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The Thinker wrote:
Quote Therefore, my point still stands that if Jesus had evil desires then He was a sinner.
You are clearly forcing the evidence. Lets go back to Galatians five that clearly states evil desires come from the flesh just like I pointed out that Romans 7 does. Do you think Paul was inconsistent is his message? I certainly do not and so see it is you whom are inconsistent in your choice of interpretation.
Galatians 5:16(KJV) reads:
Quote This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Notice Paul clearly states “lust of the flesh”
Now he states that when in flesh the motions of sins aroused by the law produced the covetous desire. So I it is clear he is once again speaking about the flesh producing evil desires.
Romans 7:5(KJV) reads:
Quote For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Here I am going to say he is speaking of the “motions of sins, which were by the law” which are still the “lust of the flesh” mentioned in Galatians 5:16
Romans 7:8(KJV) reads:
Quote But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.
So “sinful passions” otherwise known as “motions of sins” do come before evil desires but you do not sin before you experience an evil desire. I assure you that being tempted is not the sin but rather giving into the temptation.
Still if you wish to be believe otherwise than that is your choice and like me you will be held accountable to God for your choices.
Kerwin said:
Quote You are clearly forcing the evidence. Kerwin,
Fact is you are manipulating some of the evidence and ignoring other evidence. I have invoked Hebrews 7 at least three times which says that Jesus was “SEPARATE” from sinners. You have yet to comment on it. You have also ignored that the angel told Mary that she would give birth to a “HOLY thing”. When are you going to get around to commenting on this evidence?In a previous post you said this:
Quote You are interpreting one scripture to contradict others. No! It is you who are pitting Scripture against Scripture. Practice what you preach! Please comment on all the evidence and harmonize it all.
Kerwin said:
Quote So “sinful passions” otherwise known as “motions of sins” do come before evil desires but you do not sin before you experience an evil desire. This is total confusion. How can “sinful passions ” come before evil desires when they are one and the same thing”? Verse 5 does NOT say that “sinful passions” come before evil desires. It says that sinful passions “bring forth fruit unto death”. You are inserting your notions into the text.
Kerwin said:
Quote Lets go back to Galatians five that clearly states evil desires come from the flesh just like I pointed out that Romans 7 does. Let's talk about the fact that Jesus is “separate” from sinners and that He was born a “holy” thing. Btw, Paul said that if we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is NOT equal to saying that the lusts themselves are not sin. Paul clearly said that sin PRECEDES sinful desires. The mere presence of a sinful desire in you testifies to the fact that you have sin in you. It is when you act on the evil desire that you complete or “fulfill” sin.
Face it Kerwin, you have a Savior that was sinful. I have a Savior that was as a lamb WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT! Your Savior is not qualified to save a rat.
thinker
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Fact is you are manipulating some of the evidence and ignoring other evidence. I have invoked Hebrews 7 at least three times which says that Jesus was “SEPARATE” from sinners. You have yet to comment on it. You have also ignored that the angel told Mary that she would give birth to a “HOLY thing”. When are you going to get around to commenting on this evidence?
How is the fact that Jesus did not sin and is a holy one of God have anything to do with our discussion about your absurd claim that the evil desires that allow one to be tempted are sin. You are lost and hopefully in time find your way back to what God actually states.
I merely pointed out that Romans 7 is stating the same thing as Galatians 5 and not contradicting it as you contend.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote This is total confusion. How can “sinful passions ” come before evil desires when they are one and the same thing”? Verse 5 does NOT say that “sinful passions” come before evil desires. It says that sinful passions “bring forth fruit unto death”. You are inserting your notions into the text.
What you states sounds correct in that “sinful passions” and “evil desire” are the same thing even though “sinful passions” appears to be used in the same context in Romans 7:5 of the King James Version as “sin” is used in Romans 7:8. I obviously have trouble with the outdated English but we still know that evil desires come from the flesh and that sin is given birth by evil desires and my error does not change that.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Paul said that if we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is NOT equal to saying that the lusts themselves are not sin
What? Does what you said even make sense since you are accusing Paul of cherry picking sins. According to what you just stated the Holy Spirit teaches us not to commit some sins while allowing us to commit others.
James 1:14-15(KJV) reads:
Quote But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Please note sinful desires give birth to sin and not the reverse.
I certainly see your confusion since scripture is stating that desire in one context is not a sin while it is a sin in another context. The determinate is whether or not you choose to entertain that desire or resist it.
James 4:7(KJV) reads:
Quote Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Kerwin said:
Quote How is the fact that Jesus did not sin and is a holy one of God have anything to do with our discussion about your absurd claim that the evil desires that allow one to be tempted are sin. You are lost and hopefully in time find your way back to what God actually states. Paul said that sin produces evil desires. Here it is again,
Quote But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire (Rom. 7:8) This CLEARLY says that sin “took opportunity” and “produced all manner of evil desire”.
Kerwin said:
Quote Please note sinful desires give birth to sin and not the reverse. Your interpretation of James' statement contradicts Paul's statement. James was saying that sinful desires produce the ACT of sin. Paul was talking about the sin PRINCIPLE which is in all of us and which produces the sinful desires in the first place. That sin principle works in all of us. But it did NOT reside in Jesus.
Sin produces evil desires which in turn produce sin (the act of sin).
Why do you think that Paul cried out saying, “Who shall deliver me from this body of death”? He recognized that the sin problem goes much deeper than you think. Sin is a vicious cycle. The sin in you produces the evil desires in the first place. Those evil desires in turn produce sin. If you walk in the spirit you will not act upon them. If you do not walk in the spirit you will complete or fulfill those lusts in your actions.
Either way sin is in you. But sin was NOT in Jesus. Your hamartiology fails the test because it makes Jesus LESS THAN a lamb without blemish and without spot!
thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus overcame.
What did he overcome?
Was he different and had a head start?
Can we follow then a man with such advantages?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2009,09:12) Hi TT,
Jesus overcame.
What did he overcome?
Was he different and had a head start?
Can we follow then a man with such advantages?
Would you feel better following a general into combat that had advantages over the enemy?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2009,17:12) Hi TT,
Jesus overcame.
What did he overcome?
Was he different and had a head start?
Can we follow then a man with such advantages?
Hi NHDo you or any one have the Spirit “without measure”?
If not why do you say he didnt have an advantage over us?
As usual you want to claim that Jesus was a mere man like us in every way.
Yet scriptures tell us something else. He is the Monogenes, Only Unique Son of God. That gives him an advantage over us.
He who knew no sin was the Word that was with God and was\is God.
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,09:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2009,09:12) Hi TT,
Jesus overcame.
What did he overcome?
Was he different and had a head start?
Can we follow then a man with such advantages?
Would you feel better following a general into combat that had advantages over the enemy?
Hi TT,
The power of God is best shown in weak people.
Would you rather that Jesus was super strong?Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2009,17:09) 942767(Marty), This is an interesting conversation about whether we inherited a corrupt spirit or our spirit became corrupted when we first sinned. I can some scriptures that would support either hypothesis but I am inclined to believe that inherited it correct since it would explain why all human beings have sinned with the exception of Jesus. Still at this point I am not sure I could conclude either hypothesis is true according to what I know. You seem sure of yourself but your confidence does not appear to be based on scripture of which you have pointed out very few and those few have not really supported your position. I believe it is best to end the current argument and let God work on us in other ways since we appear to have come to a dead end. May God bless us both by revealing his truth to both of us!
Hi Kerwin:I have been away for awhile in that my brother passed away, and I was in New Mexico for the funeral.
I have given you my understanding, and it isn't intended to argue my point, but I do believe that I have supported what I have stated wtih scripture.
He said, “Study to show yourself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth”.
And, so, that is what I am striving to do.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
I'm so sorry for the loss of your brother. I also just buried my brother this month.
I hope the Lord will give you comfort.Much love,
MandyThe Thinker wrote:
Quote Paul said that sin produces evil desires. Here it is again,
He did say that sin produces evil desire but he did not say that the offense came before the desire to commit the offense because that is an absurd statement. He is also not teaching about the relationship between sin and evil desires but he is rather teaching about how the law made him aware of his sinful state just as he states:
Romans 7:7(KJV) reads:
Quote What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
After stating his conclusion he goes on to offer his evidence for that conclusion.
Romans 7:8(KJV) reads:
Quote But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
We know that Paul is teaching that without the law he did not know sin and without the law sin was dead.
We also know that sin has a number of different definitions and like water or bread it can be used to symbolize other things. Still looking at
these definitions of the Greek word “Hamartia” I would conclude that Paul is using sin in the collective sense and not in the individual offense sense and even then he meant the ideal and not actually the collective of all sins since he is speaking of the effects of the law.Romans 7:13(KJV) reads:
Quote Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Your interpretation of James' statement contradicts Paul's statement. James was saying that sinful desires produce the ACT of sin.
I did state that sinful desires produce the act of sin. I also state each person is tempted by their own evil desires just like James states with these words “But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust”.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Paul was talking about the sin PRINCIPLE which is in all of us and which produces the sinful desires in the first place.
I was saying the sin principle, which is the flesh if I understand you correctly, did produce the sinful desires; and that is correct as far as it goes. Still looking at the context of Romans 7 and the meaning of “Hamartia” I changed my position to stating Paul is instead speaking of the ideal of sin.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote That sin principle works in all of us. But it did NOT reside in Jesus.
At this point I am disagreeing with you since according to James in order to be tempted you must have evil desires.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote Either way sin is in you. But sin was NOT in Jesus. Your hamartiology fails the test because it makes Jesus LESS THAN a lamb without blemish and without spot!
Hardly! Since being tempted by evil does not make Jesus LESS THAN a lamb without blemish and without spot because he did not sin even though he was tempted just as we are.
Quote (942767 @ May 29 2009,06:29) Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2009,17:09) 942767(Marty), This is an interesting conversation about whether we inherited a corrupt spirit or our spirit became corrupted when we first sinned. I can some scriptures that would support either hypothesis but I am inclined to believe that inherited it correct since it would explain why all human beings have sinned with the exception of Jesus. Still at this point I am not sure I could conclude either hypothesis is true according to what I know. You seem sure of yourself but your confidence does not appear to be based on scripture of which you have pointed out very few and those few have not really supported your position. I believe it is best to end the current argument and let God work on us in other ways since we appear to have come to a dead end. May God bless us both by revealing his truth to both of us!
Hi Kerwin:I have been away for awhile in that my brother passed away, and I was in New Mexico for the funeral.
I have given you my understanding, and it isn't intended to argue my point, but I do believe that I have supported what I have stated wtih scripture.
He said, “Study to show yourself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth”.
And, so, that is what I am striving to do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
My condolences to you on your loss. It is my hope that we all are sincere in searching for the truth and win free of the spirit of delusion Satan has sent against us. God can and will do it for those who truly seek him.Your conclusion may be based on scripture but you did not show me scriptures that directly relate to it though I can think of at least one offhand that may support your position which is why though I favor my current position I have not reached a firm conclusion and so am still learning about the issue.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2009,04:12) Hi TT,
Jesus overcame.
What did he overcome?
Was he different and had a head start?
Can we follow then a man with such advantages?
That is a good point!Marty,
My condolences to you on the loss of your brother. My younger brother passed away June of last year. God be with you friend.thinker
Mandy and Marty! Our sincerest Sympathy on your Brothers death. Loosing someone that you so dearly love is hard. God Bless both of YOU.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kerwin @ May 29 2009,18:17) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2009,04:12) Hi TT,
Jesus overcame.
What did he overcome?
Was he different and had a head start?
Can we follow then a man with such advantages?
That is a good point!
Not a good point! The question shows lack of insight. Jesus was born holy. Hebtrews 7 says that it was fitting for us that our high priest not have weakness.thinker
Kerwin said:
Quote He did say that sin produces evil desire… Now we're getting somewhere.
Quote … but he did not say that the offense came before the desire to commit the offense because that is an absurd statement. I never asserted this.
Quote He is also not teaching about the relationship between sin and evil desires but he is rather teaching about how the law made him aware of his sinful state just… Agreed!
Quote We also know that sin has a number of different definitions and like water or bread it can be used to symbolize other things. Still looking at
these definitions of the Greek word “Hamartia” I would conclude that Paul is using sin in the collective sense and not in the individual offense sense and even then he meant the ideal and not actually the collective of all sins since he is speaking of the effects of the law.I have already said that sin was a governing “principle”. It acts in the body,
Quote For in me, that is, in my flesh dwells no good thing Sin took residence in Paul's flesh and it produced the evil desires he had. Therefore, if Jesus had evil desires then He had a corrupt human nature. This is not possible because He was the Lamb WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT. A blemished lamb was NOT an acceptable sin sacrifice. It's that simple!
Your hamartiology is improving for sure. But you have a ways to go yet.
thinker
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2009,17:29) Marty, I'm so sorry for the loss of your brother. I also just buried my brother this month.
I hope the Lord will give you comfort.Much love,
Mandy
Mandy,
I did not see your post before. My condolences to you too.blessings,
thinkerQuote (942767 @ May 28 2009,19:29) Quote (kerwin @ May 27 2009,17:09) 942767(Marty), This is an interesting conversation about whether we inherited a corrupt spirit or our spirit became corrupted when we first sinned. I can some scriptures that would support either hypothesis but I am inclined to believe that inherited it correct since it would explain why all human beings have sinned with the exception of Jesus. Still at this point I am not sure I could conclude either hypothesis is true according to what I know. You seem sure of yourself but your confidence does not appear to be based on scripture of which you have pointed out very few and those few have not really supported your position. I believe it is best to end the current argument and let God work on us in other ways since we appear to have come to a dead end. May God bless us both by revealing his truth to both of us!
Hi Kerwin:I have been away for awhile in that my brother passed away, and I was in New Mexico for the funeral.
I have given you my understanding, and it isn't intended to argue my point, but I do believe that I have supported what I have stated wtih scripture.
He said, “Study to show yourself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth”.
And, so, that is what I am striving to do.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyMay the God of all comfort strengthen and bless you and yours through this difficult Time.
Blessings and Love, Keith
Quote (thethinker @ May 29 2009,11:28) Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2009,17:29) Marty, I'm so sorry for the loss of your brother. I also just buried my brother this month.
I hope the Lord will give you comfort.Much love,
Mandy
Mandy,
I did not see your post before. My condolences to you too.blessings,
thinker
Hi MandySame here!
Blessings and Love, Keith
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