Universal Salvation

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,17:02)

Hi CO,
So the general teachings of Jesus do apply to every audience
but those teachings of the apostles apply just to the saints?

Nick.
What is this supposed to mean? Use some scripture, or a specific event in scripture to explain what you mean. I think you just throw in a few words because you have no basis for a debate.

Blessings

June 18, 2008 at 5:23 am#93260

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ June 18 2008,16:21)

Nick, All scripture is FOR us, but not all scripture is ABOUT us. I believe what Jesus said in Matt. 15:24. It seems you are the one who doesn't believe His words.

Blessings.

Hi CO,
If all scripture is for us why do you not accept the teachings of Jesus?
Instead you say
“Different messages. Jesus' taught entrance into the “Kingdom” to the Jews, by “works”, this was an earthly Kingdom.”

June 18, 2008 at 6:19 am#93276

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 18 2008,17:23)

Quote (chosenone @ June 18 2008,16:21)

Nick, All scripture is FOR us, but not all scripture is ABOUT us. I believe what Jesus said in Matt. 15:24. It seems you are the one who doesn't believe His words.

Blessings.

Nick. We are to read all scripture if we are to understand what “God is doing”. Most scripture tells of God and His “chosen people”. Their rejection of God even when He sent His Son, and He also was rejected. I can't go on explaining all of the bible to you. Surely you must have some idea of what is going on in the scriptures. The more I converse with you, I find you don't even have a clue what scripture is all about. You seem to think ALL scripture is about us, when most of His work is with “His chosen people”.

Blessings.

June 18, 2008 at 6:22 am#93278

Participant

Hi CO,
It is hard, I suppose, to feed those who are not your children with predigested food.
We do not accept your false and uncontextual doctrine.
You speak with the voice of a stranger.

June 18, 2008 at 7:20 am#93284

Participant

Eph 2:8-10
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
NIV

This says that we have been saved by grace. The greek word here is charis and it is also translated in scripture as “favor.” Charis also can mean a supernatural, unmerited gift. [Charismata comes from “charis”]

It also says that this grace/favor is through faith. I looked up the meaning for faith, and this word is also translated as belief and also means fidelity. If grace [favor] is through faith, what is faith [belief] and what does that mean?

Rom 3:31

31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith ? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Faith upholds the law???!!!!!

Rom 4:1-3
4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about — but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
NIV

Faith is belief. Belief is followed by action; obedience. Some may call this works

Rom 4:18-23

18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 Without weakening in his faith , he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead — since he was about a hundred years old — and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
NIV

Abraham’s faith was his belief in God’s promises, and that belief was proved by his obedience. His actions.

Rom 11:19-21
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith . Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

NIV

So the Jews were “broken off” because of unbelief. In the OT, they didn’t enter the promised land due to “unbelief” This “unbelief” did not mean that they doubted YHWH’s existence. They had walked through the parted Red Sea. They had seen and been led by the pillar of fire and cloud. They had seen water come from a rock and manna fall from the sky. They had witnessed the plagues in Egypt. They knew He was real. What was their unbelief? It was their disobedience. They refused to put their life on the line and fight to take the promised land, even though YHWH had already given them the land and the victory. They did not have faith in Him to do what He told them to do. Unbelief is disobedience. Belief is obedience. Obedience produces works. Faith produces deeds. If there are no deeds, there is no faith. Sound familiar?

Rom 11:22
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Cut off?!!!! What happened to “once saved, always saved?”

Phil 3:9-14
9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith . 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
NIV

He states that the righteousness comes by faith and then he talks about sharing in the sufferings of Messiah, and dying and pressing on. This sounds like work…

1 Tim 6:12-13
12 Fight the good fight of the faith . Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
NIV

So faith is a fight. And we are to “take hold” of our eternal life. Hmm… is that like working out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Heb 6:1
6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God
NIV

So repentance is a foundation just as much as faith is…

Heb 6:11-12
11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
NIV

Faith is work. It takes diligence and without it, you cannot inherit the promise.

Heb 10:38-39
38 But my righteous one will live by faith .
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him.”

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
NIV

If faith was like an easy magic word that saved people, no one would “shrink back.” But clearly, there are those that do. They are destroyed. [This again disproves “once saved always saved” and “salvation of all”]

Heb 11:7

7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.
NIV

He obeyed [which took action, work] out of faith[belief]. If he didn’t produce any work, mankind would have been wiped out. It is impossible to have faith without works.

Heb 11:8-9

8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
NIV

By faith Abraham… obeyed [works!]

James 2:14

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
NIV

James 2:17-19
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith ; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
NIV

James 2:20-24

20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
NIV

James 2:26
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
NIV

June 18, 2008 at 7:24 am#93285

Participant

John 6:29

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
NIV

Excuse me? Belief is a work??

June 18, 2008 at 7:34 am#93287

Participant

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love .
NIV

Faith is expressed through love… What is love and how is that evidenced?

John 14:21-24
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching .
NIV

Obeying Messiah’s commands and His teaching is evidence that we love Him. That sounds like work.

We do what He says because we love Him. Works are not done out of law [have-to]. They are done out of love [want to].

When you are in love, you do things. You wash your spouse’s car. You surprise them with a gift. You make their favorite meal. You wake up at 2am to change a dirty diaper. You do these things out of love, not obligation. This is works, but it is not legalistic [out of obligation]. Because you love, works are manifested.

Real love is evidenced by works. Real faith is evidenced by love….

June 18, 2008 at 1:08 pm#93295

gollamudi

Participant

Nice posts Shania.
Have you understood Chosenone's concepts?

June 20, 2008 at 2:23 am#93590

Participant

What I have understood from Chosenone is that we are not under repentance anymore- under grace. I disagree with this because we are saved by grace through faith. Faith is belief. If we believe Him, we will obey His teaching. We will come out of sin and walk in HIs ways. We will walk in the light. This includes repentance. Repentance means to “turn back.” It is like doing a 180 degree turn from the life that you once lived. You have to repent to walk with Him.

June 20, 2008 at 2:27 am#93595

Participant

Hi Shania,
Thanks.
Yes God can do what He wants.
But it would be presumptuous to say he would save all men if that is not written.

Faith is what He wants.
Heb11
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

June 20, 2008 at 2:40 am#93603

Participant

Hi,
Many use this scripture to defend their universalist belief.

1Tim 4
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour[4990] of all men, specially of those that believe.

Number 4990
Transliteration:
soter {so-tare'}
Word Origin:
from 4982
TDNT:
7:1003,1132
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
Saviour 24

Total: 24
Definition:
saviour, deliverer, preserver The name was given by the ancients to deities, esp. tutelary deities, to princes, kings, and in general to men who had conferred signal benefits upon their country, and in more degenerate days by the way of flattery to personages of influence

So God preserves all men.
Do all men have equal advantages then?
SPECIALLY would not be required if it related to eternal salvation.

The same wages are paid to all.

Matt20
11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

June 20, 2008 at 4:41 am#93621

Participant

Another scripture Nick thinks should be eliminated from the bible: 1Tim.4:10 ” (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching). (Notice verse 11 “These things be charging and teaching”.) Nick would eliminate this statement because it does not fit in with “The gospel of Nick”. His version of the bible would eliminate a lot of scripture that he does not agree with.

Blessings.

June 23, 2008 at 8:51 pm#93810

Participant

Hi,
1tim4
10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God specially saves those that believe?
If this relates to eternal salvation how are some saved, but not specially?

June 23, 2008 at 9:05 pm#93811

Participant

Hi,
Of course salvation can relate to other matters.
Scripture shows other uses for salvation than just eternal salvation.

Matthew 8:25
And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
Matthew 14:30
But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 27:42
He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

June 23, 2008 at 10:40 pm#93815

Irene

Participant

Nick I like to bring another important Scripture about grace and salvation.
Ephesians 2: 8 ” For be grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves, it is a free
gift of God.
verse 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
verse 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works
which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

In Christian Love Irene

June 24, 2008 at 4:37 am#93859

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2008,09:05)

Hi,
Of course salvation can relate to other matters.
Scripture shows other uses for salvation than just eternal salvation.

Words of Jesus, who said “I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matt.15:24)
Please “correctly cut the word of truth”.
Not much use useing scripture if it's not for us!

Blessings.

June 24, 2008 at 4:44 am#93862

Participant

Hi CO,
So his words are not for all but Paul's are?

June 24, 2008 at 4:48 am#93864

Participant

Nick.
Surely even you, a master of scripture, should already know the answer to this.

Blessings.

June 24, 2008 at 4:51 am#93866