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Hi mk,
Is there any doubt that Jesus is the Son of David if scripture says so?
The mechanics are less important.Why should you distrust the NT without true evidence?
Certanily Mt 28.19 may well have been added [Eusebius] but any others proven?
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 09 2008,22:39) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Doesn't verse 4 say that he is declared the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead?
G4690
σπέρμα
sperma
sper'-mah
From G4687; somethng sown, that is, seed (including the male “sperm”); by implication offspring; specifically a remnant (figuratively as if kept over for planting): – issue, seed.1 Cor 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cr 15:43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cr 15:44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Cr 15:45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Jhn 12:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.Jesus is that corn of wheat that died,,, however his resurrection brings forth much fruit
To me it seems that Jesus was sown in flesh (dishonour) and raised by the Spirit in glory
Hi meerkat good post.To add along the same lines,
In 1 Corinthians 15 Jesus is called the 'heavenly man' because he is the man resurrected into eternal life, not because 'he came down from heaven'.Romans 1:4 is an excellent scripture and one thing I think we need to keep in mind when we read the bible is that the New Testament was written AFTER his resurrection, therefore Jesus can be referred as the Son of God during any point in the NT.
Meerkat it is my understanding that when God punished Adam and Eve and brought corruption into the world in such forms as deterioration, degeneration, pain, suffering, sickness, and disease which can pass to offspring, He thus created the enmity between us and Him. By this I mean, He made us creatures that would be naturally drawn to SERVE our flesh, RATHER then SERVE Him.
Adam and Eve when they ate from the forbidden tree did not follow God's will do to a lack of understanding and trust. Eve wanted to be wise and she was following her ignorant mind (the serpent). God can teach our minds truth and He can show us understanding however with the punishment of death given unto mankind, our minds have become preoccupied with serving our flesh. This is why death is a great enemy and is said to be the last enemy to be destroyed.
Jesus was born and shown truth and understanding through the Holy Spirit, he was even given God's powers from the Holy Spirit creating further belief in God, but he was of course flesh and blood just like everyone and therefore he had a body, he had a will that was naturally drawn to serve his flesh. Through the use of the Holy Spirit instructing Jesus he was able to overcome his flesh, but as long as he was still in his corruptible body he would have a separate will. Jesus was still drawn to serve his flesh he just didn't allow himself to follow. This all changed however, upon his resurrection, when his faithful mind was combined with an eternal body, thus the enmity was destroyed and a new man was created, a True Son of God!
I see the serpent's seed as the ignorant mind that follows the flesh, and the woman's seed is Jesus and his example of overcoming the flesh and serving instead God.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Genesis 1:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”
Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.
Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
Psalms 44:25 For bowed to the dust hath our soul, Cleaved to the earth hath our belly.
Psalms 119:25 Cleaved to the dust hath my soul, Quicken me according to Thy word.
Micah 7:17 They lick dust as a serpent, as fearful things of earth, They tremble from their enclosures, Of Jehovah our God they are afraid, Yea, they are afraid of Thee.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
So to bring back a comment made earlier, what is with the 'womans seed,' in regards to Jesus? That does seem like it might be referring to a virgin birth.
All components necessary to make a human sperm do exist in a female body, the Holy Spirit could have easily formed one inside Mary.
Nick,
As well as being the son of David he is the seed of David – God has told us the mechanics of how he was going to do it.
You said ask God and he will tell me, I have and he has left his answer in the scriptures.Hi MK,
He was before Abraham and David.
David calls him Lord.The Spirit of Christ enlivens David[1Peter1]
He is the monogenes Son of God who was sent into the world[1Jn4]
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 11 2008,09:12) All components necessary to make a human sperm do exist in a female body, the Holy Spirit could have easily formed one inside Mary.
Jodi,Do you have any info on this please
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 11 2008,09:12) Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Eph 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Jodi,That was a great post!!
The only thing I didn't quite get was because the emnity was between the woman and serpent seed that it meant “virgin birth” prophecy.
Just some thinking out loud here:-
Because woman was taken out of man and rebelled and caused Adam to fall – Adam lost his birthright to spiritual progeny
Christ is the new Adam but is planted as a physical body and raised by the Spirit. We are the potential bride of christ (woman) but need to clean ourselves up as we have serpent seed and it can only be done through Christ – so we in effect are spiritually coming out of Christ as a child of God.
Why it refers to the womans seed is because Adam lost his birthright, but that in itself does not say that it needs to be a virgin birth especially as later all prophecies given seem to indicate Davids seed of his body being used to produce the Christ.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2008,04:30) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 11 2008,04:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2008,04:09) Hi MK,
Is 7 says “young woman” not virgin.
But the new fully reveals the old by the plan of God.
If God had not chosen a virgin then arguments would never cease about His statements that he is the Father
Hi brother Nick,
Do you mean God would have had flesh relationship with Virgin Mary so that Jesus could be His literal flesh son ?
Hi GM,
God is not flesh but is spirit.
God's Spirit overshadowed Mary and Jesus was conceived.
The monogenes son of God was sent into the world and partook of our flesh nature.
Hi brother Nick,
Thanks for your reply to my post. I know you will not agree with my arguments or of Meerkat. You believe in the pre-existence of Son in some way therefore you say that Monogenes Son has left his glory rather emptied his preexisting glory and somehow entered the womb of Mary which I still feel a mythology as rightly told by Sis Meerkat.When you say Jesus was real man where is the question of mystifying his origin or birth ? The whole O.T says the Jewish Messiah has to be a human born from the seed of David, then why should we mystify his birth by incorporating this another mythology of Virgin birth to Jesus ?
Hope God will give us understanding to see the simple truth of His Son's origins.
Peace to you
AdamNick……..that wasn't Adam's point. He is talking about the ( mystery) of reincarnation you preach, where is the proof of this.
Peace to you………………..gene
GB,
Reincarnation is passing from one body to another.
God and spirit beings are not embodied.
How could they reincarnate?Reincarnation is the incarnating again of a spirit, the spirit does not hop straight from one body to another, the idea is that the spirit which left a body, went back to God – then later is incarnated into a physical body. If we believe what Paul says that first is natural and then is spiritual – Jesus could not start out spiritual then incarnate in a physical body then become a spirit againby the power of the spirit.
Nick,
As you say God and spirit beings are NOT embodied – so Jesus could not have been a spirit – then incarnated
Hi mk,
Jesus was like us till the Jordan then was anointed and filled with the Spirit of God[lk3-4].
His own spirit left him at calvary[mt 27.50] and returned to God[ecc12].
He was made alive in the Abiding Spirit of God[1peter3]He is for us the source of that quickening Spirit[1cor15] unto eternal life in him in God.
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 12 2008,05:55) Reincarnation is the incarnating again of a spirit, the spirit does not hop straight from one body to another, the idea is that the spirit which left a body, went back to God – then later is incarnated into a physical body. If we believe what Paul says that first is natural and then is spiritual – Jesus could not start out spiritual then incarnate in a physical body then become a spirit againby the power of the spirit.
Right on, sister!Hi not3,
He started his earthly life as an ordinary man.
Then God filled him at the Jordan.
He thus became for us the source of that Spirit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 12 2008,09:41) Hi not3,
He started his earthly life as an ordinary man.
Then God filled him at the Jordan.
He thus became for us the source of that Spirit.
It is hard to leave old teachings and ways of thinking, isn't it?Jesus was BORN King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.
There is nothing “ordinary” about this.He had it at birth, bro. Before the Jordan.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 10 2008,12:44) I have actually read that an adopted son was seen as a blood son in regards to inheritance. As well I have read that if a woman's husband dies, then she would need to marry the husband's next of kin, and their child would legally be the son of the woman's first husband and the son would receive the dead husband's inheritance.
Hey Jodi,Long time, no chat. How are the girls?
Regarding an heir, you may recall God talking with Abe. He told him that his heir would “come from his own body” and be a son to him. I believe this is the key to who Jesus is.
As you know, I believe that Jesus is the true and literal son of God Almighty. In other words, Jesus came from God's own body/spirit.. No magical sperm here…..just a passing on of genetics.
Jesus is the new creation.
Jesus was a son from birth, we will receive our adoption as sons.
I sound like a broken record, I know we've been through this all before. Just wanted to chime in, I guess, it seemed appropriate for the discussion.
Love to you,
Mandy
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