- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote Very good point. The first chapter of Hebrews is an apologetic work in which the writer demonstrates the absolute supremacy of Christ. The fact that he is a greater being than the “Hosts of Heaven” is a given…. Hi Is 1:18
Slap me! I must be dreaming! You and NH actually agree!
Cool!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 17 2007,08:16) Quote Very good point. The first chapter of Hebrews is an apologetic work in which the writer demonstrates the absolute supremacy of Christ. The fact that he is a greater being than the “Hosts of Heaven” is a given…. Hi Is 1:18
Slap me! I must be dreaming! You and NH actually agree!
Cool!
Hi w,
Not all make it policy never to.I dont think anyone is really disagreeing here. Jesus is begotten of the father.
He is unigue among the sons of God.
However, he certainly was an angel. He is the angel of the new covenant whom John the baptist another angel prepared the way for.
angel = messenger
Jesus is far above the seraphims, cherabims, powers, thrones, dominions, wheels…etc….
He is not of their substance. yet he is an angel.
Worshipping Jesus
Quote ——————————————————————————–
Quote
Um, he's quoting from the Hebrew scriptures. He's quoting something “the Lord” said, in Jeremaih. That's actually stated in the scripture itself. Please look again.And yes, often it doesn't directly say that he's speaking through other people, but at other times this is made very clear, very obvious.
(Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)David
The writer of Hebrews is saying that the Holy Ghost is the one who spoke the words in Jer 31:33.
You and Charity are not being true here!
Read it again. The Holy Ghost spoke Jer 31:33.
They are not being true WJ or they will accept the truth. Instead they Um and Ah, dance and squirm this way and that way rather than face confronting truths. But I don't expect them to put away their Arian doctrine, which is what keeps this website going.
Blind Freddy can see that The Holy Spirit is Jehovah (God).
Sorry David but your response does not make sense or explain away the evidence of scripture. What is the point of reading the Bible if you twist its meaning to suit your religious inclinations.
Look again!
JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit
Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.Rev 22:9 worship God.
It is so obvious. Jehovah spoke = The Holy Ghost spoke.
Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)It's right in front of your eyes. God spoke = The Holy Ghost spoke. Get real!
Compare
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.With
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.It's so obvious. The Lord spoke = The Holy Ghost spoke. Why don't you want to see?
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
The Holy Spirit spoke = The God of Israel spoke
Sorry David, but I cannot take you seriously as a Bible scholar.
David
I don't think this will make any difference to you or the other Arians on this forum, but I'll post it anyway.
Compare
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
With
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Compare
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [/U]?
With
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Compare
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
With
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both.
The overwhelming Biblical evidence is that the Holy Spirit is God.
Could it be reference that the Holy Spirit is mentioned because the Holy Spirit is what inspired Jeremiah to write those words.
It is how God works.
Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 17 2007,10:04) I dont think anyone is really disagreeing here. Jesus is begotten of the father. He is unigue among the sons of God.
However, he certainly was an angel. He is the angel of the new covenant whom John the baptist another angel prepared the way for.
angel = messenger
Jesus is far above the seraphims, cherabims, powers, thrones, dominions, wheels…etc….
He is not of their substance. yet he is an angel.
Hi MS,
The Monogenes Son is above the angels who now serve him as Lord. He is unique in his origins and his glory. He was begotten of God alone[ps2] but they were created, as was all creation, through him. Their leaders are princes but he is the prince of princes[Dan]
Scripture never calls him an angel so you stand apart from scripture if you do. And if he is not shown to be an angel then he cannot be the angel of the Lord which clarifies that he never walked the earth before coming as a man.he was called an angel in at least 3 places that come to mind.
otherwise, I agree with everything else you are saying.
I just don't know why you can't see Jesus as a “Messenger”.
Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 17 2007,21:39) he was called an angel in at least 3 places that come to mind. otherwise, I agree with everything else you are saying.
I just don't know why you can't see Jesus as a “Messenger”.
Hi MS,
Quotes please.
You need to respect Christ.
He is far more than a messenger.I do respect Christ.
He is far more the an angel.
No disagreement here.The septuagint, my old testament and the apostles old testament. Older and far more accurate than the masoretic text, this being confirmed not only by the apostles but by the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The septaugint states the Messiah would be the angel of great council.
ISAIAH 9:6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger [aggelos] of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. (Brenton's LXX)
While you tell me I need to respect Christ, I in return tell you that you need to believe Christ when he said that He was written about by Moses and all the Prophets and to believe what they said.
Hi MS,
Do you need to go outside of the usual translations?
Having said he is more than an angel you still want to prove he is one??NH
Quote Hi MS,
Quotes please.
You need to respect Christ.
He is far more than a messenger.Yes NH. He is God. Your God.
JESUS' EQUALITY WITH GOD
Compare
MATTHEW 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and {their} ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with {their} eyes, and hear with {their} ears, and should understand with {their} heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
With
ISAIAH 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.
Compare
JEREMIAH 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.
With
MATTHEW 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, {thou} that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under {her} wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
Compare
JOHN 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: (38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
JOHN 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
With
ISAIAH 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (2) Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (3) And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, {is} the Lord of hosts: the whole earth {is} full of his glory. (4) And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) Then said I, Woe {is} me! for I am undone; because I {am} a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.<<<JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”}
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
TITUS 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; {RSV,NIV: “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}Compare
Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God , is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
With
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: {RSV, NIV: “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}
Compare
Psa 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
With
HEBREWS 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: {God the Father calls the Son “Lord.”REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Arche (“Beginning”) The Greek for “beginning” is arche, from which we get our word “architect.” Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is “origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle.” So the above verse is describing Jesus as the “architect,” or Creator of the Universe. In Rev 21:6 “arche” is applied to the Father, so it can't possibly mean “created being,” as Jehovah's Witnesses and other heretics maintain.Compare
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
With
MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.
JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
REVELATION 5:8 . . . the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Compare
REVELATION 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.With
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.Compare
1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:With
MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts
?MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .Compare
JEREMIAH 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
With
MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.Compare
DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
With
LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon {God}, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;(The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
Blasphemy can only be committed against God.Compare
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
With
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mar 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mar 1:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch(Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.Compare
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.With
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Hi CB,
You say
“Yes NH. He is God. Your God.JESUS' EQUALITY WITH GOD”
Make your mind up, either God, or equal with God!!
Or perhaps neither our God nor equal with our God?Hi,
Those who have obeyed the command to repent and be reborn of water can also be reborn of the Spirit. With Cornelius God showed that they were already washed clean by the Word.Lk11
13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?Jn 15
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.Hello Cult Buster,
I read through your verses that you claim to prove that Jesus is equal to God. I believe that the Bible tells us that Jesus is equal to the only begotten God and in fact He is the “only” begotten God. However, I do not believe that the only begotten God is equal to the Most High God-His Father. I think that the scriptures you quoted need to be revisited with a heart of softer clay possibly. For instance, I will start my discussion with you by dealing with the first batch of scriptures you quote:MATTHEW 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and {their} ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with {their} eyes, and hear with {their} ears, and should understand with {their} heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
With
ISAIAH 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
The first two scriptures acknowledge that a person or several people can see or hear something shown or told them but not really get the true understanding of what they see/hear.
With the third verse because it states that the Jews regarded Jesus as “making himself equal with God” then, well, do you think that what the Jews understood was understanding given to them by the Father? I think not or they would not have killed Jesus. So on one hand you admit that some people don't “get it” and then you give as proof of your beliefs that the Jews “got it”. Well, that is pretty shaky ground don't you think. If the Jews really understood with true enlightenment, they would not have later killed Jesus. In other words, what most Jews thought they “got” in understanding they really did not “get”. They are among those who see and hear but don't. So, I would advise you not to jump on their bandwagon.
Furthermore, what you don't seem to recognize is Jesus' response to this.
19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Did you just read that Jesus' response was that He can do nothing of Himself. That doesn't sound like someone claiming equality of the Most High God, does it? Not to me! Well, you can keep reading the chapter if you dare but Jesus continues to claim NOT to be the source of His life or even his authority to execute judgement and on and on. Read these verses:
26″For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
This would have been a good time to say that yes, I am equal to the Most High God but in fact, He did the opposite and claim that He was not the source of even His life.
I look forward to your response and maybe later to look into the other scriptures you quoted on Jan.22
God is good!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
