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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2008,11:56) Hi not3,
He did carry the sin of all men to the cross.
2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Was that the original plan? That the promised Messiah should bear the sin of the world? Where is that laid out in the OT regarding the One to come? Thanks.N3,
Most of the OT verses that people say apply to Jesus do not. Psalm 69 is just one of many. Psalms are not prophetic, they are songs of praise and songs of triumph.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2008,09:24) Hi not3,
Why have you been given the Spirit if all was obvious without this blessing?Matt 2 quotes about Jesus in Micah
Micah 5
1Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.2But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
3Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
4And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
5And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
6And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
7And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
8And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
9Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
10And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots:
11And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strong holds:
12And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:
13Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.
14And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.
15And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
Should the whole chapter be made to apply to him?
Or perhaps the whole book?
Discernment is required.
What is attributed to Jesus here has not happened yet, however Jesus has already come and gone……..Where is the bit about the second coming when all of what is said about him will FINALLY come to pass?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 17 2008,21:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2008,11:56) Hi not3,
He did carry the sin of all men to the cross.
2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Was that the original plan? That the promised Messiah should bear the sin of the world? Where is that laid out in the OT regarding the One to come? Thanks.
The closest you will come to what Jesus was supposed to fulfill is found in Isa 53. Even then, it is special pleading because neither Jesus nor his disciples ever mentioned that passage.In the end, the life of Jesus would never have been know without Paul. Paul wrote the first words about him, yet never knew him. The rest is, as they say, history. The life of Jesus brings the knowledge of God to the rest of the world beyond the Jews. IMHO that was the true purpose of Jesus.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 18 2008,14:49) N3,
Most of the OT verses that people say apply to Jesus do not. Psalm 69 is just one of many. Psalms are not prophetic, they are songs of praise and songs of triumph.
But why put Jesus there at all?Why can we not take a critical look at the OT in general and say….where is Jesus? We can put him into various sections but upon contextual reading and honest evaluation, there are other explainations. So WHY continue to believe Jesus is there? I just don't get it.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 18 2008,14:44) Quote (seek and you will find @ Feb. 18 2008,11:56) Mandy! In verse 21 and 25 which has a star in front of the verse are Jesus talking and were set in. Don't know what all of that means, tho. Why it was set in. Peace and Love Irene
My bible doesn't include a star or explaination that various versus are Jesus or anyone else talking. I believe we draw our own conclusions depending on what we want to believe, or what is popular to believe, or what we have been taught from the beginning.I do not see Jesus talking anywhere in this Psalm.
I have a New King James Version of the Bible and it has the stars next to those two Scriptures. Mr. Armstrong was the one that told us that they were set in, but never explained what that meant, so I do not know anything differently. The problem also comes in when you have so many different types of the Bibles and some have added and some have taken out Scriptures.
But if you can't see Jesus in the psalms, I belief that Isaiah has plenty of Scriptures that talk about Jesus, does that not count as the Old Testament?
Then you have all the Scriptures in the N.T. they don't count either? These are eye witnesses, you do not believe that? If that is the case you do have a problem, but for me it shows plenty of prove.Peace and Love Mrs.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 18 2008,14:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2008,11:56) Hi not3,
He did carry the sin of all men to the cross.
2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Was that the original plan? That the promised Messiah should bear the sin of the world? Where is that laid out in the OT regarding the One to come? Thanks.
Hi not3,
What we are meant to see is there to see
for those who have eyes to see.Satan could not be allowed to see the whole plan WRITTEN.
He is pretty good at throwing a spanner in the works.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 18 2008,14:56) I never thought I would be here. Doubting Jesus Christ. But I never really read the bible either.
I started asking all sorts of things when I started to read the Bible, but then I was reading it from go-to-whoa, like a novel.
It wasn't until a friend suggested I do one of those `read-the-Bible-in-a-year' readings that things started to fall together for me – because you read a piece of the OT and some of the NT – and it usually ties the two together.
I don't feel confident enough to quote scripture, but you say you believe so all I can suggest to you is to focus on positive devotionals, try a Bible-in-a-Year programme and draw near to God.
God bless!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2008,15:18) Satan could not be allowed to see the whole plan WRITTEN.
Of course this does not make sense.Satan sees the whole bible laid out now……what of his knowledge of the “plan” now? Now that he knows, that is.
Yes, eyes to see and ears to hear. Implying that some are only spiritual enough to get the gist of what is going on here. And those spiritual enough are the ones who ride along on faith and do not question or look back….
I'm getting weary of the same ol' song and dance. I guess the question to be answered by each one has to be, will you continue on in your belief even when you are shown it is impossible? For me, I'm getting closer to drawing that line in the sand. I cannot divorce myself from my own ability to reason. I cannot turn a deaf ear to the logic resounding in my head when I read things that don't add up. If I were to rely on faith alone even though my senses are telling me something different – I would be a phony at best; believing but doubting all together at the same time.
I'm told that God will spit me out of his mouth if he finds me in this condition when he comes for his own. I guess I am doomed at every turn.
Maybe that is why Lot's wife turned back around to take a look. She knew that the fate of her neighbors could be her fate as well. Maybe she knew in her heart that she was just like them and it was only a matter of time before she was found out anyway. Maybe she couldn't believe that God would slaughter a whole entire town because they were disobedient. So much for free-will and free-choice, huh?
Well, that's enough discouragement for me for one night. I'm heading to bed. I will rise in the morning and praise my God. The One I know that created me for his pleasure. I will enjoy his creation and I will love my neighbor….. Beyond this, I know nothing.
This is a decion that I do not think that you should have made yet. I know that you been doubting for some time now, but given up Jesus is a very serious thing. Knowing that if you do, that you do not have the Father then either, do you realize that? So if I would be you I would reconsider and give it some time. Prayimg and Fasting, Fasting, Fasting and Praying would be a stiff order of the day for you that is my suggestion.
Just remember that Jesus Loves us all and has given up His life for us, or do you not belief that either?
Sorry Amanda I just do not understand you.Peace and Love Irene
Hi Not3,
He can also read
“It is finished”
and
Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.and his own fate is written for his eyes too.
Not 3 in One;
When God called Abraham from Ur of the Chaldeas he promised him that he would make him the father of many nations. However, many years elapse and Abraham is still without a child. What do you think his family thought about whether or not he heard from God? What about his wife?
Worse yet, every time he gets a word from his brother Nahor up north, his wife, Milcah, is having another baby. She had eight kids and Reumah, Nahor's concubine had four children. That's twelve kids. Abraham had two, one from Sarah and one from his concubine Hagar.
Based upon these facts alone, do you think that Abraham had reason to question whether he had actually heard from God? What about his brother Nahor? He hears his brother has only one child from Sarah and must wonder if his brother really heard from God.
The truth is God tries the righteous. Until the time that Jacob's word came, the word of the Lord tried him.
Noah was 500 hundred before he had a child. During the same time period where women ususally started to have children around age 100, other families were already in the fifth and sixth generations. Do the math, if each person just had five children in each generation, do you realize how large the family tree would become. More importantly, how much this tried the faith of Noah and his wife. God tries the righteous.
Place your faith in Jesus Christ based upon the facts, he performed the works that no other man ever dreamed of performing. He spent most of his life in obscurity, yet the world was made by him.
Just know that every night when you go to sleep, the heavens are his throne and the earth is at his feet, so when you sleep, you're sleeping at Jesus feet. He is there and will never leave you or forsake you.
Steven
There are some major problems with your analogies Steve. The biggest one is that if we can take the bible for what it says, all of the above men had real encounters with God. Thus their faith came from actual events while the typical Christian must be forced to believe in something that was written about thousands of years ago. The miracles that Jesus performed are only written of and no one else is able to reproduce them. Yet we are also told that Mohammed performed miracles as did Joseph Smith. Why should we then assume that these others are charlatans while only Jesus is the real deal? While I do not choose to believe in the acts of Mohammed or J. Smith, it is in the end just that: something you choose to believe.
Hi KJ,
Then why not go and follow these new Christs who were prophesied to come?
You have free choice but it is wiser to hang on to the remnants of your belief in Jesus.
If faith in what is written is not enough then you cannot know the Spirit who reveals it's beauty.Kejonn;
You are the first person I've heard espouse that Mohammed and Joseph Smith performed miracles. Were they killed out of envy? Does the spirit of the enemy use their names in vain? Perhaps you know of some who do use the name of Mohammed in vain, too?
What is written in scripture is written for our learning and instruction upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Why is it wiser, because you believe it is? Seriously, Mandy is struggling with what she reads in OT vs NT, and all of you offer encouragement but no real answers. That is what she needs, not a pat on the back and a call to turn away from the questions.
Why is faith in what you believe any more beneficial than any other religious faith?
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 18 2008,14:55) Kejonn; You are the first person I've heard espouse that Mohammed and Joseph Smith performed miracles. Were they killed out of envy? Does the spirit of the enemy use their names in vain? Perhaps you know of some who do use the name of Mohammed in vain, too?
What is written in scripture is written for our learning and instruction upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Was Jesus killed because of envy? While the bible would have to believe so, there is no evidence of this outside of scripture. So we are forced to take the words of unknown writers and the words of Paul who never walked with Jesus.It is well know outside of scripture that Pilate was a ruthless man. Yet the bible has him as a meek man who cowed to the wishes of the Jews. How can history and the bible give two differing views of the same man?
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 19 2008,07:58) Why is it wiser, because you believe it is? Seriously, Mandy is struggling with what she reads in OT vs NT, and all of you offer encouragement but no real answers. That is what she needs, not a pat on the back and a call to turn away from the questions. Why is faith in what you believe any more beneficial than any other religious faith?
Hi KJ,
Did you think faith gave us all the answers?
Not so. It gives us eternal hope.
Do unanswered questions threaten faith?
No, we will always have them.
Knowledge is an optional extra, valuable but lack of it does not challenge the decision made to follow Jesus.
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