Understanding the Holy Spirit?

[Proclaimer]

I have read both your posts and I think that this is an interesting debate as I have wanted to know more about the Spirit of God.

I am trying to understand who or what the Holy Spirit is. I have no doubt that the Spirit is working in my life, but to understand the Spirit from scripture seems contradictory to me.

It seems from the verses in my previous post, that God is that Spirit, but I haven't drawn any conclusions yet. But when I read the next scripture, it seems to say otherwise

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

For example the scripture that says “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet:” seems to point to the Spirit being a person as does the references to blasheming the Spirit and lying to the Spirit etc.

If the Spirit is a person, the scriptures I quoted in my previous post seem to say that God is that Spirit, but other scriptures seem to indicate that the Spirit is another, but from God.

Is the Spirit of God, God's presence, his essence or perhaps the part of him that resides in creation as we know that God resides outside his own creation too and how do we explain the verses that seem to say he is another?

I have read both your posts and I can see merit in what you both say, but there must be an answer and I am truly seeking it.

Also, I have decided to change the title of this discussion to better fit the subject that is being debated here.

[John]

Hi t8,

I understand how you feel, I too would like to understand these things. I believe the trinity doctrine came to be because men of the past who searched these things out were lost for words to explain these things. The trinity doctrine almost seems to be a frustrated attempt to try and make scripture fit.

The way I have been looking at all of God’s work is that God loves us more then we can understand all at once. God created us knowing that we would stray just in the same way as when my wife and I had our children. We knew they would get into trouble and rebel but we still had them and love them. Sometimes parents are helpless in the bad choices their children make. In the end we hope that our wayward children would return to us because they know and remember the love we have for them.

Just like my children have a free will, so do God’s children. Just like I can’t do anything to force my child’s will to love, God can’t force our will to love.

When God looks at His children in creation He sees children who are sick and in need of help. I understand that there are people out there who are very wicked and take pleasure to hurting others, but this too stems for the sickness of separation from God’s love.

Adam was God’s first born and is a picture of mankind. We all have the same mindset that Adam had.

You may say that Adam was not born, he was created from the dust. I understand that but I don’t believe the true Adam is the dust but rather what God breathed into the dust is what birthed Adam. What God breathed into Adam was created on the sixth day of creation week. The dust of Adam or his literal body was formed outside the creation week.

Jesus is now God’s firstborn of all creation, not in the sense of biological birth but as a legal term being the firstborn in order to receive the inheritance. We see all throughout the bible people loosing their firstborn status because for their behavior for example, Jacob and Esu.

Jesus became the second Adam but was obedient even to death. God is using Jesus to restore and heal His children through the mind/knowledge/understanding that Jesus will give us.

The Holy Spirit is a mind that is in fellowship with the Father and is in the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father? The will of the Father is what He has been telling us from the beginning, to love.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,

2 John 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

The Spirit of Christ is given to all those who ask the Father.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

The Father will give us the Spirit of His Son who will become our comforter, our helper our counselor. Our comforter when we fall through temptation, our helper in teaching us how to love, our counselor in the choices that we are about to make, He will be like a big brother to a fatherless child.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

Jesus is the comforter, helper and counselor. He says He will not leave us comfortless He will come to us. He says He will be in us as He is in the Father. Jesus has the thoughts and will of His Father at heart.

Our heavenly Father will restore His children through Christ. Christ suffered in the flesh so He could be a minister to us in our weaknesses.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 2:17 And it was necessary for Jesus to be like us, his brothers, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God, a Priest who would be both merciful to us and faithful to God in dealing with the sins of the people.

What Jesus wants to do for us is He wants to teach us the way unto eternal life. He wants to make our spirit holy just as He is Holy and His Father is Holy. He wants to be there for us when we suffer temptation to encourage us and strengthen us, He knows what we suffer because He too suffered as we do.

The Spirit of Christ will dwell within us so that He can cleans our minds with His words, this is why He gave Himself.

Eph. 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

In the glorification of Jesus He became the helper, comforter, counselor which the Father uses to restore His children by sanctifying our minds/thoughts so we to can be without spot.

How do we spiritually understand what Jesus doing in us? Spiritually He is correcting the water and the blood. He first did it within Himself through learning obedience through the things that He suffered.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Jesus corrected the water and the blood within Himself and made them one.

Now, what is the water and the blood? The water is God’s word, in other words, God’s thoughts and will, we see this throughout scripture.

Blood is a picture of the life of the person the soul/character/inner man.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given you the blood to sprinkle upon the altar as an atonement for your souls; it is the blood that makes atonement, because it is the life.

Leviticus 17:14 for the blood is the life. That is why I told the people of Israel never to eat it, for the life of every bird and animal is its blood. Therefore, anyone who eats blood must be excommunicated.

Jesus came through the water and the blood.  In other words, mans character and God’s will. In Adam these two did not agree, they were separated. This is the sin nature the fact that we are not one with God’s will.

Jesus could have done His own will but He didn’t.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God gave His Son Jesus to correct this problem through Himself. Jesus’ Spirit will unit the life of man and the will of God for those who obey Him.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Through the death of Jesus, God’s will (water) and Jesus’ soul (blood) agree, the are one. Jesus’ death sealed this work and was risen to glory because of it.

God again gives us a picture of this when He foreordained the soldier to pierce Jesus’ side revealing the blood and water being one.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierce
d his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

God will give us the mind/thoughts/understanding of His Son because this is the hope of glory.

Colossians 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Christ in us the hope of glory.

It pleases the Father to bring us together with Him through His Son. Not that we are good enough to be one with the Father but Jesus was for us. We are accepted by the Father through Christ but have been loved and cared for by the Father from the foundation of the world.

To deny that Jesus has come in your flesh is antichrist or instead of Christ.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

Notice how it says, is come in the flesh. This is a present thing happening in those who receieve Him now.

I don’t believe it’s referring to Jesus coming in His flesh 2000 years ago. There are many historical facts that prove Jesus came in the flesh 2000 years ago and here are many people who believe He came 2000 years ago but they don’t believe He is their flesh, dwelling within them now, they are antichrist.

What will you do to win back your wayward children who have free wills?

Who can understand the love of God all at once?

Many blessing in Christ,
John

(Edited by John at 8:47 am on Feb. 17, 2004)

[ringo111]

What bible do you use??? cause you quotes are strange. And not in keeping with what is prooven through the scripture- it makes opposing comments- as T8 has revealed.

This is what the NIV says

1 John 4
2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Your doing what trinity people do- ignore the facts- to make a point.

Whoever accepts that jesus is the christ is born of god-

Nowhere did the disciples ever say-
"the holy spirit is jesus in your flesh"

But jesus said about the coming holy spirit-

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–

Jesus testified of another counselor- to be with them forever.

***********

As you see here is the holy spirit-
Jesus being filled like peter and stephen.

Luke 4:1
Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert,

Acts 4:8
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people!

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

*********************

John 16

13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

You see, the holy Spirit will bring glory to Jesus- Because he takes from what Jesus has- and will make it known.

**********************

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Jesus said the holy spirit will remind them of what Jesus said-

*He did not say that he himself will return as a holy spirit to remind them of what he himself said.

[ringo111]

T8 at the beggining- There were the angels of GoD- and Jesus – And I wonder how long the elders that are before his thrown in Revelation have been there for.
And the wheels covered with eyes?- and all kinds of other things.

So For GoD to be saying us- Is not that strange.

Because at other times- he refers to himself as I-
So he was including others in the convo- Not just himself ^_^

Doesn’t that make sense?

(Edited by ringo111 at 5:08 pm on Feb. 17, 2004)

[John]

Hi ringo111,

I use the KJV bible as my main study bible but I will also refer to other translations because if you understand human nature you will find that most of the bibles have the translators personal beliefs worked into the texts.

As far as the disciples not knowing these things, there are many things in which the disciples did not have a complete understanding of. We have the complete bible and the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach us. These things are plainly seen throughout scripture if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

You say that anyone who believes that Jesus has come in the flesh is born of God. I know many people who say and believe that Jesus has come in the flesh but they are far from being born of God, even demons believe Jesus has come in the flesh, they even believe Jesus is the Son of God.

You can believe the way you want but I’ll tell you, if you search these things out with a heart to know the deep things of God you too will see these eternal truths of God.

Many blessings to you,
John

(Edited by John at 7:04 pm on Feb. 17, 2004)

[ringo111]

John –

I ringo111 said

"Whoever accepts that jesus is the christ is born of god"

I will clarify-

Yes you are right the demons believe there is a jesus-
And know all about him- But are not obediant to his commands- If you really believed him- you would do what he says.
But they do not believe in him- as in they do not put they’re Hope- trust- in the words that god told jesus to say- And the same with people.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

*****************************************

*You claim to use the KJV-
But the KJV says opposite to the quotes you have been pulling out.

What are these other translations?

Also-

Please pray that god will show you his reality- but thats not all- Accompany it with action- Get a sponser child- For what you so you will reap- Whover lends to the poor lends to the lord.

Please be more generous in life- especially to gods people (tha poor) and he will grant you more knowledge-

I think you have been theorizing too much, without accompanied action- without doing the basic things that GoD wants for you-

Faith must be accompanied by action- Action that counts. Money is a basic thing you have , that god uses to exchange for spiritual treasure. GoD meets us where we’re at-

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

2 Corinthians 9:6
Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.

Proverbs 19:17
He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD , and he will reward him for what he has done.

*This is one main reason why GoD has been so ready to set me strait.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

*****************************

Man. Please ask god for his reality, to get rid of all wrong beliefs- and to put in his for you. Please- I do the same-
Please dont think your so infalable-
I know that god is the one who supplies knowledge- Thats why he made smart people and dumb people- so we can see that he is the supplier of knowledge & wisdom.

If you open not just your heart, but take action- God will reward you amazingly.

That is , as some understand the heart- For really- what you do shows your heart.

Keepin’ it Real

(Edited by ringo111 at 2:56 pm on Feb. 18, 2004)

[Ramblinrose]

Just for info – some writings on the subject:

http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/Holy_Spirit.html

http://www.studiesintheword.org/holy_spirit.htm

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=84

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=57

God Bless

[thehappyman]

Jesus and the Holy Spirit
Question is , Looking for scriptual understanding of the Spirit by Theostein.
Jesus had a special relationship with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and a spirit are not the same , for their are evil spirits also. But I would like to stay with the Holy Spirit and His relationship with all.
The coming of the Messiah empowered mightily by the Holy Spirit to carry out the will of the Father and to bring full salvation to all nations. In order to carry out this plan of salvation the Messiah must also baptize and annoint His followers in the Holy Spirit. This is an essential requirement in the ongoing work of redemption.
[ Is.11:2 ].states; and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of fear of the Lord.
When Jesus read the scripture Is.61:1-2 in the church at Nazareth, He said " Today is this scipture fulfilled in your ears" Read [Luke 4:14-21]. He was filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus has came into this world by a miraculous deed of God. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. [Matt1:18,23; Luke 1:17]. Because of this deed Jesus was made Holy [Luke 1:35] free from all sin. This made Jesus worthy to take the guilt of our sins on Himself and to make atonement. [Without a perfect , sinless Savior, we could not experience redemption]. When Jesus was baptized afterwards He was full of the Holy Ghost.[Luke 4:1] In Acts 1:8 giving the power to all for the power of the ministry.
Right afterwards He was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil, and Jesus was victorious because of being filled with the Holy Spirit.[Ghost].
(more to come)
I pray that this has enlightened your hearts.

[Ramblinrose]

Another site that you may find interesting in your search.

http://www2.bibelcenter.de/bibliothek/bland/1god1.html

Shalom

[Proclaimer]

I am reading the part about the Holy Spirit or holy spirit located here.

The writer suggests that the article 'the' is never present so it is really saying with holy breath/spirit, filled with holy breath etc.

If this is so, then surely it is significant. We see the same thing in John 1:1 where the 'Word was god' is not preceeded with an article so it can be used as an adjective rather than a noun.

I will read on and give my opinion in the next post.

[Proclaimer]

To John,

I thank you for your posts and I am still searching this out. I think the following is an interesting quote:

Christ… the Power of God, and the Spirit of God, as the Word, the Reason, the Wisdom, and the Son of God.

I offer these quotes from Tertullian who wrote in the early 200's.

The object of our worship is the One God, He who by His commanding Word, His arranging Wisdom, His Mighty Power, brought forth out of nothing the entire substance of our world, with all its array of elements, bodies, spirits, for the glory of His majesty, whence also the Greeks have given it the name of kosmos. (Apology, 17).

For from the first He sent messengers into the world, men whose spotless righteousness made them worthy to know the Most High, and to reveal Him… that they might proclaimThere is one God only who made all things. (Apology, 18).

Accordingly, he appeared among us, whose coming to renew and illuminate man's nature was foreproclaimed by God, mean Christ, the Son of God. And so the Supreme Head and Master of this grace and discipline, the Enlightener and Trainer of humanity, God's own Son, was announced among us. (Apology, 21).

Christ… the Power of God, and the Spirit of God, as the Word, the Reason, the Wisdom, and the Son of God. (Apology, 23).

We have already declared that God made the world, and all which it contains, by His Word, and Reason, and Power. It is abundantly plain that your philosophers, too, regard the Logos, that is, the Word and Reason, as the Creator of the universe…And we, in like manner, hold that the Word, and Reason, and Power, by which we have said God made all, have spirit as their proper and essential substratum, in which the Word has inbeing to give forth utterances, and reason abides to dispose and arrange, and power is over all to execute. We have been taught that he proceeds forth from God, and in that procession he is generated [ begotten], so that he is the Son of God, and is called “God” from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass, the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun–there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is spirit of the Spirit, and god of the God, as light of Light is kindled. The material matrix remains entire and unimpaired, though you derive from it any number of shoots possessed of its qualities; so, too, that which has come forth out of God is at once “God” and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as he is Spirit of the Spirit and God of the God, He is made second in manner of existence, in position, not in nature, and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in his birth God and man united. Apology, 21).

These all start with the same principles of the faith, so far as relates to the One Only God the Creator and His Christ. (Against Marcion, IV, 2).

The Christ of the Creator had to be called a Nazarene according to prophecy. (Against Marcion, IV, 8).

The Son of the Creator, that he might drive them [demons] out, not indeed by his own power, but by the authority of the Creator… If, therefore, neither he [the Son of the Creator] had preached, nor they had known, any other God but the Creator, he was announcing the Kingdom of that God whom he knew to be the only God known to those who were listening to him. (Against Marcion, IV, 8).

Therefore Christ belonged to John, and John to Christ, while both belonged to the Creator. (Against Marcion, IV, 11).

For it was he who used to speak in the prophets, the Word, the Creator's Son. (Against Marcion, IV, 13).

The apostle can hardly be thought to have ranked the Creator among those who are called gods, without being so, since, even if they had been gods, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” Now, from whom do all things come to us, but from Him to whom all things belong? And pray tell, what things are these? You have them in a preceding part of the letter, “All things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come.” He makes the Creator, then the God of all things, from whom proceed both the world and life and death, which. cannot possibly belong to the other god. From Him, therefore, among those “all things” comes also Christ. (Against Marcion, Book V, 7).

We, however, as we indeed always have done and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete [the Comforter], who leads men indeed into all truth, believe that there is One God Alone, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it is called, that this One God Alone also has a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the virgin, and to have been born of her, being both human and deity, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ, we believe him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that he will come to judge the living and the dead, who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel…. All are of One, by unity of substance, while the mystery of the dispensation is still kept, which distributes the unity into a trinity, placing in their order the three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: three, however, not in condition, but in degree, not in substance, but in form, not in power, but in aspect, yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. (Against Praxeas, 2).

For before all things God was Alone, being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was Alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He Alone, for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him, and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call Logos, by which term we also designate Word…that even then before the creation of the universe God was not alone, since He had within Himself both Reason, and, inherent in Reason, His Word, which He made second to Himself by arousing it within Himself. (Against Praxeas, 6).

Thus does He make him equal to Him. For by proceeding from Himself, he became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things, and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart…. He became also the Son of God, and was begotten when he proceeded forth from Him…. whatever, therefore, was the substance of the Word that I designate a person, I claim for it the name of Son, and while I recognize the Son, I assert his distinction as second to the Father. (Against Praxeas, 7).

For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as he himself confesses, “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm his inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and he who is begotten is another. He, too, who
sends is one, and he who is sent is another, and He, again, who makes is one, and he through whom the thing is made is another. (Against Praxeas, 9).

[Proclaimer]

I also offer these words from Tatian (165 A.D.)

God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him. I myself, for instance, speak [words], and you hear, yet, certainly, I who converse do not become destitute of my word, by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Word begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Word, being begotten again, and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God, it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone (Address to the Greeks, 5).

For the heavenly Word, Spirit emanating from the Father and a Word of the Word-Power, in imitation of the Father who begat him made man an image of immortality, so that, as incorruption is with God, in like manner, man, sharing in a part of God, might have the immortal principle also. The Word, too, before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels. (Address to the Greeks, 7).

[Surgeon83]

The subject of the Holy Spirit can often get quite touchy amongst people. I tend to believe that there is a trinity and that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are different persons. Jesus explained it many times by referring to the Holy Spirit as “he” and the “comforter” designating a separateness. Also, Jesus says that sins against the Father and of the Son will be forgiven, but total blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven; further defining a belief, amongst countless other scriptures, in a triune God, but always one God.
As far as experiencing the presence and anointing of the Holy Spirit I had often been lacking in such an anointing; perhaps due to doubt or disbelief in the tongues and the like. After experiencing it for myself I have since changed my mind and have come to a new realization of the wonderful working power of God's Spirit. Many may not believe in the anointing of the Holy Spirit; my only reply now is that they are missing out on something indescribable. After reading Acts and pretty much the whole Bible looking for accounts of the Holy Spirit I have found no evidence where his Spirit has stopped working. I see no reason to believe that what happened to the 120 in the upper room should have no bearing or reality in our modern church.
Perhaps a problem with many churches today is that they have become dry and dead. People have made it into a social club where lapel pins and insignias have replaced the blood and Gospel of Jesus. I think what today's modern church needs is a good dose of the Holy Spirit to quicken sinners to repentance and bring doubters and unbelievers to the realization as I had that God is real and his presence and Spirit are alive today as it was with the prophets.
I believe the next great revival will be done through the young people. It says in Joel that in the last days the Lord will pour out his Spirit upon all flesh. I know now that in the early days of this past century men and women would have to pray and diligently seek God for years before being filled with the Spirit. While experiencing it for myself I noticed in the church service that many kids in gangs and many with obvious problems were also weeping uncontrolably on their knees in the utterance of the Holy Spirit. God is literally pouring out his Spirit as never before.
I think that the main problem many atheists and the like had with the Passion wasn't necessarily Mel Gibson or antisemitism; it was the quickening power of the Holy Spirit. That's why many people have been saved through the film; why alot of people have made right the wrongs in their lives. Ultimately it is up to us to recieve his presence and anointing of the Spirit. That's why some churches are on fire for God and yet others are cold and lifeless. By rejecting doctrinally the working power of the Holy Spirit they have prevented him from becoming apart of the worship.
I just pray that those who still disbelieve the existence of God or the spirit world could experience a touch of the Holy Spirit; I am quite sure that they would quickly come to the realization of the truth.

[NickHassan]

Hi John,
Nicely written but you seem to write as if ALL men are children of God. Is that what you believe? Lots of people do believe that natural birth makes God our Father. But that belief is not true and will only lead to heartache and frustration. Jesus explained that we must be born again into the family of God. only then can we come into His presence in prayer without incurring His wrath.We must be covered with the garment of the Son and then all of his blessings are our by right and we become sons too of God and brothers of Jesus. Do you agree?
” But as many as received Him to them He gave the RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD..”

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
I have read the doctrines of the Christadelpians and there is so much that is right there.
But you seem to sell yourselves short as far as the teh Holy Spirit is concerned and say the gift has been withdrawn till the Millenial Kingdom. When did God say He would withdraw it in the Word?
Instead in Acts 2,37 it says
“When they heard this they were deeply shaken .They asked Peter and the other apostles ” What are we to to do brothers?”
Peter answered” You must reform and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ , that your sins may be forgiven. THEN YOU WILL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. IT WAS TO YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN THAT THE PROMISE WAS MADE , AND TO ALL THOSE STILL FAR OFF WHOM THE LORD OUR GOD CALLS”

Did God become your Father when you were baptised into Jesus. Well Jesus said in Lk 11
” If you with all your sins ,know how to give your children good things , how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit TO THOSE WHO ASK HIM”

James said you do not have because you do not ask.

Paul said in Rom 8
“If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to Christ”

Jesus said in Acts 1 “WAIT ,rather, for the FULLNESS OF MY FATHER'S PROMISE,of which you have heard me speak..”

I can do all things THROUGH HIM WHO STRENGTHENS ME.

Taste and see that the Lord is good.You cannot do it in your own strength.

[Proclaimer]

God wants to dwell in all of his creation, but he cannot dwell in sinful vessels. But the plan of God is to put all things under the feet of his son and then when all enemies have been conquered, the son will give back the kingdom to his Father, so that God can dwell in all. So to say that the Spirit has been withdrawn is to truly not understand the plan of God.

Do you not know that when his Spirit is in you it is a deposit for your eternal life. It is the down payment of which you only need to remain to receive life eternal. God can only dwell inside redeemed and pure vessels. If one believes not that God can dwell in him, then he has sin and ignorance. For all that is not of faith is sin and God longs to dwell in his people.

[Human]

I just wanted to comment that there are several meanings of the word “spirit” in the Bible – the context shows that it is not always the same and we must be careful about what we understand by “spirit” in each case.

Here are some of the meanings:

1) spiritual creatures not visible to human eye, such as angels, demons, God is also a spirit
2) life force of all living God's creations – btw in this case it is always singular and humans and animals have the same spirit – Ecclesiastes 3:19 (depends on your Bible translation but the original text has the same word that is in other places translated as “spirit”)
3) holy spirit of God that can fill people, give strength, give understanding. An interesting scripture is 2 Kings 2:9 where Elisha asked Elijah to give hime twice the spirit that Elijah had. Of course, this does not mean that Elijah had to incarnate into Elisha. It simply meant that Elisha wanted to have twice as much God's given force – the holy spirit to perform miracles etc. There is no hint of the holy spirit being a person there. Yes, there are scriptures that give person's attributes to the holy spirit, but, as it was mentioned in some previous posts, similar attributes are also applied to death, wisdom, sin etc.

There are 3 or 4 additional meanings of the word “spirit”, but imho they are not so relevant to this discussion.

In the conclusion, I just wanted to say that Bible explains itself and often the context of a scripture tells us more about it. Sometimes another place in the Bible can give more light about a particular part of a scripture. We cannot build a doctrine just by taking several verses from the Bible without checking how it fits in the big picture. There are no contradictions in Bible. If you think you see a contradiction, that means that you just have misinterpretated or overlooked something and you must study both contradicting places in more detail.

[NickHassan]

Good stuff human,
Angels may be visible and clearly some men have seen “spirits' or “ghosts' for them to think Yeshua was one on two occasions.
Eccles is not quite so clear about the fate of men and animals though.
3.18f
“I said to myself concerning the sons of men
'God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts'
For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other;indeed they all have the same breath, and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.
All go to the same place. All came from the dust and will return to the dust.
21 Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?

So man and animals are physically alike. Without the breath of God they are corpses. The breath of God gives life and nature to man.The natural spirit of natural man returns to God but not so that of the animal?

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The Christadelphians believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn. No such statement appears in the bible. That denies Mk 16.17f , Acts 2.39, and 1 Cor 12 and 13 and it disempowers the church in it's struggle against the powers of Satan[Eph 6.12-17].

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2005,18:26)

Hi cubes, The Christadelphians believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been withdrawn. No such statement appears in the bible. That denies Mk 16.17f , Acts 2.39, and 1 Cor 12 and 13 and it disempowers the church in it's struggle against the powers of Satan[Eph 6.12-17].

I will testify that the holy spirit is present.  I have to say that our sin limits him to a great extent, but God is merciful who has not abandoned us completely.

Back in the 1990s, a good friend of mine worked for the UN and was posted in IRAQ as part of a team to restore their communication systems that had been largely destroyed in the war [Desert Storm].  This friend though was headquartered in Israel, so from time to time, went back home.  On one such occasion, when he was returning from Israel to Iraq, he encountered unusual and frustrating problems with regards to transportation, and he couldn't understand why.  He said it was enough to make him gripe, which is usually out of character for him.  Not being let on the plane and exhausting all other options, he eventually ended up driving over a 500 mile distance to get back to Iraq.

Well, from my end of the story, I was awakened very early in the morning by an urgent phone call from this guy's nephew who at the time was a student at a U.S. university.  He told me how he'd had a very terrible dream concerning his uncle and if I would seriously join him in interceding on his uncle's behalf.  He said that he'd also contacted one chap (his uncle's best friend) in Canada about the same thing.  It sounded so serious that I did pray throughout the day.  That night I was at a 'small group' meeting in church and before the meeting closed, I put forth the prayer request and we prayed.

I sought to unsuccessfully contact my friend by phone but he eventually called me within the next 48 hours.  Told me the story in the second paragraph.  Said that he arrived at work safely but one of his co-workers nearly passed out from fear when he'd handed him a bottle of wine that was sent by the guy's wife.  The wine had been mistakenly wrapped in Israeli newspager, which at the time was a capital offense, in that the newspaper linked him to Israel.  One could be shot on the spot for being a “spy” or collaborator with the enemy.  That was the time of SCUD missiles.  All gravely appreciated the sense of danger and how close my friend came, and the miraculous delivery from harm.

He explained that had he not missed his flight, his luggage would have certainly been searched and his arrest would have been certain, at the very least.  This guy is a faithful christian.  He himself was miraculously healed of Sickle Cells Anemia many years ago.  I remember when he used to be so sick he couldn't come out and play when we were kids.  He has been completely healed for decades now and has been totally medication free.

There was no doubt in our minds that the Lord orchestrated everything for good on behalf of my friend and we greatly rejoiced.  

That I believe is a testimony of the Holy Spirit in our midst, and the gifts in operation.

[Author]

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