Virgin birth

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
What is this spirit of mankind?

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,13:22)

Hi KW, What is this spirit of mankind?

Ecclesiastics 3:21(KJV) reads:

Quote

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Scripture uses other words for it.  From the context of some scriptures “flesh” would be one of these words since we are instructed to live by the spirit of God instead of by the flesh.  In Romans 6 we are told to put the corrupt spirit of man(old man) to death as it died at baptism when the new spirit was received.

[KangarooJack]

Marty said:

Quote

The scripture does not state that Christ had no weaknesses.  It states that he was tempted every way just as we were and yet without sin.

Marty,
You're in denial good friend. The Scripture states that men with weakness  were appointed by law. Christ was NOT appointed by law. Therefore, Christ had no weakness. You infer that He had weakness because He was tempted. Your conclusion is not in accord with human experience. We know from experience that a man who has weakness will eventually yield to temptation at some point.

So your conclusions are out of accord with Scripture and also contrary to human experience.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
He was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power[acts10].
Was he already powerful and not really a man but a superman?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,22:12)

Hi TT, He was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power[acts10]. Was he already powerful and not really a man but a superman?

Those who had weakness were appointed by law. Jesus was not appointed by law but by oath. Ergo…. If you want to call this “superman” feel free. You're going to twist things anyway.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,16:17)

Quote (thethinker @ June 04 2009,12:09) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,21:03) Hi TT, Which part do you find not aligned with scripture? That he was a man or as a man was by your definition born guilty? Acts 2.22-23 1Tim2.5 etc You're playing games Nick. thinker Hi TT, No games. Jesus was a man according to scripture. Do you believe it?

Jesus was indeed a man. But He was NOT conceived in sin as you have spoken. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Like I said you are playing games.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (kerwin @ June 04 2009,19:21)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,13:22) Hi KW, What is this spirit of mankind? Ecclesiastics 3:21(KJV) reads: Quote Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Scripture uses other words for it.  From the context of some scriptures “flesh” would be one of these words since we are instructed to live by the spirit of God instead of by the flesh.  In Romans 6 we are told to put the corrupt spirit of man(old man) to death as it died at baptism when the new spirit was received.

Hi KW,
So individual men have a spirit but there is no such thing as the spirit of mankind.

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ June 04 2009,19:53)

Marty said: Quote The scripture does not state that Christ had no weaknesses.  It states that he was tempted every way just as we were and yet without sin. Marty, You're in denial good friend. The Scripture states that men with weakness  were appointed by law. Christ was NOT appointed by law. Therefore, Christ had no weakness. You infer that He had weakness because He was tempted. Your conclusion is not in accord with human experience. We know from experience that a man who has weakness will eventually yield to temptation at some point. So your conclusions are out of accord with Scripture and also contrary to human experience. thinker

Hi thethinker:

And so, what is the point of God allowing Jesus to be tempted?

If what you are saying is true, then he was not capable of committing sin.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ June 04 2009,18:11)

Marty wrote: Quote Sin entered into the world by Adam, but he is not responsible for anyone yielding to temptation. No one that I know of has claimed that Adam is responsible for anyone else but himself yielding to temptation, so that would be a strawman argument except you might actually be misunderstanding the position of others. The argument I make is that Adam sinned and the spirit of mankind was corrupted by that act and therefore his descendants inherited that corrupt spirit.  That corrupt spirit is in rebellion to God and so wants to sin.  That is why Jesus taught that a man must be reborn in spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven. The Holy Spirit, which we are not born with, wants to do God’s will.  The question then becomes “did Jesus have two spirits”, the first spirit which he inherited from Adam through his mother Mary and the second spirit which he received from God through faith.  Is this why Jesus prayed “as you will Father and not I will”? The bottom line is we are discussing how the spirit of man became corrupt.  Does the first sin of each man corrupt his own spirit or did the sin that Adam and Eve commit corrupt the spirit of mankind and thus each human receives a corrupt spirit from their parents? Hypothetical if each man’s spirit only becomes corrupt when they sin then it is plausible that a human being can be righteous by human effort.   That idea seems absurd when I examine it.   So it seems to me that you are stating that Jesus is righteous by human effort.  If that is so I disagree because the righteous live by faith.

Hi Kerwin:

How does Adam's sin corrupt the spirit of man? Or, how does one receive a corrupt spirit from their parents?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 05 2009,04:53)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,16:17) Quote (thethinker @ June 04 2009,12:09) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2009,21:03) Hi TT, Which part do you find not aligned with scripture? That he was a man or as a man was by your definition born guilty? Acts 2.22-23 1Tim2.5 etc You're playing games Nick. thinker Hi TT, No games. Jesus was a man according to scripture. Do you believe it? Jesus was indeed a man. But He was NOT conceived in sin as you have spoken. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Like I said you are playing games. thinker

Hi TT,
So Jesus was a man.
God is not a man.

Jesus was born of woman and Jb25 speaks of that or would you remove it?

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2009,01:50)

Quote (kerwin @ June 04 2009,19:21) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,13:22) Hi KW, What is this spirit of mankind? Ecclesiastics 3:21(KJV) reads: Quote Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Scripture uses other words for it.  From the context of some scriptures “flesh” would be one of these words since we are instructed to live by the spirit of God instead of by the flesh.  In Romans 6 we are told to put the corrupt spirit of man(old man) to death as it died at baptism when the new spirit was received. Hi KW, So individual men have a spirit but there is no such thing as the spirit of mankind.

There is not a common spirit of mankind just like we do not all have the a common human body even though each of our bodies is a human body and each of our spirits is a human spirit.

[kerwin]

Marty wrote:

Quote

How does Adam's sin corrupt the spirit of man? Or, how does one receive a corrupt spirit from their parents?

The human spirit is gained by inheritance. just like the body, which would explain why life is a cycle as the spirit brings life.

I am voicing a hypothesis to explain why all men need to be freed from slavery to sin.

I conclude that any sin corrupts a spirit though it may have been the type of sin Adam committed.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Is this from philosophy?
The human spirit returns to God at death.
There is nothing written about it becoming corrupt is there?

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ June 05 2009,11:16)

Marty wrote: Quote How does Adam's sin corrupt the spirit of man? Or, how does one receive a corrupt spirit from their parents? The human spirit is gained by inheritance. just like the body, which would explain why life is a cycle as the spirit brings life. I am voicing a hypothesis to explain why all men need to be freed from slavery to sin. I conclude that any sin corrupts a spirit though it may have been the type of sin Adam committed.

Hi Kerwin:

We do inherit a body, a soul and breath of life.  As infants, we are alive and are in innocence even as Adam and Eve were innocence before the fall. Our parents are either dead (spiritually separated from God because they have not been saved) or they have been saved and have a personal relationship with God.

The scripture does state that a child who is born to parents who are not saved is unclean, but I believe that is because the parents are not in a personal relationship with God.

If sin is defined as “the transgression of the Law”, I fail to see how one can inherit sin.

If a man lived his life and died without transgressing God's Law, yes he would be righteous.  Jesus was born of a woman under the law of Moses, and was brought up by parents who were under the law.  He was not anointed with the Holy Spirit until his baptism at the Jordan river, but the scripture states that he was tempted every which way and that he was without sin, and so, he did not sin before he received the Holy Spirit, and neither did he sin after.

The spirit to which I refer is not “breathe of life”, but the nature that a person develops through what he obeys.  Jesus stated:  

Quote

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

If someone has an evil spirit, it is because they have obeyed evil.

And so, I believe that we corrupt ourselves when we yield to temptation to sin.

Looking in the bible for the word corrupted, I find the following:

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Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth Exd 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted [themselves]: Jdg 2:19 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, [that] they returned, and corrupted [themselves] more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto themChrist. ; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.   2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
This is why we must overcome.
James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Lust exists in every man by the rule of Satan over men since the garden.
We are all born with such seeds ready to sprout within us.

It draws us away because we do not have the Spirit of God yet to empower us to resist.
Thence we become slaves to that sin living within us.

[NickHassan]

BHi,
So Jesus was born of a woman.
According to scripture he was born of a virgin.
Men have other opinions but have no evidence against what is written.

[942767]

Hi Nick:

You say:

Quote

Lust exists in every man by the rule of Satan over men since the garden. We are all born with such seeds ready to sprout within us.

Do you have scripture which indicates that all of us are born with seeds ready to sprout within us?

I agree that we have lusts within us, but no, I disagree that we were born with those lusts.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
Have a look at the verse from James.

” his own lust”

that personal lust conceives and becomes sin living within us[Rom7]

[942767]

Hi Nick:

In the scriptures that you have referenced James is referring to those in the body of Christ who are being tempted. He says:

Quote

Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

These lusts entered into the world through Adam and Eve. Here is 1 John states:

Quote

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Were we born with any of the above lusts or did we develop these as we yielded to temptation?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[NickHassan]

Hi 94,
So James says that lusts exist within men already before they bring them to life though obedience to them. Do you think this only applies to the saved and others have no lusts?

The god of this world gives the lusts of the world to natural men. Indeed Adam and Eve were the first to submit to his rule.

Death[1Jn2.17] and death in the baptism of Jesus [romn6]brings freedom from their control.

Whom the son sets free is free indeed.

[Author]

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