglican and Russian Orthodox Christians: The second Book of Esdras (fourth Books of Esdras in the Latin Vulgate). In the book he unveils seven prophecies to the prophet Ezra, after whom the book is named. He also plays a role in the apocryphal Book of Enoch, which is considered canonical only by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Another possible interpretation of the seven archangels, is that the seven are the seven spirits of God that stand before the throne described in the Book of Enoch, and in the Book of Revelation.
They (The Seven Archangels) are said to be the guardian angels of nations and countries, and are concerned with the issues and events surrounding these, including politics, military matters, commerce and trade: e.g. Archangel Michael is traditionally seen as the protector of Israel and of the Ecclesia (Gr. root ekklesia from the New Testament passages), theologically equated as the Church, the forerunner of the spiritual New Israel.
It is possible to make a distinction between archangel (with a lower-case a) and Archangel (with an uppercase A). The former can denote the second-lowest choir (arch-angels in the sense of being just above the lowest Choir of angels that is called only “angels”) but the latter may denote the highest of all the angels (i.e., Arch-angels in the sense of being above all angels, of any Choir. The Seven highest Seraphim, Michael being the highest of all, once Satan fell).
Angels
The Angels, malakhim (Greek angělǒs)(messengers or angels), are the lowest order of the angels, and the most recognized. They are the ones most concerned with the affairs of living things. Within the category of the angels, there are many different kinds, with different functions. The angels are sent as messengers to mankind.
Mike,
You are struggling…and, like an insect caught in a spider's web, the more you struggle, the more you entangle yourself.
Stop your struggle, you don't have the strength of truth in the right mind to escape.
You need external help…and we are here to aid you. But 'test the spirits of help'.Give me a sentence using 'Principalities'…my meaning of 'Inanimate' means 'things', as opposed to 'persons'.
Angels are 'persons', as God is a person.You agree that Jesus is a 'Messenger of God'…and what is the word for 'Messenger'…'Angel'…
You ask about 'We will judge Angels', Mike…what is going on in your head?
The 'We'…argghh, how many times, who will learn, who can understand…'We' are the 'Disciple, Apostles, Saints, Elders, the 144,000', those that overcome and are raised up in the first resurrection…No one should count themselves un those numbers…that is incredibly presumptious, and ungodly…much like 'Lucifer' thought of himself when sin entered him.
No Mike, the 'We' are the ones sitting in judgement with Christ, judging the world, those of mankind in the second resurrection and of Satan and his wicked Angels.Mikeboll, why are you failing to understand basic written words…
The tears in your eyes are clouding your thoughts, making you see things that are not there and not seeing the things that are.
Blink, Mike, blink, wipe your tears away and see clearly. Wash yourself in the water that is the Holy Spirit and be truly baptised, not the river water from John, but the Holy Spirit water from Christ.
And…your response to Shimmer….everything from the book of John. What did I ask you to do: Read Jihn again and note that he is speaking 'past', after Jesus is risen, thus he alludes to the risen Christ, as the 'Begotten Son', as of, the 'Man who is in Heaven'…
Mike, be alert if you must because 'the world needs lerts'
…but better that you don't make yourself a lert, eh!JA
you do not answer me why???
you say;And…your response to Shimmer….everything from the book of John. What did I ask you to do: Read Jihn again and note that he is speaking 'past', after Jesus is risen, thus he alludes to the risen Christ, as the 'Begotten Son', as of, the 'Man who is in Heaven'…
Mike, be alert if you must because 'the world needs lerts'
…but better that you don't make yourself a lert, eh!
——————————————-John;talks in past after Christ is resurrected;you need glasses see “Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.?Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.”so John 1.3 is lying??
and Christ was in beginning ,that also is not true,??this is not counting all the other scriptures,
and 'the man in heaven “is understood of being Christ ,but does not make it that men live in heaven ,since the same apostle tells you that flesh can not inherit the spirit realm,it needs to be receiving a spiritual body.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 09 2010,15:44) 1. Shimmer, do you know of any early church fathers that think Jesus was begotten when he was raised? Mike forget Early Church Fathers. There is no proof that any of those writings werent changed or forged to fit in with the RCC's doctrines. Theyre as unreliable as Wikipedia. Trust scripture, because it has been protected by God and sent throughout the world.
Quote NASB Psalm 2:7
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.And what does scripture alone say ? It says this..
Acts 13:13-41
World English BibleBrothers, children of the stock of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, the word of this salvation is sent out to you. For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they didn't know him, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. Though they found no cause for death, they still asked Pilate to have him killed. When they had fulfilled all things that were written about him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead, and he was seen for many days by those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses to the people. We bring you good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled the same to us, their children, in that he raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second psalm, 'You are my Son. Today I have become your father.' “Concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he has spoken thus: 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.' Therefore he says also in another psalm, 'You will not allow your Holy One to see decay.' For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid with his fathers, and saw decay. But he whom God raised up saw no decay. Be it known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man is proclaimed to you remission of sins, and by him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come on you which is spoken in the prophets:
'Behold, you scoffers, and wonder, and perish; for I work a work in your days, a work which you will in no way believe, if one declares it to you.'”Quote 2. Shimmer, do you understand that “yalad” referred ONLY to the literal begetting of an offspring? Or do you disagree? That would be when Jesus was concieved and born, not of an earthly Father but of the Holy Spirit,
Quote 3. Shimmer, if Jesus didn't become the “only begotten Son of God” until after he was raised from the dead, then in what sense did God GIVE His only begotten Son for us? 'Firstborn into the world concieved of the holy Spirit, and then firstborn from the dead.
Quote 4. Shimmer, isn't DYING as a sacrifice the thing God's only begotten Son did to SAVE THE WORLD? It was. But then Jesus was risen as well, from the dead. Jesus told them they would weep and mourn but that then their sorrow would turn into joy. Could you imagine, really loving someone with all of your heart, as the disciples etc would have, and they are dead, but then they are risen from the dead. In the flesh too.
Quote 5. Shimmer, is there any reason to think that Jesus actually WAS the Light at the time he spoke to Nicodemus, but he WASN'T God's only begotten Son? Mike, as I said Jesus was Gods only begotten son, born into the world. The first Adam was of the earth, the second Adam (Jesus) was from Heaven.
Quote 6. Could God's only begotten Son have died to save this world if he wasn't His only begotten Son WHEN he died? I agree Jesus was Gods 'only begotten son' born into the world through the Holy Spirit, without an earthly Father.
Quote There is much more I wish to show you from scriptures on this matter, including the times when Paul quotes Psalm 2:7. But I want to hear your reaction to what I've posted so far. Will you honestly answer the 6 questions I've asked before I go on?
Ok, just did.
Shimmer ……….> You the student have now become the teacher it appears, Good Job Sis, let see how Mike and JA stumble all over themselves trying to get around this.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Terra,
As much as I call you brother, i think you are mistaking what i say and what you write to me.
I don't think you are thinking deeply enough about what you are saying but simply reading with a set mind.Shimmer and I have shown you a clear Scripture verse that details everything but you and Mike refuse to even read it. Now why would you do that if you weren't afraid the revelation that it is showing you.
It means that you need to change your thinking and that makes you fearful. Terra, brother, don't be fearful…be greatful, greatful that the truth has been revealed to you…and, Terra,…don't refuse the Spirit of Truth. Examine yourself, examine the reason you refuse the revelation so far.
What does John do in his writing? John writes after the event…
“The only begotten Son of God, the man who is in Heaven, Jesus Christ, was sent by God to save the world”Terra, how does that read to you? Was 'Christ' a man when God sent him to save the world? No, he was Angel when God sent him and he emptied himself and became man.
Then, was he 'Son of God' when God sent him? No, he became Son of God when he was raised up after gaining the glory of triumphing over sin and death and putting on the Spirit….as others of MANKIND in LIKE MANNER, Jesus Christ as their preeminent leader, will also be reborn in the Spirit and become Sons of God.Terra, Christ is their lead…perfected Man raised to glory, became preeminent Son of God, Begotten, as also others will be.
If Jesus was already 'begotten' then what did he gain for his Sacrifice?Terra, i really believe you have no idea what the term 'Son of God' means, neither you nor Mikeboll, and thatis why you cannot understand your error.
You think of 'Son' as in earthly, fleshly 'Son'.
Terra, in Spiritual terms, and God is Spirit, it means 'one completely beholding to the ways of God…walking in the ways of God'
But there are different types of 'Sons of God'.
The Angels are all 'Sons of God', of whon 'Jesus' was the most righteous.
Those born or created in the flesh by the Holy Spirit, are also 'Sons of God'…in the flesh…so, Adam first….first Son of God in the flesh.
Then Jesus, the second Adam, Son of God in the Flesh….And finally, 'Son of God' as 'perfected Man' and Spirit, of whom only Jesus is the first to have attained, hence he is the 'Only [so far] Son of God…perfected man in Spirit' of which 144,000 more will follow in the first resrrection.
Terra, what was God's original plan for Mankind???
Did not Jesus fulfill the plan of God for man, for man to be perfected? Adam failed the test at the first hurdle…Terra, a good designer builds in safeguards into his system..Jesus was that safeguard and executed the safety mechanism perfectly.Mikeboll is collapsing under his own discoveries and the revelations shown here..Terra, please don't be a backstepper.
He tries to imply that Seraphims are not Angels…pick up a dictionary….
He's fallen over more times than he cares to admit…
Principalities, check Romans 8:38…what does it say…'..Neither Death, nor life, nor ANGELS, nor PRINCIPALITIES, nor Powers…'Terra, be careful what you believe, and what you keep believing after being shown the truth.
JA……….All your flapping you jaws and Not ONE Scripture that Say JESUS WAS or IS an ANGEL, But Jesus said He was SON OF MAN, AND EVEN SAID WHEN THE SON OF MAN (RETURNS) WILL HE FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH. Now what part of that you don't get, Is it going to be a Angel that return or a SON OF MAN? , go figure that out and come back and tell us your assumptions based on your own contrivances.
peace and love……………………………….gene
Shimmer …………I am not worried about you learning any thing, your doing it the right way, don't believe no one here (inducing me) unless you run it by the filter system given you by GOD, if it fits OK if Not reject it , rather from (me) or anyone Here. Remember we were told, “Brethern you have no need of a teacher, the spirit (ITSELF) will teach you ALL THINGS”, and again “No you not, you shall (ALL) be taught by GOD”.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..gene
Thanks Gene.
Sorry JA and Mike, this was supposed to be a debate between you both, it was interesting, is why iv said so much.
There is ONLY one God, “Before me No God was formed nor will there be after ” said YHWH, in the Scriptures.
Jesus said He (Jesus) is the beginning and the end. God has no beginning or end. Jesus must have been created by God. God creates.
Whatever the creation was before the world began of the (to be) Jesus, it would have to be some type of an 'Angel' as all created spirit beings are some type of Angel. Maybe a unique Angel being or maybe one just like the others, it doesnt say. But whatever, The spirit of Jesus was born into the world…killed but then risen up and gained something higher.
Either this is true or Jesus was just a man who gained sonship…or Jesus was God in the flesh..Or scripture lies, and there are two Gods, or three formed.
The Angel idea sounds more stronger to me. And its not unique its what Adventists etc also believe, though thewy try to say WHO of the Angels Jesus was, I wouldnt go that far.
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