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From JA in the Pre-existent thread:
Mikeboll64,
How can you compare one 'one like God' to 'one created by the one like God'
How can you say that one thing is earned superiority over another when you say the superior one created the 'inferior' one.
How could the 'inferior' one ever be called 'Mighty God' in the presence of him?
No, only if they were equal to start with, could he become superior to them, become the 'hero' among them, 'be better' than them.
And if he was their creator, why is he standing among them before the throne of God. He would be standing apart from them.And…Scriptures is not written for the 'English speaking world' alone. That is incredibly crass of you.
Where you say that Jesus created 'everything…' it is not speaking of the sentient creatures, the Angels, the animal, Mankind? Again, you mind is slipping…
To whom is the Animal Sacrifice made, to God or to Jesus? Where is the lifewhih is the blood, which is the spirit, to return to? Is it not God Almighty? Why not Jesus?Mike, in whose image is Mankind made? Jesus or God Almighty?
Are you becoming a trinitarian now? I've seen you sail close to that wind many times in your desparation to prove something, you err and stray into enemy territory.Mike, are we called, or to be called, Son's of Jesus? Are the Angels called Son's of Jesus? Do they have the Spirit of Jesus?
No.
We are to be 'Sons of God', they are 'Sons of God', they have the Spirit of God.So, if it was Jesus who created them…then what?
But if it was God who created them…what then?
Mike, you not thinking right…you have the wrong image in your thought.
Mike, map it out. Draw it out…write it down from end to end and then use Scriptures to validate eah step. You will come across anomalies, unresolvable anomalies. Mike, don't step over them, face the truth when you meet them and say to yourself, 'Ah, hmmm, yeah, ok, hmm…ok…' don't use 'frog dna' or 'charcoal' to fill in the missing links, that way leads to the 'dark side'. Look what happened to the dynasaurs in 'Jurassic Park', and 'Superman' and 'Darth Vader'.
We would have to start calling you, 'MikeVader, the SuperJurassic Dynasaur man' who messed up simple sctripture verses in a single failed leap of faith in wetNanny, over 65 millions years ago.Mikeboll64, JustAskin is not trying to lead you astray. JustAskin is showing you that you put to much faith in your debating, in finite fininicking with words beyond a need. Tweaselling, that gets you nowhere, except back where you started, if seldom ends there for you know not where the end is.
Has any of your debates ended…no. Why not?
Because, as easy as you try to prove that this word means this or that word means that, another uses your same 'proofs' to disprove you. What's the point?
Yes, you learnt something, but what value was it. You 'proved' it to yourself, yes, Thomas….and happier…are those who did not need to stress at the learning if it but believed from the start.Seriously, map out your belief, then match the cartesian coordinate points against the database of correct orientations and you will see where your points don't match up…don't force them…and yes, i do work on maps, too! and no, i'm not googling for the analogical text information.
Mike………So what is you answer to JA alter EGO POST,? I am waiting with anticipation , I think i already know what it will be though.
peace and love…………………….gene
JA:
Quote No, only if they were equal to start with, could he become superior to them, become the 'hero' among them, 'be better' than them.
Ah, but it is your misunderstanding that Jesus “became superior” to the angels. The scripture actually says,Heb 1:4 NIV
4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.While this scripture indicates Jesus became MORE superior to the angels, there is nothing to imply he wasn't already “SOMEWHAT” superior to them before he came in the flesh.
JA:
Quote And if he was their creator, why is he standing among them before the throne of God. He would be standing apart from them.
Again, this is a misunderstanding on your part. The first time John lays eyes on “the Lamb” in Rev, he is standing in the midst of the Throne of God. He is never said to have been “among all the others” in the first place. We know from scripture that Jesus was raised BACK to the right hand of God, where he had glory before the creation of the world. There is only one who can have the “right-hand position”, and apparently Jesus had that position both before and after he was raised. And as the only one in that position, he was already separated from “the others” before he appeared in John's vision to open the scroll.JA:
Quote Where you say that Jesus created 'everything…' it is not speaking of the sentient creatures, the Angels, the animal, Mankind? Again, you mind is slipping…
First, I never said Jesus “created” anything at all. We have but ONE Creator, who created all things THROUGH Jesus.
Second, put your claim against this scripture:Col 1:15-16 NWT
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.Does this, or does it not DIRECTLY say the invisible things in heaven were created “BY MEANS OF” Jesus? But it is MY mind that is slipping?
JA:
Quote Mike, in whose image is Mankind made? Jesus or God Almighty?
Both. Jesus was made in the image of his God first, then God said to him, “Let US make man in OUR image”. But only God is given the credit for creating man………or anything else for that matter.JA:
Quote So, if it was Jesus who created them…then what?
But if it was God who created them…what then?
Mike, you not thinking right…you have the wrong image in your thought.
No JA. It is YOU who is ignoring certain scriptures. I repeat: I have NEVER claimed that Jesus created anything. But scripture clearly says many times and in many places that God created everything THROUGH him.John 1:3 NIV
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.It doesn't say all things were made “through Jesus and the others” JA, but ONLY through Jesus.
Hebrews 1:2 NIV
2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Who did God make the universe through? Not “the others”, but ONLY through His Son, Jesus.
JA:
Quote Mike, map it out. Draw it out…write it down from end to end and then use Scriptures to validate eah step. You will come across anomalies, unresolvable anomalies. Mike, don't step over them, face the truth when you meet them and say to yourself, 'Ah, hmmm, yeah, ok, hmm…ok…' don't use 'frog dna' or 'charcoal' to fill in the missing links, that way leads to the 'dark side'.
That's very good advice JA. Now apply it to yourself.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 25 2010,06:44) Mike………So what is you answer to JA alter EGO POST,? I am waiting with anticipation , I think i already know what it will be though. peace and love…………………….gene
Hi Gene,I didn't even bother with the insults and the arrogant, condescending parts. They have no place here, and maybe JA is about to learn that the higher on the pedestal you place yourself, the farther you have to fall.
peace and love,
mikeMike, on the point of 'mapping'. Have i not said this before. If i say it to you it is because i did it my myself.
Your sloppy response doesn't alter the advice.
What is wrong with taking advice. Just say, 'ok, i 'll try it'. There is nothing wrong about it AND it is GOOD advice, AND you do it in private, no one is asking you to expose your 'thought map' in the forum.
Mike,
Thats what you supposed to do.But instead of doing so you started the insults.
So, you answer the post 'old man'
Ha ha, Mike, i just read your post. My my, bring it on….it's about time you raised a challenge against me.
And by the way… Oh, you'll see.
Mike, you say that All things came into being through Jesus and so does Scriptures.
So I am confused as to what you are twisting in your claim that Jesus created the Angels… One minute he created them, and the next he didn't.
Seems like an attempt to avoid the faux pas you just created.
You have just realised that saying all things, including humans and the angels were created through him, you come across your first cunundrum… Why are humans called, and to be called, 'Sons of God'. And why are Angels also called 'Sons of God'.
Mike, do you really wanna do this… Are you sure you wanna expose your arrogant and ignorance in front of everyone here?
I don't know about any “conundrums” as of yet. But I do know the first hurdle you will have to jump is this one:
JA:
Quote Where you say that Jesus created 'everything…' it is not speaking of the sentient creatures, the Angels, the animal, Mankind? Again, you mind is slipping…
First, I never said Jesus “created” anything at all. We have but ONE Creator, who created all things THROUGH Jesus.
Second, put your claim against this scripture:Col 1:15-16 NWT
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.Does this, or does it not DIRECTLY say the invisible things in heaven were created “BY MEANS OF” Jesus?
This is from my first response to your post JA. Will you be so kind as to answer the purple question before moving on?
mike
Mike,
When a man builds his house… Does he actually build the house himself? By himself?
No, of course not, not even Robinson Crusoe did that on a desert island?
No, he employs skilled tradesmen, architechs, interior designers, plumbers, stonemasons, brickies, chippies, sparkies, plasterers, carpet layers, tilers, painters, more…
But yet, despite all the 'others' who helped, only one, at the top level, is mentioned…the owner of the house.
Mike, when you see a great house that has just been built, what does the signage say?
Does it not say something like, 'Built by …Jesus… for …God'?
So, did 'Jesus' alone build the house? No, of course not.
So why only 'Jesus' mentioned. Come one…you know the answer…!
Because he was the 'prominent one'.
In Jewish tradition, only the Senior Son is awarded the accolade, say, after a victory in battle. And you well know that 'Seniority' does not mean 'by birth' but by 'Rank order'. The 'firstborn son' need not be the 'Senior in Rank'…in the eyes of the father…: Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Adam!
Who built the Temple in Jerusalem? Was it Solomon alone?
Come on, Mike, this is child's play Scripture debate…
Only the Senior Son by Rank is accolladed,''privelege of rank, you know, ol' boy. Top ho and all that!!''I'm not sure if anyone will buy into your “All the angels helped with creation, but only the prominent Son is mentioned in the credits” scheme.
Aside from the fact that it's not scriptural, you leave a gaping hole in it: Why was Jesus the “prominent Son” in the first place before he came in the flesh?The following is the same scripture and question I asked from my first response to your post………again:
JA:
Quote Where you say that Jesus created 'everything…' it is not speaking of the sentient creatures, the Angels, the animal, Mankind? Again, you mind is slipping…
First, I never said Jesus “created” anything at all. We have but ONE Creator, who created all things THROUGH Jesus.
Second, put your claim against this scripture:Col 1:15-16 NWT
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.Does this, or does it not DIRECTLY say the invisible things in heaven were created “BY MEANS OF” Jesus?
This is my third request for an answer, JA. Will you be so kind as to answer the purple question before moving on?
mike
Has anyone noticed how Mike plays a double game.
When he realises he might be wrong he maintains his present position but then 'suggests' that he might give ground by saying something like, 'I am always ready to learn. If I am wrong I will happily accept it provided you can show me clear proof'.
Of course, he never (never say never, again) does give way, just disputes the proof, so he doesn't have to say 'ok, yeah, you're right.'
However, to his credit, he is dealing with many false ideas and seems to have an insatiable ability for research AND debating into that research.
However, as deep as his research has taken him, has he gained any further insight into Scriptures than anyone else who simply reads the Scriptures with discernment?
The answer is 'no'.This is the type of debate that the Greeks indulged in in the time when the Scriptures were written. They would spend all day, basically, their 'day job', arguing, debating, discussing, a single word…from it's structure, it's family base, the different usages and aspects of its usage, the application of that usage.
And for what reason? To show how 'cleverly' they can debate. Prominence is given to him who can 'spin' the best argument.
There isn't any real purpose to their act other than to fulfill a days 'work'. Sometimes the debates go on for months…unlike Mike's, which NEVER end.Who was it who said, 'For the Greeks seek Wisdom…'?
Hello to all I am coming here because at the prayer request no one goes and so please please pray for our 18 year old Granddaughter Tiffany. She is in the Hospital and Her Throat is getting so swollen that it is hard for Her to breath, and Her Oxygen level is going down. They Doctor was saying yesterday if She is not better by tomorrow they will operate on Her. But in the mean time, please pray, that they will do it today….. Cindy our Daughter is crying and very upset……Peace to all Irene
Irene,
Our sympathy is with you and yours.Please start a thread for the prayers you request and keep it updated to maintain it's prominence in our thoughts and mind.
May God show mercy and bring about a speedy solution. And if not, then keep the faith, because such tests of faith are brought on to us at one time and another.
Believe in the ressurection so that in all thing you do not sin by lack of in faith should the reality of God's impartiallity not fall in favour of that which we seek in the flesh, of the flesh.
May God's peace be on you and yours.Irene and family, may Tiffany, your Granddaughter be in the safe care of the Doctors and find some relief for her pain and her problems, Amen.
Mike,
Did you say that Jesus created the angels?If Lucifer is not at least as powerful as Jesus how is it he, Lucifer, can do battle with him, Jesus?
If Jesus created the angels then he has given them his spirit. The Spirit of Jesus is in him. And, you know then, that he cannot be as powerful as he who created him.
Where were the angels when the world was created? We know that the angels were in existence when the world and mankind were created because they 'shouted with joy'.
So what was their reason for being in existence?
See, Mike, you open Pandora's Box by your thought.
Who were the 'Stars that sang together'?
Mike, you say the Stars are not Jesus and the 'Principle Sons of God', and Jesus is not one of the [ordinary] Angels that shouted with joy.
So, where was Jesus, where was Lucifer, where were Gabriel and Michael?
At the most glorious moment in creation, there is no mention of the greatest glory of God, the Son himself.But, Mike, if the 'Stars' are the Princes, 'of whom one fell', then, even then, why isn't Jesus seen as prominent, standing out from the rest? Perhaps because he is just 'Among them' at that time.
Mike, i don't get it what you are saying…did Jesus create all things or did he not?
You say, God created all things through him. Please explain how that is different from Jesus creating all things.
God invested the creation process in Jesus…the Chairman of the Olympic Committee invested the development of the stadium and all the events, both in the stadium and without, to the Chief developer. The Chief Developer faithfully, and fully, carried out the instructions of the Chairman to the letter, to the word.Now, 'WHO BUILT THE STADIUM'?
And, 'WHO BUILT, the stadium'
And, 'WHO, built the stadium'?
Did the Chairman build it…yes
Did the Chief Developer build it,…yesDid all the workers who carried out the 'actual, physical!, work' build it,..(as one body), yes.
But we not talking about the individual parts of the building, we talking about the high level aspects.
Mike, when you watch the great Movie award ceremonies, who gets the accollade? Is it not the Director and the Star? yeah, the major 'Star'.
Mike, you seem to be fighting a war against aspects of Scriptures that has no part in the war you wage.
Your war is taking you into draughts of truth and delusion alternatively, because you refuse to accept truth due to simple arrigance, the 'i won't be beaten'.Mike, you need to know whom to fight against, and whom to link to as allie. In this forum, EVERYONE is your enemy. No one allies themselves to you, and it is no little wonder why.
I see you are debating something as obvious as ' Is Jesus God'?
Mike, you shouldn't even be entertaining such a topic with the posters here. You make yourself a fuul for such engagements.
'See and hear but don't Speak nor touch'…who was it that said that?
Oh, by the way, read your 'all things' quote very carefully…
Does any of what it mentions pertain to 'Life Beings'?Are 'Thrones', 'Powers', 'Principalities', living beings.
'Visible and Invisble' are not living things, but inanimate objects, 'Air, gasses, atomic elements unknown of 2000 years ago'… And orders of authorities, groupings of powers, organisations, … It says so plainly in the verse… there is no mention of Mankind nor Angels.How in heaven do you force the meaning of 'Invisible' to mean 'Angels'? Because the quote says 'he is the image of the Invisible God' so you unite 'Invisible God' with 'Invisible Spirits', Mike, Mike, if the author had meant 'Angels' he would have said, 'Angels', or 'Spirits'…but the whole context of the verse is about 'Organisational aspects', it says, 'Powers'…oooh, couldn't that mean 'Gods'?, 'Principalities', ooh, that could mean 'Human Kings and Princes' but hold on, Adam hadn't even been created yet? Or was he..Visible, then…that must mean Mankind…so Jesus IS OUR God, then by Mikeboll64…
Not sure he, Mikeboll64, knows what he's talking about…
Is there anyone who has an inkling?
You err very badly on this issue. I have seen you argue this point elsewhere but resisted to intervene but you bring it in front of me for comment, so learn the truth of your error.
Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 26 2010,15:18) Oh, by the way, read your 'all things' quote very carefully…
Does any of what it mentions pertain to 'Life Beings'?Are 'Thrones', 'Powers', 'Principalities', living beings.
'Visible and Invisble' are not living things, but inanimate objects, 'Air, gasses, atomic elements unknown of 2000 years ago'… And orders of authorities, groupings of powers, organisations, … It says so plainly in the verse… there is no mention of Mankind nor Angels.How in heaven do you force the meaning of 'Invisible' to mean 'Angels'? Because the quote says 'he is the image of the Invisible God' so you unite 'Invisible God' with 'Invisible Spirits', Mike, Mike, if the author had meant 'Angels' he would have said, 'Angels', or 'Spirits'…but the whole context of the verse is about 'Organisational aspects', it says, 'Powers'…oooh, couldn't that mean 'Gods'?, 'Principalities', ooh, that could mean 'Human Kings and Princes' but hold on, Adam hadn't even been created yet? Or was he..Visible, then…that must mean Mankind…so Jesus IS OUR God, then by Mikeboll64…
Not sure he, Mikeboll64, knows what he's talking about…
Is there anyone who has an inkling?
You err very badly on this issue. I have seen you argue this point elsewhere but resisted to intervene but you bring it in front of me for comment, so learn the truth of your error.
Jayes Christ as been used by God to create the angels.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 2:15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Heb 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
1Pe 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.all things=all of creation visible or invisible,
do you think he was not the first creation ??
if so all others were created trough him..NO???
Pierre
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