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Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2013,13:34) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,15:31) My point is lost on you and t8, the religious authorities, Pharisees, educated lawyerly quibblers etc. heard what Jesus said in whatever phraseing and language that he used. They concluded what Trinirarians conclude, that Jesus was calling himself divine, on par with God. Jesus did not correct them if they in fact misunderstood. Quote Jesus was calling himself divine, on par with God. First off, to be on par with God means that you are not God.
If women are equal to men, then that means that women are not men. If Jesus has equality with God, then you draw from that, that he is not God.And to possess divine nature does not make you THE Divine, just as angels who are spirits are not God Almighty who is a Spirit. Also, we are explicitly taught that we too can participate in divine nature in scripture.
Quote Jesus did not correct them if they in fact misunderstood. You say that Jesus did not correct them. Ahem! Read his response for yourself.
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them `gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken–
36 what about the one whom the Father set ; Apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God’s Son’?Where exactly did God say that he was God here? Can't see it.
Trintarians often point out the words “I and the Father are one”, then later we can see that the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God. Therefore the claim is made that Jesus was claiming to be God which upset the Jews. But on closer inspection this text reveals the complete opposite. The irony here is that Jesus said earlier in verse 29, My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all and after the accusation that Jesus was claiming to be God by the Jews, Jesus then reminds them of the usage of the word “gods/theos” in the Old Testament.
Jesus was actually referring to Psalms 82:6 which reads:
“I said, `You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’After Jesus reminds the Jews of this, he then asks them:
…”Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s son’?” (verse 36 ).We know that ‘theos’ is Greek for God, but the word can also be used to describe the following:
- refers to the things of God
- his counsels, interests, things due to him
- whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
- God’s representative or viceregent of magistrates and judges
When you remove all bias and indoctrination, you can see the truth because it is in plain sight.
Jesus is answering the blasphemy charge, he's not denying that he is in fact the Son of God. He had a clever wit about him.Colter
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2013,13:36) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,15:36) “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5)
Oh yeah that one says that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity….NOT.What a weak support verse for your view.
Jesus had glory with God before the world began.
If he is the firstborn of all creation, then that doesn't make him God.
Have another go Colter.
I've have explained a number of times that Jesus is not the second person of the Trinity, but you insist on returning to that theme.The Son of Man existed with the heavenly Father before this word was, but you do not believe that. Most Christians do, you are the one with the problem, nothing I or anyone else can say is going to move you from that entrenched position. You can be snarky and talk down to people but that won't change the facts of who Jesus IS. His spirit was poured out upon all flesh, he is now a present spiritual reality.
Colter
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 19 2013,08:20) Boditharta. Many understand that scripture a different way.
They see it as Jesus coming out from heaven,where God is.
In fact *He came out from inside God*.If you have understood it this way, then it is time to worship him. For he is not *just a prophet* like mohamad.
You have Jesus;you have God.You believe in the Word,you believe in God.
You reject the Word;you reject God.This is what you, and muslems believe; that jesus is just a prophet from God;and mohamad is the last prophet from God.
You can not believe one thing, and say the
something else.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega,the first and the last.
There is no comparison to mohamad.Sorry if I have offended you in anyway.
wakeup.
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,15:22) Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 19 2013,08:20) Boditharta. Many understand that scripture a different way.
They see it as Jesus coming out from heaven,where God is.
In fact *He came out from inside God*.If you have understood it this way, then it is time to worship him. For he is not *just a prophet* like mohamad.
You have Jesus;you have God.You believe in the Word,you believe in God.
You reject the Word;you reject God.This is what you, and muslems believe; that jesus is just a prophet from God;and mohamad is the last prophet from God.
You can not believe one thing, and say the
something else.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega,the first and the last.
There is no comparison to mohamad.Sorry if I have offended you in anyway.
wakeup.
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)
Mohamed lived long after Christ, he didn't have faith in him, he didn't understand that Jesus was God in human form.Colte
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,15:24) “first born” can mean preeminence. Are you guys Jehovah's Witnesses?
Colte
It actually does often mean preeminence in the Bible, so does the term “Son” and other words.Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,15:22) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)
Hi BD,That is proof that muslims worship a different “GOD” than JEHOVAH!
Ed (witness)
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 19 2013,15:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,15:22) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)
Hi BD,That is proof that muslims worship a different “GOD” than JEHOVAH!
Ed (witness)
So you don't believe tha Jesus was a Spirit proceeding from God and His Word?Or is it you do not believe that Jesus was a messenger of God? Jesus himself said “This doctrine is not mine”
You may not believe the “son” statement but in reality the scriptures use that term often and previous before Jesus
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #101)
New International Version
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.What wife God did HE have a son with?
He created Jesus, right?
People have children what would God lack that HE would need a son?
They say: “Allah hath begotten a son”: glory be to him.-Nay, to him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to him.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #116)
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,15:56) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 19 2013,15:41) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,15:22) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)
Hi BD,That is proof that muslims worship a different “GOD” than JEHOVAH!
Ed (witness)
(1)So you don't believe tha Jesus was a Spirit proceeding from God and His Word?(2)Or is it you do not believe that Jesus was a messenger of God? (3)Jesus himself said “This doctrine is not mine”
(4)You may not believe the “son” statement but in reality the scriptures use that term often and previous before Jesus
Hi BD,1) No, Jesus came out from God. (John 16:27)
2) Jesus is NOT a failed messenger as islam teaches.
The Bible says Jesus is the only begotten “Son of GOD.”3) Correct, Jesus delivered GOD's message – Muhammad did not!
4) The term “Only Begotten Son” was only used after Jesus was born.
But the prophecy of Jesus' birth was recorded in Isa 7:14 and Micah 5:2.Ed
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,16:07) To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things. ( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #101)
New International Version
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.What wife God did HE have a son with?
He created Jesus, right?
People have children what would God lack that HE would need a son?
They say: “Allah hath begotten a son”: glory be to him.-Nay, to him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to him.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #116)
Boditharta.*QUOTE*.
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #101)
*UNQUOTE*:——————————————————————
THE SCRIPTURE ABOVE IS TRUE;GOD CREATED ALL THINGS,BUT BY HIS WORD ARE ALL THINGS MADE THAT WAS MADE.GOD CREATED ADAM WITHOUT A WIFE;JUST THE DUST OF THE GROUND. ALSO BY HIS WORD: FOR HE SAID;
LET **US** CREATE MAN IN **OUR IMAGE**
**OUR** THAT IS GOD AND HIS WORD.IN THE BEGINNING GOD *BROUGHT FORTH* HIS WORD,
AND GAVE HIM A SHAPE LIKE HIM. THIS *BEGINNING* WAS, WHEN GOD STARTED CREATING: FOR ALL CREATURES, AND THE HEAVENS HAD A BEGINNING.
GODS WORD IS FROM EVERLASTING IN HIM.
THE *ESSENCE* OF HIS WORD IS TRUTH(HOLY SPIRIT)
AND WISDOM.
——————————————————————*QUOTE*:
New International Version
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.
What wife God did HE have a son with?*UNQUOTE*:——————————————————————
YES; AND **GOD SAID**. **HE SAID THE WORD**
ALL IS CREATED BY THE WORD;AND THAT WORD WAS MADE FLESH, GODS WORD ALSO CREATED THE MAN JESUS,BY USING THE WOMB OF A WOMAN,SO HE IS A *TRUE MAN* LIKE US.WITHOUT HIM(THE WORD) WAS *NOT ANYTHING* MADE THAT WAS MADE.THIS INCLUDES THE *MAN JESUS*.
—————————————————————–
*QUOTE*:
He created Jesus, right?
People have children what would God lack that HE would need a son?*UNQUOTE*:——————————————————————
GOD CREATED A MAN CHILD,SO HE CAN GROW UP AMONGST HIS BRETHREN, AND SHINE THE LIGHT; THE TRUE LIGHT. THE WORD OF GOD DWELLING IN THE FLESH TEACHING HIS CHILDREN THE TRUTH. A HOLY MAN WITHOUT SIN,THE *IMAGE OF GOD* THAT IS ALSO WITH *NO SIN*,FOR GOD IS GOOD;GOD IS HOLY. GOD COULD HAVE CREATED A SON OUT OF A STONE;BUT NO; HE MUST BE LIKE HIS BRETHREN,BORN OF A WOMAN;OUT OF WATER AND BLOOD.
——————————————————————*QUOTE*:
They say: “Allah hath begotten a son”: glory be to him.-Nay, to him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to him.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #116).
*UNQUOTE*:——————————————————————THE SON OF GOD CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN,HE IS THE BREAD THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. ISLAM DONT ACCEPT THAT BREAD FROM HEAVEN;SO THEY CAN ONLY HAVE THAT BREAD THAT PERISHES. THE SPIRITUAL FOOD GOD HAS PROVIDED US THROUGH HIS SON; *THEY, MUSLEMS*; AS THE JEWS, HAVE REJECTED.
THEY HAVE GONE AFTER STRANGE FLESH,AND THREFORE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GIVEN.
THAT IS WHY ALL THOSE BOOKS WRITTEN BY MEN,TEACHING ERROR.RELIGIONS, AFTER RELIGIONS,
ABOUT GOD,WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT(TRUTH).
ISLAM IS ONLY ONE OF THEM,THEY USE HUMAN LOGIC.wakeup.
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,17:29) The Son of Man existed with the heavenly Father before this word was, but you do not believe that.
Rubbish.Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,17:18) Jesus is answering the blasphemy charge, he's not denying that he is in fact the Son of God. He had a clever wit about him.
You missed the point. He is not claiming to be God.Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,17:29) I've have explained a number of times that Jesus is not the second person of the Trinity, but you insist on returning to that theme.
Colter you are making little sense in your rebuttals.I am not insisting that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and I never said that your Trinity does either. I am saying that any Trinity whether it be the Urantia, Hindu, Egyptian, or Catholic all originate in Babylon where the birth of the concept took place.
I am not saying that all these Trinities say that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. I am not even saying the Catholic one is either. Probably does, but that doesn't concern me.
So please stop babbling because that too is a fruit of Babylon.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2013,20:44) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,17:18) Jesus is answering the blasphemy charge, he's not denying that he is in fact the Son of God. He had a clever wit about him.
You missed the point. He is not claiming to be God.
No, you missed the point, those who heard him thought that he did ullude to his divinity: The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”…and so have many generations of believers especially after the rest of the story. So your rebuttal is just one of the many weak arguments employed by the anti divinity fringe.
Colter
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,00:14) No, you missed the point, those who heard him thought that he did ullude to his divinity: The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
No you along with those brainwashed by the Trinity Doctrine miss the point.Look again. He never says he is God. They think he alluded to it. He reminds them of the usage of the word elohim/theos and how it applies to God's sons/counsel. He then finishes with saying that he is God's son. Even a child could follow that without concluding that Jesus was claiming to be God. Problem is, when you believe that he is God, then you take verses like that to support your view and are unable to see it for what it is. In other words you understanding is tainted.
Believing that Jesus is the son of God is what makes a person a true Believer in Jesus Christ, along with believing that he is the messiah. Jesus built his Church on these truths and the Gates of Hell will never prevail against it.
Not even if 99% of all religions believed in the Trinity would it prevail against the truth that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.
You are either for him or against him. If you are for him, then you would believe his words. If you are against him, then you disagree with him.
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,00:14) So your rebuttal is just one of the many weak arguments employed by the anti divinity fringe.
Your words are false or bear false witness about me.I agree that Jesus existed with divine nature/in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, served God, died for humanity, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
When Stephen was stoned to death, he looked up and saw Jesus at the right hand of God. He didn't see Jesus as God, or three persons as God. Such is pagan. Just like the Urantia.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2013,21:41) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 20 2013,00:14) So your rebuttal is just one of the many weak arguments employed by the anti divinity fringe.
Your words are false or bear false witness about me.I agree that Jesus existed with divine nature/in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, served God, died for humanity, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
When Stephen was stoned to death, he looked up and saw Jesus at the right hand of God. He didn't see Jesus as God, or three persons as God. Such is pagan. Just like the Urantia.
I did not know you thought that, it simply did not occur to me that anyone would believe that yet not realize that Jesus is a personification of the Father; God.…..and you expect a lot from a guy being stoned to death.
The right hand of the Father is a spiritual termt8, they aren’t literally sitting on two chairs, side by side in the sky.
(239.10) 21:4.4 After each of his bestowals a Creator Son proceeds to the “right hand of the Father,” there to gain the Father’s acceptance of the bestowal and to receive instruction preparatory to the next episode of universe service. Following the seventh and final bestowal a Creator Son receives from the Universal Father supreme authority and jurisdiction over his universe.
(240.1) 21:4.5 It is of record that the divine Son of last appearance on your planet was a Paradise Creator Son who had completed six phases of his bestowal career; consequently, when he gave up the conscious grasp of the incarnated life on Urantia, he could, and did, truly say, “It is finished” — it was literally finished. His death on Urantia completed his bestowal career; it was the last step in fulfilling the sacred oath of a Paradise Creator Son. And when this experience has been acquired, such Sons are supreme universe sovereigns; no longer do they rule as vicegerents of the Father but in their own right and name as “King of Kings and Lord of Lords.” With certain stated exceptions these sevenfold bestowal Sons are unqualifiedly supreme in the universes of their abode. Concerning his local universe, “all power in heaven and on earth” was relegated to this triumphant and enthroned Master Son.
(240.2) 21:4.6 Creator Sons, subsequent to the completion of their bestowal careers, are reckoned as a separate order, sevenfold Master Sons. In person the Master Sons are identical with the Creator Sons, but they have undergone such a unique bestowal experience that they are commonly regarded as a different order. When a Creator deigns to effect a bestowal, a real and permanent change is destined to take place. True, the bestowal Son is still and none the less a Creator, but he has added to his nature the experience of a creature, which forever removes him from the divine level of a Creator Son and elevates him to the experiential plane of a Master Son, one who has fully earned the right to rule a universe and administer its worlds. Such beings embody all that can be secured from divine parentage and embrace everything to be derived from perfected-creature experience. Why should man bemoan his lowly origin and enforced evolutionary career when the very Gods must pass through an equivalent experience before they are accounted experientially worthy and competent finally and fully to rule over their universe domains!
Colter
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