Understanding Jesus as God

[Proclaimer]

Is 1:18, it is a mystery to what we will become, but we will be like him.

[Is 1:18]

Our Father in heaven is a God being
Gabriel and Michael are angelic beings
You and I are human beings

t8, you can put this issue (and the whole trinity debate, for that matter) to bed right now by answering consisely this one question:

What being is Jesus?
(if you answer a human being, like us, then please also tell me what he was before His incarnation).

[Proclaimer]

Yeshua is divine. His nature was and is divinity. His life came from God. Yeshua is the begotten of God. He was not derived from anyone or anything except God his Father.

He then emptied himself and took on another nature, flesh. He became a man. Yeshua was and is now a divine being. The son, and now also the firstborn from the dead.

BTW God is Spirit.

[Is 1:18]

No, I didn't think you could. At least trinitarians have an answer to this simple question. BTW demons are spirits too, but that is not what their being is.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is,
Do you really believe Jesus is equal to God?

Despite the fact that he derived from God,
was sent by God as a servant,
obeyed God,
prayed to God and
worshipped God.

Do you still really believe he is equal to God?
Do you not accept God is the ultimate authority?
That is very basic faith.

Who has deceived you and taken you onto this strange path away from faith, my dear brother.
Can you still not recognise how far you have moved from simple truth?

[NickHassan]

ps
If you say

Jesus is Yahweh
then how can you also say
Jesus is equal to Yahweh?

Surely the two statement exclude one another??

And both are wrong.

Honestly it sometimes seems that you will agree with anyone who does not agree with us. What does that say?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 26 2005,02:57)

No, I didn't think you could. At least trinitarians have an answer to this simple question. BTW demons are spirits too, but that is not what their being is.

To Is 1:18,

Why can't you accept the testimony in scripture. Yeshua is the son and we are sons. We are men and so Christ became a man. But we will be like Christ. We will partake of another nature than that of man/flesh. We will partake of the divine nature.

As it is written:

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

You say that “At least trinitarians have an answer to this simple question”. But the question is not that simple and just because Trinitarian doctrine perhaps provides an answer, it doesn't mean that it is the correct answer. You cannot judge truthfully using this carnal method. Take a look at the following scripture:

I John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

So you say that Trinitarians have the answer and yet John the Apostle said that it hasn't yet appeared to what we will become. So we can only go with what scripture reveals and the following scriptures speak on this subject. I refuse to go further than scripture. Man-made philosophy cannot reveal the secret things of God, so I am not interested in it.

1 John 3:1
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are.

Psalm 17:15
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy Likeness.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of Corruptible Seed, but of Incorruptible (Seed), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are men are we not? Yet we are made in the image of God. So is God a man. Of course not. The seed that is in us will produde after it's kind. We will be like Christ and he is like God.

Jesus is the firstborn among many. The Greek word for firstborn is protokos. Proto-kos means Proto-type. You make a prototype before you make copies. We are the copies. We are like God. We are images.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Corinthians 15:41-42
There is one Glory of the Sun, and another Glory of the Moon, and another Glory of the Stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

John 17:22
And the Glory which thou gavest me I have given Them; that They may be one, even as We are one:

This is what I teach and what I believe. I leave man-made philosophies to the carnal. Do you accept these scriptures with joy? Or will you move on and try and find fault with me by having another stab?

[Is 1:18]

Hi t8,
It occurred to me today that we have been debating the deity of Jesus Christ for quite some time now, and we have certainly covered the “Who is Jesus” angle in quite some detail. But we have basically neglected the issue of What Jesus is, or specifically – What kind of being is Jesus? I think this is an important fact to establish, don't you? It certainly has a bearing on the Father/Son equality issue.

Here is my question again:

Quote

Our Father in heaven is a God being Gabriel and Michael are angelic beings You and I are human beings But, What being is Jesus?

I am not looking for a dissertation, in fact just one word (a noun to be precise) will suffice. To be even more specific, I need this word:

Jesus is a [you fill in the gap] being.

When I have this single word, we will then have a foundation (or perhaps a corner stone?) to properly debate matters of equality, authority etc between Jesus Christ and the Father. I do need your frame of reference though, so I can properly understand where you are coming from. This seems an entirely logical starting point and not an unfair thing to ask of you at all. BTW, I wont accept 'divine' as a reasonable answer because it is too ambiguous, and by your own reasoning even the creation will partake in the divine. So if you'll be kind enough to provide the one word I need from you, that would be great.

Yours in Christ
Is 1:18

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 26 2005,06:07)

Q) Jesus is a [you fill in the gap] being.

I believe that Jesus is the son of God. He was begotten of God. He is the firstborn of all creation. I even think that he may have been Wisdom. Before creation I am not sure what he would have looked like. Perhaps as the Logos he was just thought with God, or a spirit. I do not know. Perhaps this is why only Yeshua has seen God.

Why don't you fill it in Is 1:18. You asked the question. I thought divine would be a good answer, but that seems not good enough for you. But if I look at the descriptions in Revelation, he has legs like glowing iron and hair as white as snow. So go ahead you tell me. What do you think?

I do however think that you are not really interested in the truth. I hope I am wrong with that assumption. It seems that you just want to find some fault in my teaching so you can feel better about yourself and your Trinitarian belief.

I only debate with you to show the readers how fallible the Trinitarian doctrine is. So for that purpose you are useful. But as a discovery process, I would prefer to hook up with spiritually minded people who love the truth. I am not trying to be nasty, rather truthful. If you were with me, you wouldn't come against me all the time. Unity in truth does not encompass trying to find fault with scripture and the commandments, rather promoting the truth. We are suppose to be the light of the world after all and a light should shine. I love the truth and seek it every day. We should seek wisdom more than gold. I can easily seek the truth with people who love the truth. But those who have been indoctrinated, I can only teach foundational stuff in the hope that they see what foundation we are suppose to be building on.

Also I think that forcing me or anyone to fill in a gap, can lead one to search outside scripture if scripture doesn't provide that exact answer. I do not want to do that. If I did, then would I be any better than those that devised the Trinity doctrine?

You know what I believe I have made it very clear. I have many posts that you can refer to. If you wish to find fault in my teaching then show me why those scriptures I quote are not saying that there is one God, the Father. Show me where it says that God is a Trinity. Or that God is made up of 3 people. If that were the case then why is it not mentioned even once. Don't you find that even just a little weird?

It would truly give me joy if you were able to reason and if you loved the truth. But all I have seen from you is condemnation because I do not follow your creed. The scriptures I have given you do not seem to be enough. But scripture is what I give you. Outside of that I might offer an opinion, but that is all it is.

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2005,06:07)

Hi t8, It occurred to me today that we have been debating the deity of Jesus Christ for quite some time now, and we have certainly covered the “Who is Jesus” angle in quite some detail. But we have basically neglected the issue of What Jesus is, or specifically – What kind of being is Jesus? I think this is an important fact to establish, don't you? It certainly has a bearing on the Father/Son equality issue. Here is my question again: Quote Our Father in heaven is a God being Gabriel and Michael are angelic beings You and I are human beings But, What being is Jesus? I am not looking for a dissertation, in fact just one word (a noun to be precise) will suffice. To be even more specific, I need this word: Jesus is a [you fill in the gap] being.

Good question and good point.  I think Paul addresses this issue most succintly:

1 Corinthians 15:
“45And so it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.”

Reread that last verse very carefully.  Reread it again:

“…the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.”

In short, to fill in the blank for you, “Jesus” is a human being who became a life giving spirit.

Here's another “cornerstone” question:

Can a spirit being also be a natural being? (Hint: Reread the verses above for Paul's answer.)

[NickHassan]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2005,17:41)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2005,06:07) Hi t8, It occurred to me today that we have been debating the deity of Jesus Christ for quite some time now, and we have certainly covered the “Who is Jesus” angle in quite some detail. But we have basically neglected the issue of What Jesus is, or specifically – What kind of being is Jesus? I think this is an important fact to establish, don't you? It certainly has a bearing on the Father/Son equality issue. Here is my question again: Quote Our Father in heaven is a God being Gabriel and Michael are angelic beings You and I are human beings But, What being is Jesus? I am not looking for a dissertation, in fact just one word (a noun to be precise) will suffice. To be even more specific, I need this word: Jesus is a [you fill in the gap] being. Good question and good point.  I think Paul addresses this issue most succintly: 1 Corinthians 15: “45And so it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.” Reread that last verse very carefully.  Reread it again: “…the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.” In short, to fill in the blank for you, “Jesus” is a human being who became a life giving spirit. Here's another “cornerstone” question: Can a spirit being also be a natural being? (Hint: Reread the verses above for Paul's answer.)

Hi WIT,
Scripture is talking here abou two “ADAMS”. Adam was a man ONLY and his existence began with his creation as a man.

Now that limits the discussion to beings from a human perspective. You seem to imply that it proves Jesus was ONLY a man and was not in the beginning with the Father. Not so.

Certainly Jesus is a man. He is Son of Man. He is called in scripture “the man Jesus Christ”. But he is not only man. He is not ONLY the second Adam, made man in the womb of Mary as the second Adam.

He can be discussed from his human or his godly perspective an 1 Cor 15 speaks of him only from his human perspective whereas Jn 1. 1Jn1, Hebrews 1-2 speaks of the Son of God from his godly origins.

1 Jn 4.2 says Jesus Christ “came in the flesh” not “was the flesh”. This scripture calls him by his human name and yet says he partook of flesh. It surely tells us he existed in some another form before he was sent to “come in the flesh”. This is the antichrist test-do you pass it?

You are deceived dear friend on this matter.

[WhatIsTrue]

Nick,

Before you start trying to judge whether or not a man is deceived, why don't you try answering Is1:18's question?  I have given my answer.  You may reject it if you wish.  He has given his answer which you also may reject.  But rather than dodging the question, why don't you just answer it?  It is truly a “cornerstone” issue.  Do you have an answer?

By the way, after you answer that question, answer this one too:

How many gods do you have over you?

For me there is one God… .  How about you?

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
One God, the God of Jesus in whom I live.
What about you?
What about my question?

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
Jesus is the unique and only begotten Son of God. He had divine nature as the greatest of the gods of Ps 97. As the firstborn son he was begotten before the other gods of Job 1,2 and 38. I know you struggle with this concept because when you see the word 'god' you assume these are whom we should worship and you rightly say for us there is one God we should worship.

But Jesus is not worshipped by us in him as that would be silly. He is the head of his body and we honour,bow down to serve him as the hand serves the head.

[WhatIsTrue]

Nick wrote:

Quote

1 Jn 4.2 says Jesus Christ “came in the flesh” not “was the flesh”. This scripture calls him by his human name and yet says he partook of flesh. It surely tells us he existed in some another form before he was sent to “come in the flesh”. This is the antichrist test-do you pass it?

Yes, Nick, I pass the test.  I believe that Yeshua was a flesh and blood human being who became a life giving spirit, unlike the gnostics who believed that Yeshua was only a spirit being.  (Look up the history: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html  That's what this verse is about.)

You wrote:

Quote

Hi WIT, One God, the God of Jesus in whom I live.

You either misunderstand the question or you are intentionally being deceitful.  You have stated unambiguously in the past that Yehsua is God and that Yahweh is God, therefore for you there are two gods.  If you wish to deny this, then you need to clarify which of the two for you is not God.  Yeshua or Yahweh?

By the way…

You wrote:

Quote

But Jesus is not worshipped by us in him as that would be silly. He is the head of his body and we honour,bow down to serve him as the hand serves the head.

Dictionary says:

Quote

Main Entry: 2worship Function: verb Inflected Form(s): -shiped or -shipped; -ship·ing or -ship·ping transitive senses 1 : to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power 2 : to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion intransitive senses : to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship synonym see REVERE

You contradict yourself in the space of two sentences.

[NickHassan]

Hi WIT,
True to form you cannot grasp the difference between relating to God and Jesus. I would have expected nothing different from you. You also cannot grasp he had divine nature but became as a servant and a man. We have been down these roads before but you show that you have not grown further in knowledge in this area. I am sorry that the words I use do not please you but should I always couch them in terms of your somewhat oblique understanding? I prefer the simple truth.

Who are the sons of God in Job 1,2,38. Were they before the Son of God and thus not created though him. Is the Son of God neither the firstborn nor uniquely derived fromm the Father in the beginning?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (t8 @ April 25 2005,11:36)

Why don't you fill it in Is 1:18. You asked the question.

Sure t8, no problem. My answer:

Jesus is a God being.

I have reached this conclusion by this principle: Kind begets like kind, and:

These scriptures (a synopsis, not an exhaustive list and in no particular order):
1. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (joh 1:1)

2. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (joh 1:18)

3.   8 But of the Son He [The Father] says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9″YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” (Heb 1:8)

4.  6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, (Isa 9:6, 7)

5. 12“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Rev 22:12, 13 NIV)

6. 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Ti 2:13, 14)

7. 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (joh 20, 27, 28)

OK t8, I have done what you asked and provided you with an answer to my question. Before you take me to task on any of my points can I ask that you please first supply me with the one word I need from you. This is only fair. If Jesus is not a God being, then what kind of being is He?

Rudy, I would also be interested in your answer and reasoning.

(I edited a word on line 3 for clarity)

[Rudy]

You are correct Is 1:18,

What I've seen missed in understanding is Christ's identity Pre & Post Incarnation.  

The scriptures teach specifically that The Word of God was with God and was God, took on flesh becoming Yeshua, the Son of God.  Prior to His incarnation, The Word of God was ONE with God in the Beginning and the name of the ONE and ONLY God is Yahweh.  Pre-incarnate Christ is one with Yahweh, the Word of Yahweh!

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Current position of the Resurrected Christ – John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

Hebrews 11:3 – Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb 1:1 In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Col 1:13 …hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

God now is a Father, having “begotten an ONLY Son”, all others were created, not begotten, angels in the Old Testament were called sons of God but God was NOT their Father, he was their Creator and The Word of God was their, and our, creator with God.

The Word of God chose to relinquish His position and be born of a virgin that He could as Yeshua, the ONLY “BEGOTTEN” Son of Yahweh, who is now a Father at Christ's birth, redeem us (fallen mankind) from sin, becoming our High Priest and First-Born of many “adopted” or “grafted-in” children.

Phil 2:4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped(Gr.=harpagamos), 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

W.E. Vines dictionary on “Prize” (Gr.=harpagamos):

(2) The Passive sense gives a different meaning to the passage: 'Who though He was subsisting in the essential form of God, yet did not regard His being on an equality of glory and majesty with God as a prize and a treasure to be held fast, but emptied himself thereof.”

John 8:55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, 15 as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.”

John 10:24 So the Jews gathered round him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness to me; 26 but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

As a Son He humbled Himself and became obedient as a Son to His Father.  To do otherwise would be to sin, it had to be done, and He chose to do it for you and me!

Exodus 20:12 – Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

As a Son, He ALWAYS honoured The Father Yahweh, ALWAYS, but He held His equality and unity with the Father and not once denied that, being the express image of the Father!

At His resurrection He took back upon Himself the “Glory” He laid down.

John 17:5 – And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Only God could redeem us to Himself, and that is the Good News, The Word, became flesh (of His own choosing), begotten by Yahweh through Mary, was obedient to death, redeemed us back to Yahweh, at resurrection took back His glory, sat down at the Right Hand of the Father.

2 Corinthians 5:19 – that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

This entire plan was laid before the foundation of the world.  God the Word chose to lay down His glory and take our punishment for sin, death.

Revelation 13:8 – And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[Is 1:18]

Amen Rudy, well said.

[NickHassan]

Sorry,

These mystical notions may satify you Rudy but they do not hold water in my view. How can an image also be the original being he is an image of. Another mystery I suppose.

I must have missed that one in scripture about equality. How come He seems to be instead a submissive servant?

Where did Jesus claim equality with the Father?

[Author]

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