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Quote (Not3in1 @ June 08 2007,12:46) Ah, Nick, don't make me cry again 
I've dried my tears now and am trying to toughen up. I shouldn't let Tim get to me like that. But you know, we all come here in need of something: guidance, friendship, support, love, acceptance, ministry and the list goes on. We all become a sort-of “family,” and it hurts when someone is mean or unusually condeming. I guess Tim has his reasons, and God knows our hearts. Tims way is not my way, that is for certain. But it takes many to make a family. It takes patience to learn from one another. And it takes humility to recognize we are not the only one with the right answer.Thanks, Nick. Your support and teaching have meant a lot to me!!
Hi not3,
If you really believed in the creeds and the traditional churches leadership and teaching then you would sincerely behave just as Tim2 does. The bible is a foreign tongue to them and only to be used as a reference book while their theology is their true belief basis..Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2007,12:54) Hi not3,
Those who build on tradition, as Paul initially built on Phariseeism, are speaking what their heart is full of when they express their hate of us. Our basis is completely different to theirs and is utterly challenged by the Word of God. They are being honest to their hearts but their hearts are misplaced with tradition in the place of God in their temples. They cannot love us or listen to us as the antichrist spirit is against Christ.
They too need to be thrown off their high horses by the Spirit of Christ and temporarily shown that they cannot see to have the scales taken off their eyes.
NHAhh. So now we are full of hate because we disagree with your doctrine.
You know this is starting to make me sick to my stomach.
If your purpose is to run people of then you are doing a pretty good job of it!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2007,12:54) Hi not3,
Those who build on tradition, as Paul initially built on Phariseeism, are speaking what their heart is full of when they express their hate of us. Our basis is completely different to theirs and is utterly challenged by the Word of God. They are being honest to their hearts but their hearts are misplaced with tradition in the place of God in their temples. They cannot love us or listen to us as the antichrist spirit is against Christ.
They too need to be thrown off their high horses by the Spirit of Christ and temporarily shown that they cannot see to have the scales taken off their eyes.
If people disagree with your views it doesn't necessarily follow that they hate you. I think you are being more than a little melodramatic here…Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 08 2007,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2007,12:54) Hi not3,
Those who build on tradition, as Paul initially built on Phariseeism, are speaking what their heart is full of when they express their hate of us. Our basis is completely different to theirs and is utterly challenged by the Word of God. They are being honest to their hearts but their hearts are misplaced with tradition in the place of God in their temples. They cannot love us or listen to us as the antichrist spirit is against Christ.
They too need to be thrown off their high horses by the Spirit of Christ and temporarily shown that they cannot see to have the scales taken off their eyes.
If people disagree with your views it doesn't necessarily follow that they hate you. I think you are being more than a little melodramatic here…
Not to be too technical here, but “hate” is defined:
1. Hostility (openly or actively unfriendly).
2. Aversion (feeling dislike or relunctance).
3. Dislike (unpleasant, to be avoided).I think it's a bit “unfriendly” to tell another believer that they are unsaved, wouldn't you?
Tim is definitly relunctant to have me be a part of the same family of God!
Finally, Tim says this site should be avoided because we are not a Christian site.
I guess “hate” is not so outlandish after all…….no?
Isaiah you even told me that sometimes we can become “blinded to some of our comrades obvious faults.” I believe this might be the case with you and Tim2?
I'm not saying let's burn him at the stake, I'm just saying there should be some accountability when you go about condeming children of God.
Quote I'm not saying let's burn him at the stake, I'm just saying there should be some accountability when you go about condeming children of God. –Not3
Not to defend anyone, for most of us are guilty of this, but we all feel very strongly about what we believe.
When some people (such as Cult buster for example) seem to be some sort of zombie like computer that just recites the same scriptures that don't really have anything to do with what we're discussing, it can be frustratingly mindnumbing to the point of beating your head into any hard surface. And when that happens, sometimes we overreact, such as I just did, (possibly because of the contusion) by calling him a zombie, which in fact, he just may be.
(As of yet, I have no proof to the contrary. I have previously asked T8 if there was a way to check if he was just a computer program that keeps spitting out the same scriptures, because he can't actually converse with people, but I don't remember T8 getting back to me on that.)
I'm hoping that if he is a real person, he realizes I'm half joking. (Half joking, because what I say is true…about how he converses, not about him being a computer.)
Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, yes, it's very late. Possibly another reason some of us overreact.It should be noted that Jesus showed righteous indignation and that if someone were to say for example: “God tortures people for all eternity for the sins of a few years” I would have no problem calling such a person mislead by Satan….because really, this is a satanic teaching that goes contrary to God's love, justice and wisdom, not to mention the Bible as a whole. Such a teaching also brings reproach upon God's name. So, sometimes we can speak loudly, more than is necessary.
I believe most of us have done this on here.It is true that we are not judges and should not condemn anyone. But their false teachings, and the way they deal with people….that seems to be fair game.
Hi david,
I am glad you do not take the exposition of the follies of JW dogma personally and I wait excitedly for your to present one thing from your own study that is not found among their dictated teachings.CB is a lonely man who has lost even the support he enjoyed here for a while once it was discovered that he really is a polytheist who teaches there are three deities. His solitary broken bell still sounds the knell of death.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 08 2007,18:59) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 08 2007,18:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2007,12:54) Hi not3,
Those who build on tradition, as Paul initially built on Phariseeism, are speaking what their heart is full of when they express their hate of us. Our basis is completely different to theirs and is utterly challenged by the Word of God. They are being honest to their hearts but their hearts are misplaced with tradition in the place of God in their temples. They cannot love us or listen to us as the antichrist spirit is against Christ.
They too need to be thrown off their high horses by the Spirit of Christ and temporarily shown that they cannot see to have the scales taken off their eyes.
If people disagree with your views it doesn't necessarily follow that they hate you. I think you are being more than a little melodramatic here…
Not to be too technical here, but “hate” is defined:
1. Hostility (openly or actively unfriendly).
2. Aversion (feeling dislike or relunctance).
3. Dislike (unpleasant, to be avoided).I think it's a bit “unfriendly” to tell another believer that they are unsaved, wouldn't you?
Tim is definitly relunctant to have me be a part of the same family of God!
Finally, Tim says this site should be avoided because we are not a Christian site.
I guess “hate” is not so outlandish after all…….no?
Isaiah you even told me that sometimes we can become “blinded to some of our comrades obvious faults.” I believe this might be the case with you and Tim2?
I'm not saying let's burn him at the stake, I'm just saying there should be some accountability when you go about condeming children of God.
Hi Not3in1,
Now you are beginning to feel the frustration I have felt for some time. As was already posted all of us have come on here for diffeent reasons. I doubt there are many on here who actually believe they have anything to learn that will drastically change their doctrine. I myself have some reasons for being on here that others do not like. For instance I have (at times) considered this entertainment and little else. I also practice my writing skills and was hoping to see some objection to my understanding of scripture I had not dealt with 100 times before. Still looking for that. What I have found is that even when one corners one in their irrational stand and their unfairness and dishonesty with scripture they just go on in their mystical reverie. ie; my comments “waste of time.”Some consider this a ministry, but my question is it's effectiveness. I have never seen anyone that has really changed a major doctrinal stand. Sure we may learn something but the trinitarians, Jw's and others remain in their same doctrines. No matter the proof that is stacked up against them. “A man convinced against his will is of the same oppinion still”.
“A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” I like that
Mainly because it's true of most everyone, myself included.However; I did change my opinion back in 2003 when I learned that the Trinity was not in the Bible (there explicitly taught). I had nothing to gain by venturing into deep study and seclusion; I had placed myself in the minority of faiths; I had left church and seriously have grieved my friends and family. Why would anyone go through such tremendous agony if not to seek out the one true God until he be found! Indeed I did find him, and his Son!
I have changed my opinion on a solid comittment I had since my youth (the Trinity). It was a scary trek to turn my back on the only teaching (and community) that I had ever known. It took a lot of courage to put my shoulder to the wind and press in towards God…..a God I had never known! To some, the previous sentence may bring a shrill of fear, but to me it has brought freedom and life.
Changing my opinion has brought freedom and sweet salvation to my very soul (and spirit)! The only fear I will ever have now is the holy fear of God – who holds me in the shallow of his hand. Praise you, Father! Honor and power be yours, dear Son.
N3n1,
You are well loved and well received with me, you are quicker on the keyboard then I am. I emphasize w/ you regarding the 'hurt and tears' have been there before, myself. Prayer is very powerful, and even though some may not speak it out, it does not mean that one is not prayed for. I am not one that is quick on the draw w/ scriptures, some that post OY VEY !!, I must sometimes wait and be led by the spirit in what to say, I do not want to be found in any other way.
I have been mainly on the trinity board w/ wj, and it was I who stated that 'man strives to be a god everyday', if he choses to do the same that was up to him. I am not afraid to speak it out.
Now, if one feels that this board is full of unbelievers, then shake your cloak off and go, preach to another. Others will stay and do the work that we are to do, preach to the lost, bring in his flock.
If ones that hurt, and only say they are sorry for the words, and not sorry that they hurt one of his children, is their burden to bear.
I have not read many of this 'tim's' post, probably is good reason for it. I did however want to respond to what he said here
Quote Condemnation of heretics and blasphemers has been mandated from the earliest history of Israel and has been administered by the church to the present day. Who who has not sinned, cast the first stone.
Quote The original Nicene Creed condemned all those who denied it. You take on the universal faith, you are now under her rule.
Quote The Fifth Ecumenical Council condemned a host of heretics. They live by the golden rule of man:
Whoever has the gold makes the rule.Quote The Athanasian Creed condemns all who do not accept it. Where do they have the right to judge a man's heart?
Quote These creeds have been accepted by millions of Christians for 1700 years, and the early church was equally as vigilant in condemning the gnostics. Love it when one who teaches the trinity uses the word gnostics.
The church that you speak of would be upset w/ you only using 1700 years, I know this for truth, because I speak to one that tells me this all the time.Quote This is a sad but necessary history, for the church does not have the ministry of condemnation but of reconciliation. They also have created icons, false prayers, have the blood of the maryters on their hands.
Quote But the fact remains that those who do not believe in the gospel are already condemned. This is sad, but true. Depending on what gospel you speak of also, which gospel are you referring too? I speak of the Good news, Christ.
And this, not attacking the person, just the doctrine…….false teachings, if they proclaim the faith, then that is the person. This goliath teaching…….where are all the david's?
We should never feel alone while we are here on this earth, never. For we are well taken care of:
Eph because of this take ye up the whole armour of Yahweh, that ye may be able to resist in the day of the evil, and all things having done–to stand. Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about in truth, and having put on the breastplate of the righteousness, and having the feet shod in the preparation of the good-news of the peace; above all, having taken up the shield of the faith, in which ye shall be able all the fiery darts of the evil one to quench, and the helmet of the salvation receive, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the saying of Yahweh.
N3n1, you are scripture feed and spirit bred. proverbs 31.
Much love to you and yours.
Thank you for your words David, and Olive thank you for your encouragement and understanding. You are quick to share the truth you know, and I respect that wholeheartedly.
Jesus told us to love our enemies (one that attacks or tries to harm another)……may we endeavor to do that everyday!
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,04:18) “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.” I like that Mainly because it's true of most everyone, myself included.However; I did change my opinion back in 2003 when I learned that the Trinity was not in the Bible (there explicitly taught). I had nothing to gain by venturing into deep study and seclusion; I had placed myself in the minority of faiths; I had left church and seriously have grieved my friends and family. Why would anyone go through such tremendous agony if not to seek out the one true God until he be found! Indeed I did find him, and his Son!
I have changed my opinion on a solid comittment I had since my youth (the Trinity). It was a scary trek to turn my back on the only teaching (and community) that I had ever known. It took a lot of courage to put my shoulder to the wind and press in towards God…..a God I had never known! To some, the previous sentence may bring a shrill of fear, but to me it has brought freedom and life.
Changing my opinion has brought freedom and sweet salvation to my very soul (and spirit)! The only fear I will ever have now is the holy fear of God – who holds me in the shallow of his hand. Praise you, Father! Honor and power be yours, dear Son.
Was your change in oppinion due to this site? My point was that I have yet to see anyone change their oppinion because of this site.Martian, no it was not. But my point was that people can make a change, and you never what tool will work for someone.
May I offer that I have received a few private emails from people who do not post (they lurk and read), and they possibly may change their opinions by the fruit of this ministry (you never know)!
I believe in this ministry. I'm not here to change someone's mind. I'm here to shine the light on what truth I have found and to see what other's have found. This ministry is a part of my journey – my trek for truth – my “seeking” and finding. I'm sure grateful to t8 for beginning a great work….
For those of you that think you have a right to judge another’s salvation — I am sorry to point this out but the position of “accuser of the brethren” is already taken so give it up.
I find I am having a sort of Dejavue. All this accusation about people’s salvation reminds me of my studies of the inquisition. Unfortunately, even after hundreds of years, the heart attitude of the inquisition is still alive and well. If someone wants to be a modern day inquisitor that is their choice, I will just laugh and go on since I know my savior and lover of my soul is smiling at me.
So much for Tim’s theories. Now for the facts. There is no place in scripture that says that you must believe that Jesus is part of a Trinity to be saved. There is no requirement to even believe that Jesus is deity. What is required is as Paul very clearly points out.
I Cor 15
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,Here very very clearly Paul points out that if you believe that Christ died for your sins and that He rose from the dead then you are saved. Paul was not shy to tell the truth and he was thorough. If it was required to believe in a triune God to be saved then Paul would have said so.
In all my debate with those I believe in false doctrine, I never accused anyone of not being saved. Worshippinmgjesus and I have gone round and round, but I still respect his salvation and expect to see him on the other side. Even Tim who I said and still maintain has responded irrationally to my posts, is expected by me to make it. However, when someone accuses another of not being saved when they fulfill those requirements laid down clearly by Paul for salvation, then they are dancing a fine line. They risk doing the work of Satan by saying “Hath God said?” Hath God said you shall be saved if you follow Paul’s instruction or do you need to do/believe more?
Certainly believing false doctrine can rob you of victory and blessing on this Earth. It could also rob you of rewards in heaven, but if you believe that Christ died for your sins and that He rose from the dead, you are saved. If you maintain this belief you are going to heaven. Regardless of what anyone might say.
Those who place additional requirements, such as doctrines of Trinities ect are as guilty as the Pharasees that went beyond the law and placed burdens on the people. By placing additional requirements on people to be saved they are preaching a false gospel. A gospel Paul never preached.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,10:05) Martian, no it was not. But my point was that people can make a change, and you never what tool will work for someone. May I offer that I have received a few private emails from people who do not post (they lurk and read), and they possibly may change their opinions by the fruit of this ministry (you never know)!
I believe in this ministry. I'm not here to change someone's mind. I'm here to shine the light on what truth I have found and to see what other's have found. This ministry is a part of my journey – my trek for truth – my “seeking” and finding. I'm sure grateful to t8 for beginning a great work….
Not3,
I have read that it was the Watchtower that persuaded you that the trinity was a false doctrine. I wonder if you could please list their arguments that convinced you of this. I'm curious.Thanks
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,10:05) Martian, no it was not. But my point was that people can make a change, and you never what tool will work for someone. May I offer that I have received a few private emails from people who do not post (they lurk and read), and they possibly may change their opinions by the fruit of this ministry (you never know)!
I believe in this ministry. I'm not here to change someone's mind. I'm here to shine the light on what truth I have found and to see what other's have found. This ministry is a part of my journey – my trek for truth – my “seeking” and finding. I'm sure grateful to t8 for beginning a great work….
As I have posted befre. People are on here for different reasons. If you choose to believe this is a ministry for you then more power to you. I still have serious doubts of it's effectiveness.
My reasons for posting differ from yours, and that's OK too.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 09 2007,10:50) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,10:05) Martian, no it was not. But my point was that people can make a change, and you never what tool will work for someone. May I offer that I have received a few private emails from people who do not post (they lurk and read), and they possibly may change their opinions by the fruit of this ministry (you never know)!
I believe in this ministry. I'm not here to change someone's mind. I'm here to shine the light on what truth I have found and to see what other's have found. This ministry is a part of my journey – my trek for truth – my “seeking” and finding. I'm sure grateful to t8 for beginning a great work….
Not3,
I have read that it was the Watchtower that persuaded you that the trinity was a false doctrine. I wonder if you could please list their arguments that convinced you of this. I'm curious.Thanks
Hi Isaiah,Sure, I'd be happy to list their arguments if I could. But we didn't argue, nor did they provide me a list of scriptures. They simply told me that I needed to be aware that the Trinity wasn't written in the Bible. I thanked them and told them that I believed that it was! I then sat down to read the Word (now looking back, it was like I was reading it for the very first time). God really met me as I searched him out.
I searched and searched (sometimes all day into the wee hours of morning), but they were right, I never did find the Trinity. Now 4 years later, I found what I was looking for, but it looks a lot different than I thought it would. I thought I could “prove” the Trinity and show them where they were obviously incorrect. Instead, I found my heavenly Father and his Son…..my heavenly family that had been taken from me in the name of orthodoxy.
I do not believe that Jesus preexisted, and so I am not welcome in the JW club either. Like I've said before, I'm a bit of a spiritual-misfit. Which suits me, really.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,11:50) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 09 2007,10:50) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,10:05) Martian, no it was not. But my point was that people can make a change, and you never what tool will work for someone. May I offer that I have received a few private emails from people who do not post (they lurk and read), and they possibly may change their opinions by the fruit of this ministry (you never know)!
I believe in this ministry. I'm not here to change someone's mind. I'm here to shine the light on what truth I have found and to see what other's have found. This ministry is a part of my journey – my trek for truth – my “seeking” and finding. I'm sure grateful to t8 for beginning a great work….
Not3,
I have read that it was the Watchtower that persuaded you that the trinity was a false doctrine. I wonder if you could please list their arguments that convinced you of this. I'm curious.Thanks
Hi Isaiah,Sure, I'd be happy to list their arguments if I could. But we didn't argue, nor did they provide me a list of scriptures. They simply told me that I needed to be aware that the Trinity wasn't written in the Bible. I thanked them and told them that I believed that it was! I then sat down to read the Word (now looking back, it was like I was reading it for the very first time). God really met me as I searched him out.
I searched and searched (sometimes all day into the wee hours of morning), but they were right, I never did find the Trinity. Now 4 years later, I found what I was looking for, but it looks a lot different than I thought it would. I thought I could “prove” the Trinity and show them where they were obviously incorrect. Instead, I found my heavenly Father and his Son…..my heavenly family that had been taken from me in the name of orthodoxy.
I do not believe that Jesus preexisted, and so I am not welcome in the JW club either. Like I've said before, I'm a bit of a spiritual-misfit. Which suits me, really.
I am in agreement on many matters. That does make this site more palatable.
You are living proof that if a person reads the Bible without a preconcieved idea of doctrine you will come to the truth about the Trinity.If you are interested, I can send you some info via the private message center for your further study.
By the way – I do not doubt your salvation.
I don't doubt Not3's salvation either, given that I subscribe to the OSAS view. I strongly believe that the trinity doctrine best accounts for all the biblical data on the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine makes sense of a lot of scripture.
Quote I do not believe that Jesus preexisted, and so I am not welcome in the JW club either. Like I've said before, I'm a bit of a spiritual-misfit. Which suits me, really.
I'm not really sure what the subject of this thread is supposed to be anymore and I don't think we're following it anyway, so I don't mind asking this off topic question:So, you believe Jesus didn't exist until he was born on earth? May I ask why you believe this?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 09 2007,13:01) I don't doubt Not3's salvation either, given that I subscribe to the OSAS view. I strongly believe that the trinity doctrine best accounts for all the biblical data on the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine makes sense of a lot of scripture.
OSAS – that took me a minute to get Well, there is a thread all by itself, huh? I hope it's true, I really, really do. I keep reading a little word in scripture though – “if.”
“If” you keep my commmands…
“If” you endure till the end….
Makes me wonder if we are a shoe-in once we're saved or if we are required to follow certain rules to “keep” our salvation.
Good thread to start……
Oh, and God bless you a million times over for not doubting that I am saved!
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