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Hi GM,
I have yet to hear that universalists believe all men are in Christ
but they are the only ones who have this hope.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 22 2008,02:08) Adam……all who are not in the first resurection will come up in the second and be Judged and at that time there eyes will be opened by GOD”s Spirit and they will repent, just as those who murdered Jesus did when the Spirit of Truth came on them. Had that not happened none of them would have repented. But out GOD in mighty to SAVE even the lost sheep, as WJ and Tim said. I am going to the Coast for a week vacation, I rent Some condo's for all my children and grandchildren for a week every year it's our family vacation. I'll take my laptop but i don't know if there is a place i can use it, if not GOD WILLING I check in a week.
Love and peace to you and yours Adam. and to all……….gene
Hi brother Gene,
Thanks for your response. Have a nice week on vacation with all your family members.
May God continue to guide you in your plans for your family.
Wish you all the best.
Pass my love to all your family members.
Peace and love to you
AdamHi CO,
Of course the ALL refers to just a remnant at that time, not all men who have ever lived.
First sin and it's cause and those it masters, are purged away.No enemies of faith will survive.
1Cor15
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Ok, I have not the patience to go through all the posts so I will deal with the verses at the beginning and throw in a little logic too…
1 Tim. 2:4 …our saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come to the realization of the truth.That verse goes along with John 3:16… God wants all to be saved. You have the problem though of this- Ephesians 2:3;5 and Colossians 2:13 all say that we are dead in sin, we cannot respond to God's gift of salvation if we are dead. So He (God) raises some, and not others and they see God's grace and find it irresistable… and the logic flows on from there.
1 Tim. 4:10 …that we rely on the living God Who is the saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. (Not only believers.)
It is speaking of how God saves every man from different things. God saves un-believers from famine, plauge, death, for a time. Look at the words used. If God is the savior of all mankind in the same way then how is the savior ESPECIALLY of those who believe? How He saves the believers is different than how he saves unbelievers. As I said, unbelievers are saved from temporary things. Christs death “bought them time”, in a sense.
1 Cor. 15:28 …Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.
That has nothing to do with salvation, it is like saying “Jesus is the Alpha and Omega! He saves everyone!” That makes no logical sense.
Now for the part I enjoy the most, critical thinking! God is infinite in His being and value. We see this throught scripture.
Three questions first. When I slap a hobbo, what happens? I get punched. When I slap the president, what happens? Well I get a nice dog pile, a friendly interigation and some jail time. Why? Because the president has more value and worth than the hobbo, thus my crime is deserving of a higher punishment.
When I sin, basically I am slapping God. When I slap an infinite God, what happens? I get infinite puniushment, A.K.A. Hell.Also, God can't just wink at sin and say “it's alright, I will only have you in hell for a while then you can come join the party”. If He we to do so God would be unjust and thus He would not be God, He has to punish the crimes according to what they deserve.
That is why we had Christ die for us, so He could pay a price for us that we could not pay. What is the point of having Christ die if we all get into heaven anyways? God would be stupid for that! But God is not stupid, he is wise.
Quote (chosenone @ July 23 2008,12:23) Nick.
Since when has “all” not meant “all” when stated so in correct context such as 1.Cor.15:28 ?
Hi CO,
All often means other that all there is or has ever been.I have eaten all my beans
but the world is not running short of them.Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2008,15:18) Quote (chosenone @ July 23 2008,12:23) Nick.
Since when has “all” not meant “all” when stated so in correct context such as 1.Cor.15:28 ?
Hi CO,
All often means other that all there is or has ever been.I have eaten all my beans
but the world is not running short of them.
Context!!! Yes, you ate all YOUR beans. Not the rest of the worlds beans.God will be ALL in all. Means everyone.
Context you know?
Hi CO,
1Cor 15
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Context.The ALL at this stage surviving the crucible of God's purification of mankind
will be rather few.Quote (Silentbeard @ July 23 2008,14:42) Ok, I have not the patience to go through all the posts so I will deal with the verses at the beginning and throw in a little logic too…
1 Tim. 2:4 …our saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come to the realization of the truth.That verse goes along with John 3:16… God wants all to be saved. You have the problem though of this- Ephesians 2:3;5 and Colossians 2:13 all say that we are dead in sin, we cannot respond to God's gift of salvation if we are dead. So He (God) raises some, and not others and they see God's grace and find it irresistable… and the logic flows on from there.
1 Tim. 4:10 …that we rely on the living God Who is the saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. (Not only believers.)
It is speaking of how God saves every man from different things. God saves un-believers from famine, plauge, death, for a time. Look at the words used. If God is the savior of all mankind in the same way then how is the savior ESPECIALLY of those who believe? How He saves the believers is different than how he saves unbelievers. As I said, unbelievers are saved from temporary things. Christs death “bought them time”, in a sense.
1 Cor. 15:28 …Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.
That has nothing to do with salvation, it is like saying “Jesus is the Alpha and Omega! He saves everyone!” That makes no logical sense.
Now for the part I enjoy the most, critical thinking! God is infinite in His being and value. We see this throught scripture.
Three questions first. When I slap a hobbo, what happens? I get punched. When I slap the president, what happens? Well I get a nice dog pile, a friendly interigation and some jail time. Why? Because the president has more value and worth than the hobbo, thus my crime is deserving of a higher punishment.
When I sin, basically I am slapping God. When I slap an infinite God, what happens? I get infinite puniushment, A.K.A. Hell.Also, God can't just wink at sin and say “it's alright, I will only have you in hell for a while then you can come join the party”. If He we to do so God would be unjust and thus He would not be God, He has to punish the crimes according to what they deserve.
That is why we had Christ die for us, so He could pay a price for us that we could not pay. What is the point of having Christ die if we all get into heaven anyways? God would be stupid for that! But God is not stupid, he is wise.
Hi Sb,
Christs' death and ressurrection has justified ALL mankind. (Ro.3:24-25)
If Christ had not died for our sins, NO ONE would be saved.
Your logic that if all are saved,Christ need not of died for us, has no scriptural meaning.Blessings.
Hi CO,
Context
“Romans 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.The OUR is the Saints-Rom 1
How sad that so many refuse the free gift
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.Nick.
So whats your problem? Notice the last part of Romans.5:18 …the free gift came unto ALL men unto justification of life. Even your scriptural posts disagree with you.Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ July 23 2008,15:49) Quote (Silentbeard @ July 23 2008,14:42) Ok, I have not the patience to go through all the posts so I will deal with the verses at the beginning and throw in a little logic too…
1 Tim. 2:4 …our saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come to the realization of the truth.That verse goes along with John 3:16… God wants all to be saved. You have the problem though of this- Ephesians 2:3;5 and Colossians 2:13 all say that we are dead in sin, we cannot respond to God's gift of salvation if we are dead. So He (God) raises some, and not others and they see God's grace and find it irresistable… and the logic flows on from there.
1 Tim. 4:10 …that we rely on the living God Who is the saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. (Not only believers.)
It is speaking of how God saves every man from different things. God saves un-believers from famine, plauge, death, for a time. Look at the words used. If God is the savior of all mankind in the same way then how is the savior ESPECIALLY of those who believe? How He saves the believers is different than how he saves unbelievers. As I said, unbelievers are saved from temporary things. Christs death “bought them time”, in a sense.
1 Cor. 15:28 …Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.
That has nothing to do with salvation, it is like saying “Jesus is the Alpha and Omega! He saves everyone!” That makes no logical sense.
Now for the part I enjoy the most, critical thinking! God is infinite in His being and value. We see this throught scripture.
Three questions first. When I slap a hobbo, what happens? I get punched. When I slap the president, what happens? Well I get a nice dog pile, a friendly interigation and some jail time. Why? Because the president has more value and worth than the hobbo, thus my crime is deserving of a higher punishment.
When I sin, basically I am slapping God. When I slap an infinite God, what happens? I get infinite puniushment, A.K.A. Hell.Also, God can't just wink at sin and say “it's alright, I will only have you in hell for a while then you can come join the party”. If He we to do so God would be unjust and thus He would not be God, He has to punish the crimes according to what they deserve.
That is why we had Christ die for us, so He could pay a price for us that we could not pay. What is the point of having Christ die if we all get into heaven anyways? God would be stupid for that! But God is not stupid, he is wise.
Hi Sb,
Christs' death and ressurrection has justified ALL mankind. (Ro.3:24-25)
If Christ had not died for our sins, NO ONE would be saved.
Your logic that if all are saved,Christ need not of died for us, has no scriptural meaning.Blessings.
Read the next verse after verse 25, verse 26 Romans 3:26 “It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” Hmm… sounds like only those who believe will be justified… I don't think everyone has believed. Ex.- Hitler, Judas…I am refering to when someone said that our sins will be paid for in Hell and then you get to go to heaven (purgatory) which is what I was refuting.
I completely agree Christ needed to die for us to be saved but you have the problem of verses that go like this- John 10:27 “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”
Matthew 25:32 “Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” and againRevelation 20:6 “Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.”
Revelation 20:14 “Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
Revelation 21:8 “But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
and for me this kind of tops it offRevelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Mark 9:48 “'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'”
And please answer my argument about God being infinite and His punishment being infinite.
God bless,
SilentHi Sb, Thanks for your reply.
When you quote scripture as in John 10:27, you must “correctly cut the word of truth” (2Tim.2:15). This means we must distinguish “who is speaking, and to whom it was spoken”. I hope you don't mind this explanation, but it is neccessary to understanding scripture.
Jesus' teachings were to the Jews, see Matt. 14:24 “I was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Jews). In this era, His (Jesus) teachings were for the Jews only, (see Eph.2:11-12 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh — who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands —
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
In this era, and scripture to the Jews, while they were under the 'law' and the 'old covenant' with God, their entrance to the “kingdom” was dependant on their obediance to the “law”. Much different than our present situation, we are under “Grace”, not the law, as the Jews were in that era. The point I am trying to make, is that scripture meant for the Jews, in that era (eon), was not the same as scripture to the “nations” (us) in todays era. They were under the “law”, while we are under “Grace”.
To clear this up, the 'old testament and the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are for the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” and taught by Jesus. Pauls epistles are for us “the nations”.
Now having said this, it doesn't mean that these scriptures should be ignored by us. All scripture is FOR US, but all scripture is not ABOUT US. All scripture is neccessary for us to understand what God is doing with His creation. “All is of God, all is by Him, through Him, and for Him.” (Ro.11:36)
I gave this explanation to show that much misunderstanding occurs when you apply scripture that was given to the Jews, that does not neccessarily apply to us today, and apply it to us. They (Jews) were under the “Gospel of the kingdom” while we are under the “Gospel of Grace”.
I hope this will explain my reasons for disagreeing with some who apply all scripture as relevant to us today.God Bless, Jerry.
Hi SB,
Do not be decieved but those who would chop up the gospel and appoint the words of Jesus to others.Jn6
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Quote (chosenone @ July 24 2008,07:00) Hi Sb, Thanks for your reply.
When you quote scripture as in John 10:27, you must “correctly cut the word of truth” (2Tim.2:15). This means we must distinguish “who is speaking, and to whom it was spoken”. I hope you don't mind this explanation, but it is neccessary to understanding scripture.
Jesus' teachings were to the Jews, see Matt. 14:24 “I was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Jews). In this era, His (Jesus) teachings were for the Jews only, (see Eph.2:11-12 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh — who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands —
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
In this era, and scripture to the Jews, while they were under the 'law' and the 'old covenant' with God, their entrance to the “kingdom” was dependant on their obediance to the “law”. Much different than our present situation, we are under “Grace”, not the law, as the Jews were in that era. The point I am trying to make, is that scripture meant for the Jews, in that era (eon), was not the same as scripture to the “nations” (us) in todays era. They were under the “law”, while we are under “Grace”.
To clear this up, the 'old testament and the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are for the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” and taught by Jesus. Pauls epistles are for us “the nations”.
Now having said this, it doesn't mean that these scriptures should be ignored by us. All scripture is FOR US, but all scripture is not ABOUT US. All scripture is neccessary for us to understand what God is doing with His creation. “All is of God, all is by Him, through Him, and for Him.” (Ro.11:36)
I gave this explanation to show that much misunderstanding occurs when you apply scripture that was given to the Jews, that does not neccessarily apply to us today, and apply it to us. They (Jews) were under the “Gospel of the kingdom” while we are under the “Gospel of Grace”.
I hope this will explain my reasons for disagreeing with some who apply all scripture as relevant to us today.God Bless, Jerry.
Hi Jerry,
I know very much of the thing you are speaking of, I have to deal with people taking things out of context alot. It is refreshing to see someone who cares about that and I thank you for caring.But you still have this small problem, when you look at all those verses in context (passage and history) their meaning remains the same. Christ said he would gather ALL THE NATIONS (not just the Jews) and seperate the sheep from the goats. Obviously sheep are saved and goats are not. Matthew 25:32.
Yes, Jesus came to minister to the Jews, but did He not heal Gentiles? Ex- Mark 7:26. So either Jesus was contradicting (impossible) or He came to the Jews but He also ministered to Jew, Samaritin (must I bring in the example?) and Gentile.
Also, how about verses that it doesn't matte abou their context because their meaning is plain such as Revelation 14:11 and Mark 9:48. Both those clearly state that Hell is eternal, it never ends. And then Revelation 21:8 shows us who is in this eternal Hell. Quick note, all the verses I am using are in my previous post… so just check them out there.
Also, you have YET to answer my argument about God's infinite worth requiring infinite punishment… I am very very persistant. Answer it.
Also, what is your response to Romans 3:26? Again I will state that it shows that only those who believe are justified.SB
Matthew 25:32 “Before him will be gathered all the nations (isn't this the word meaning Gentiles — and doesn't the resurrection consummate the , and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
1] I actually have questions concerning whether people will get out of hell (though not out of the lake of fire):
is it possible, then, that Christians will be saved “but so as through fire”? in this way… Daniel 12:3 seems to disagree, saying that when the virgins arise (Matt 25:1-13)”… some to everlasting life and other to everlasting shame and contempt.” that the shame and contempt is eternal…2] Is it possible that people can be cast into hell for a season – “…until they have paid the utterest farthing”?
2b] I have come to understand the first resurrection as being the judgment of believers — “judgment must begin at God's house.” so that at the second resurrection, it includes the bodies of those who'd died during the millenium and those who died without hearing about Christ – and “if any man's name was not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life” they are cast into the lake of fire. This means that some of them are going to be saved.
Quote (Hanoch @ July 25 2008,07:26) SB Matthew 25:32 “Before him will be gathered all the nations (isn't this the word meaning Gentiles — and doesn't the resurrection consummate the , and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
1] I actually have questions concerning whether people will get out of hell (though not out of the lake of fire):
is it possible, then, that Christians will be saved “but so as through fire”? in this way… Daniel 12:3 seems to disagree, saying that when the virgins arise (Matt 25:1-13)”… some to everlasting life and other to everlasting shame and contempt.” that the shame and contempt is eternal…2] Is it possible that people can be cast into hell for a season – “…until they have paid the utterest farthing”?
2b] I have come to understand the first resurrection as being the judgment of believers — “judgment must begin at God's house.” so that at the second resurrection, it includes the bodies of those who'd died during the millenium and those who died without hearing about Christ – and “if any man's name was not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life” they are cast into the lake of fire. This means that some of them are going to be saved.
Ok, there is ALOT to say about all of that. I will try to keep it as short as I can.1.) I don't understand your reasoning. I agree with the conclusion that hell is eternal and everlasting… but your logic is going over my head. As for the “as through fire” part that just means that they are saved but they get nothing extra in heaven. They were saved by God's grace IN THIS LIFE, but they did nothing for Him IN THIS LIFE, thus they don't get the rewards that are spoken of in the Bible for doing good works.
2.) Always put the reference of the verse you are using otherwise I can't really trust it. I think I know what you are talking about. Either this- Luke 12:59 “I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.” (there is an identical verse in Matthew) or Matthew 18:34 “And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.”
Before I begin, remeber that no analogy is perfect, including Jesus' analogies. I have yet to find a perfect analogy for anything.
For the first verse you must understand that God is infinite in value and when you sin against Him you must pay an infinite penalty or debt. So the point in that verse is “you will have to be in hell till you pay off the debt. Stinks for you though since you can't pay for it.” Obviously Jesus wouldn't say it like that but you get the picture.
For the second verse, it said that before when he still had to pay the debt that he would be sold with his family and all he had. But the punishment here is being given to the jailers, to different things entirerly. The jailers probably are speaking of things that happen in this life. When I continue in sin as God's child He disciplines me to teach me not to do that. Some will say that “is my interpretation”. But every verse must be taken in context of all of scripture. All of scripture does not elude to an idea of purgatory as some will try to make this verse say. If the rest of scripture does not speak of purgatory, we must assume that this does not speak of purgatory.
2.b) I don't exactly get what you are trying to say…
I am sorry, to be honest I don't exactly get what you are trying to get at at all. Are you trying to defend Universal Salvation? Purgatory? What?
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