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Hi kenrch,
Is there an example in Acts of anyone waiting;
A year?
A month?
A week?
A day?
An hour?Acts 22.16
“AND NOW WHY DO YOU DELAY?
Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sins calling on his name”I read this scripture today and thought I might add it. It is in context to the discussion but perhaps not in context to the latest posts.
Notice the word 'might'.
Romans 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.Great point t8. As often as I have read that, I have never pondered on the word might. It makes sense though, at least for those who do not believe in the once saved, always saved doctrine.
Something else to point out is Simon the sorcerer. When he tried to buy the ability to baptize men in the Holy Spirit from the apostles. Even though he had been saved, his heart had become quickly corrupted and his salvation hung in the balance.
I think of the parable of the seeds that our Lord told and how each landed on different types of soil. I believe this was symbolic of salvation. Many get saved, but not many stay saved.
Matthew 13 KJV
1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 21 2006,05:58) Hi kenrch,
Is there an example in Acts of anyone waiting;
A year?
A month?
A week?
A day?
An hour?Acts 22.16
“AND NOW WHY DO YOU DELAY?
Arise and be baptised, and wash away your sins calling on his name”
Were they dead
Kenrch you wrote:
“Semmy,
Are you saying that if a person who gives his heart to Christ and CANNOT get baptized through no fault of his own then he is doomed?”What? Where did you see me writing or expressing that opinion? In fact the last consensus on the subject was that only God knows the person's heart and intentions. I've already weighed in with what I thought so I'm not going to repeat myself. My point is that just that. We don't know our own hearts so we should not try to assume we know our brother's.
Listen, I see Christ in you as well but that doesn't mean that I'm automatically going to agree with every word that comes out of your mouth. Come on!
Semmy
Quote (seminarian @ July 22 2006,02:52) Kenrch you wrote: “Semmy,
Are you saying that if a person who gives his heart to Christ and CANNOT get baptized through no fault of his own then he is doomed?”What? Where did you see me writing or expressing that opinion? In fact the last consensus on the subject was that only God knows the person's heart and intentions. I've already weighed in with what I thought so I'm not going to repeat myself. My point is that just that. We don't know our own hearts so we should not try to assume we know our brother's.
Listen, I see Christ in you as well but that doesn't mean that I'm automatically going to agree with every word that comes out of your mouth. Come on!
Semmy
The reason I asked is that you already have. You agreed that with the heart the person is saved.Did you change your mind?
Hi kenrch,
This is waht Paul said to the baptised Romas in Christ.Rom 10. 8-10
“8But what does it say? “(A)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,9that (B)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and ©believe in your heart that (D)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. “
Their hearts had already received the seed of Christ. Yet Paul was appealing to those who already had that seed to let faith nourish it in their hearts. The soil had to let that seed grow and flourish and become Christ in them so like Paul they could say:
“It is no longer I that liveth, but Christ that liveth in me”
But even then it does not say faith alone results in salvation but the confession of that nurtured faith.
Jesus rejoiced when Peter made his confession about him and declared him ready to be laid down as a suitable stone in the foundation of the New Jerusalem.
Ken,
I think we're talking about two different things here. I'm not sure what your point is but I think I was pretty clear in saying that only GOD knows the heart and He is the ultimate judge through Christ.
As a Biblical example, I mentioned salvation came to the thief on the cross alongside Christ and there was no water there either. People who became Jesus' disciples were being baptised by John so I believe it was a requirement even then. I also quoted Romans 10:9 as the Biblical confession of faith unto salvation A LONG TIME AGO.
Read my post again. I was speaking of you saying Nick didn't have Christ in his heart which is just plain wrong and I stand by that. Paul says we can not even discern our OWN motives so I think it very risky to try to say we know our brother's.
Let's move on because this is getting a little wierd already.
Best,
Semmy
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 22 2006,22:21) Hi kenrch,
This is waht Paul said to the baptised Romas in Christ.Rom 10. 8-10
“8But what does it say? “(A)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,9that (B)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and ©believe in your heart that (D)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. “
Their hearts had already received the seed of Christ. Yet Paul was appealing to those who already had that seed to let faith nourish it in their hearts. The soil had to let that seed grow and flourish and become Christ in them so like Paul they could say:
“It is no longer I that liveth, but Christ that liveth in me”
But even then it does not say faith alone results in salvation but the confession of that nurtured faith.
Jesus rejoiced when Peter made his confession about him and declared him ready to be laid down as a suitable stone in the foundation of the New Jerusalem.
Paul's statement is to believers about non-believers and how they would be saved through faith and confession.Rom 10:1 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God on behalf of the Jewish people is that they would be saved.
Paul is speaking to Brothers and sisters about Jews. …”that they would be saved”And how would they do that?
Rom 10:6 However, Scripture says about God's approval which is based on faith, “Don't ask yourself who will go up to heaven,” (that is, to bring Christ down).
“…God's approval which is based on faith…” Not works.
Rom 10:7 “Don't ask who will go down into the depths,” (that is, to bring Christ back from the dead).
Rom 10:8 However, what else does it say? “This message is near you. It's in your mouth and in your heart.” This is the message of faith that we spread.“This message is near you. It's in your mouth and in your heart.” Not in works but in your heart and mouth.
Rom 10:9 If you declare that Jesus is Lord, and believe that God brought him back to life, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 By believing you receive God's approval, and by declaring your faith you are saved.“…and by declaring your faith you are saved…”
No mention of water. AGAIN If you confess Jesus then you will want to be baptized “but if, again, that person should perish without the water then that person is saved!”
Quote (seminarian @ July 22 2006,22:53) Ken, I think we're talking about two different things here. I'm not sure what your point is but I think I was pretty clear in saying that only GOD knows the heart and He is the ultimate judge through Christ.
As a Biblical example, I mentioned salvation came to the thief on the cross alongside Christ and there was no water there either. People who became Jesus' disciples were being baptised by John so I believe it was a requirement even then. I also quoted Romans 10:9 as the Biblical confession of faith unto salvation A LONG TIME AGO.
Read my post again. I was speaking of you saying Nick didn't have Christ in his heart which is just plain wrong and I stand by that. Paul says we can not even discern our OWN motives so I think it very risky to try to say we know our brother's.
Let's move on because this is getting a little wierd already.
Best,
Semmy
Semmy I read your post again but I don't see my name but only heiscominintheclouds. So you at must have had me in mind also.
After your post about Nick It seemed that Nick could not make a mistake. I guess I was wrong and I apologize if you are offeneded.Just seemed that you changed your mind and I was wandering why, that's all. After all the subject is Baptism.
Reguarding Nick, I can't understand anyone knowing God and yet not knowing His Heart.
Would you or anyone for that matter deny his son salvation because there was no water?
May be there is a baptismal tank before you enter the pearly gates 🙂
I ment no harm. Sorry 🙁
Peace and LOVE Bro.
Hey Ken,
You know you're o.k. in my book! No offense taken. I also know that God
uses the weak and lowly vessels to express His glory. Nick, you and me are
just that. I've read things from both Nick AND you that blew me away from
the computer. Why? Well, not because you guys are infallible but because
at that point in time, God CHOSE to reveal His truth through you and Nick.I may not agree with everything you guys say but I still CAN NOT deny God's
power at work in you when you write revelations of scripture such as what
I've seen here. Just being honest. Being here has blessed me incredibly
because the level of Biblical discussion is far above what most boards can
offer. The reasoning and use of scripture is exceptional and very similar
to my seminary discussions and essays. That's why I don't mind hanging
around here in between classes. So you guys are up there!Bless ya' too!
Semmy
Hi Kenrch,
Here is Romans 10 1-10. Note that is is written to the brethren. No man is a spiritual brother to Paul unless he has been reborn into Christ. He talks to his brothers ABOUT the Israelites.The listeners were from the ranks of the Jews and Paul is explaining how their fellow Jew's and their own previously blind path is not helpful to them any longer.
They have not followed the Spirit of God who came in Christ and instead are still attempting their own salvation by works, a now impossible job.
“1Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2For I testify about them that they have (A)a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.3For not knowing about (B)God's righteousness and ©seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
4For (D)Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to (E)everyone who believes.
5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law (F)shall live by that righteousness.
6But (G)the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “(H)DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE (I)ABYSS?' (that is, to (J)bring Christ up from the dead).”
8But what does it say? “(K)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9that (L)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (M)believe in your heart that (N)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.These people had a “zeal” for God But were “ignorant of God's righteousness” NOT IGNORANT OF GOD'S WORD BUT HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
The word of FAITH which they preached!
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Aside from knowing the scriptures you should know “THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD!”
Otherwise all you know are the words on paper!What is the righteousness of God?
Is the righteousness of God water in a tub or river or lake?“..if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED!”
If you think that God will murder one of HIs children because he couldn't get to water then you don't know the righteousness of God.
Again I ask you would you deny your son or daughter salvation because of water even if you knew his/her heart?WOULD YOU NICK? Answer the question. Would anyone in this forum member or guest deny their children salvation because of water?
If no one answers then I will assume They Would Not Deny their child Salvation. Do You Think Your Heavenly Father Would?
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.These people had a “zeal” for God But were “ignorant of God's righteousness” NOT IGNORANT OF GOD'S WORD BUT HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
The word of FAITH which they preached!
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Aside from knowing the scriptures you should know “THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD!”
Otherwise all you know are the words on paper!What is the righteousness of God?
Is the righteousness of God water in a tub or river or lake?“..if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED!”
If you think that God will murder one of HIs children because he couldn't get to water then you don't know the righteousness of God.
Again I ask you would you deny your son or daughter salvation because of water even if you knew his/her heart?WOULD YOU NICK? Answer the question. Would anyone in this forum member or guest deny their children salvation because of water?
If no one answers then I will assume They Would Not Deny their child Salvation. Do You Think Your Heavenly Father Would?
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.These people had a “zeal” for God But were “ignorant of God's righteousness” NOT IGNORANT OF GOD'S WORD BUT HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
The word of FAITH which they preached!
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Aside from knowing the scriptures you should know “THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD!”
Otherwise all you know are the words on paper!What is the righteousness of God?
Is the righteousness of God water in a tub or river or lake?“..if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED!”
If you think that God will murder one of HIs children because he couldn't get to water then you don't know the righteousness of God.
Again I ask you would you deny your son or daughter salvation because of water even if you knew his/her heart?WOULD YOU NICK? Answer the question. Would anyone in this forum member or guest deny their children salvation because of water?
If no one answers then I will assume They Would Not Deny their child Salvation. Do You Think Your Heavenly Father Would?
I know that these questions seem foolish but they must be asked because some say our heavenly Father would deny your child salvation. They read the words but don't know the righteousness of God!
Quote (seminarian @ July 22 2006,22:53) Ken, I think we're talking about two different things here. I'm not sure what your point is but I think I was pretty clear in saying that only GOD knows the heart and He is the ultimate judge through Christ.
As a Biblical example, I mentioned salvation came to the thief on the cross alongside Christ and there was no water there either. People who became Jesus' disciples were being baptised by John so I believe it was a requirement even then. I also quoted Romans 10:9 as the Biblical confession of faith unto salvation A LONG TIME AGO.
Read my post again. I was speaking of you saying Nick didn't have Christ in his heart which is just plain wrong and I stand by that. Paul says we can not even discern our OWN motives so I think it very risky to try to say we know our brother's.
Let's move on because this is getting a little wierd already.
Best,
Semmy
Amen Semmy,I think it is wrong and just plain ignorant to try and judge someone else's heart.
Water Baptism was ordained by God through Christ. It was commanded without a doubt. If we truly believe and fear God we will obey end of story.
Obedience is important
Acts 5:32, Hebrews 5:9I think now's a good time to drop this matter.
Quote (Woutlaw @ July 23 2006,16:38) Quote (seminarian @ July 22 2006,22:53) Ken, I think we're talking about two different things here. I'm not sure what your point is but I think I was pretty clear in saying that only GOD knows the heart and He is the ultimate judge through Christ.
As a Biblical example, I mentioned salvation came to the thief on the cross alongside Christ and there was no water there either. People who became Jesus' disciples were being baptised by John so I believe it was a requirement even then. I also quoted Romans 10:9 as the Biblical confession of faith unto salvation A LONG TIME AGO.
Read my post again. I was speaking of you saying Nick didn't have Christ in his heart which is just plain wrong and I stand by that. Paul says we can not even discern our OWN motives so I think it very risky to try to say we know our brother's.
Let's move on because this is getting a little wierd already.
Best,
Semmy
Amen Semmy,I think it is wrong and just plain ignorant to try and judge someone else's heart.
Water Baptism was ordained by God through Christ. It was commanded without a doubt. If we truly believe and fear God we will obey end of story.
Obedience is important
Acts 5:32, Hebrews 5:9I think now's a good time to drop this matter.
Ok so answer the question withoutlaw. Would you deny your son salvation because he couldn't get to water? Yes or noIt's simple you know your sons heart, God knows your heart.
Isn't that the issue. Water or no water. God's righteousness. His heart. Your heart.
I would never deny anyone salvation if their heart were right with God. Would you?
You say if no water then he is not saved. So does that apply to your son as well? Even if his heart is right with God?
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 “For being ignorant of God's righteousness”, “and seeking to establish their own”, “they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.”
Water baptism is symbolism. It saves no one. Symbolism cannot save a man. To say that is does in itself is not scriptural. This is getting childish. Are we not adults here? How can grown men think that symbolism can save a man? It us not symbolism that saves a man. It is the saving grace in which the symbolism portrays that says the man and that is the inner cleansing, the washing of the man through the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Let this matter be dropped.
Hi ken,
A careful reading of 1 Peter 3 shows that water baptism is an appeal for forgiveness from God by the obedience of a repentant heart.We only enter the kingdom when our sins are forgiven. We only become children of God when we are reborn into Christ and he is reborn into us.
So it is not an additional extra sought by the saved but it too is an integral part of the salvation plan of God.
We also do not presume to think and speak for God and state that God would only think and do as we do. God is greater than us and is not bound by any human moral ideas.
Instead we are obliged to find and obey the righteous demands of God
Nick, one thing I can say good you is you have a gift for being affluent in the way you make your wording flow. The only problem is that you know as well as I, that you agreed many post ago, that water baptism saves no one. We agreed it is important and that it is an act of obedience. And here we are again with you once again making the claim that water baptism saves a man or is part of the salvation structure. I on the other hand believe it is an act of obedience and a step in the walk of faith as is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
As for being born again, when a man asks for forgiveness of sins, the repentant heart is cleansed by the blood of Christ and Jesus lives in the heart of that man. This is when a man is saved, not water baptism. It is faith that he will be forgiven for his sins by believing on the Son of God.
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