Uncertainty

[Son of Light]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,17:55)

“….the essence of truth.”  Interesting. You say the bible is truth yet…….all these things that have goofed it up.  Hmmm  See, I just can't buy that for a dollar anymore.  The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's?  And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth?  As it is, we have to guess at it.  Or as you say, study all the possiblities for running-a-muck and try to preserve the essence of the absolute truth that is hidden there.  Ya, I get it now.

This might help Mandy.

This is how I see it:

The bible is NOT TRUTH!

Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.

The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW.

The Father's spirit is the PURE LAW and he is LOVE.

The bible is a compilation of men's testamonies about their experiences both divine and mundane. They are glimpses of what they saw though looking through a glass darkly.

And sadly there errors and even forgeries. Entire epistles forged.

Scripture is just information. It is not THE TRUTH or THE LAW.

2 Timothy 3:16 is supposedly an epistle written by Paul. However, the pastorals are the most contested books in the bible. They were written much to late to be Paul's. They are forgeries by the early proto-catholic church as they tried to find ways to bring solidarity and structure to their new faith.

2 Timothy 3:16

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

So is scripture useful? Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study.

[Son of Light]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,18:16)

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,18:09) Mandy A wise Man once said that the Bible is like a big Puzzle, if you put the right pieces together it makes sense. I have not forgotten that, and when I see an error I look at the whole picture not just that error. It was man that translated the scroll into the Bible and they were small pieces and it is understandable that some may be different, but over all the Bible is the word of God. That is what I believe. Peace and Love Mrs IM4Truth So do you add up the number of times that the bible says god appeared to someone and take away the number of times it is written that no one has ever seen god, and use the result to decide the truth? Stuart

lol that was pretty funny. It also supports my position.

[Stu]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56)

The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. So is scripture useful?  Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study.

How do you know what Jesus' message was?
There is basically nothing 'known' about him outside the NT.

Stuart

[NickHassan]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,17:55) “….the essence of truth.”  Interesting. You say the bible is truth yet…….all these things that have goofed it up.  Hmmm  See, I just can't buy that for a dollar anymore.  The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's?  And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth?  As it is, we have to guess at it.  Or as you say, study all the possiblities for running-a-muck and try to preserve the essence of the absolute truth that is hidden there.  Ya, I get it now.   This might help Mandy. This is how I see it: The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW. The Father's spirit is the PURE LAW and he is LOVE. The bible is a compilation of men's testamonies about their experiences both divine and mundane.  They are glimpses of what they saw though looking through a glass darkly.   And sadly there errors and even forgeries. Entire epistles forged. Scripture is just information.  It is not THE TRUTH or THE LAW. 2 Timothy 3:16 is supposedly an epistle written by Paul. However, the pastorals are the most contested books in the bible. They were written much to late to be Paul's. They are forgeries by the early proto-catholic church as they tried to find ways to bring solidarity and structure to their new faith. 2 Timothy 3:16 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, So is scripture useful?  Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study.

Hi SOL,
Nonsense.
But
to maintain a position
far outside of scripture
you need to denigrate it.

[Son of Light]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,19:48)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56) The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. So is scripture useful?  Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study. How do you know what Jesus' message was? There is basically nothing 'known' about him outside the NT. Stuart

Not true, thousands of text that aren't canonical exist.

Including from his essene/nazarene/ebionite movement in Jerusalem.

[seek and you will find]

Son of Light You believe in Jesus, but not in the Bible? That to me does not make much sense, since the N.T. is full of words that Jesus spoke. The Gospels and the Epistles the letters Paul wrote and the Testimony they gave of Jesus. I guess I would have to go to goggles to see what exactly you believe in. Essene Nazarene/ebiote movement, never heard of it. You do not believe that either. What do you belief besides that God is Love. There are no 10 Commandments?

Peace and Love MrsIM4Truth

[Stu]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,19:54)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,19:48) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56) The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. So is scripture useful?  Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study. How do you know what Jesus' message was? There is basically nothing 'known' about him outside the NT. Stuart Not true, thousands of text that aren't canonical exist.   Including from his essene/nazarene/ebionite movement in Jerusalem.

Which of these non-canonical documents do you rate as accurate accounts of Jesus? in your opinion do any have a reasonable claim that unlike the canon, they are eyewitness accounts? Thomas, for example?

Stuart

[Towshab]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,02:54)

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,19:48) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56) The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. So is scripture useful? Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study. How do you know what Jesus' message was? There is basically nothing 'known' about him outside the NT. Stuart Not true, thousands of text that aren't canonical exist. Including from his essene/nazarene/ebionite movement in Jerusalem.

Yes, and you have to sift through them because they all present divergent characterizations of Jesus. I guess you just pick the ones that agree with who you want Jesus to be.

[Son of Light]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,20:47)

Son of Light  You believe in Jesus, but not in the Bible? That to me does not make much sense, since the N.T. is full of words that Jesus spoke. The Gospels and the Epistles the letters Paul wrote and the Testimony they gave of Jesus. I guess I would have to go to goggles to see what exactly you believe in. Essene Nazarene/ebiote movement, never heard of it. You do not believe that either. What do you belief besides that God is Love. There are no 10 Commandments? Peace and Love MrsIM4Truth

People believed in Jesus for 1500 years before the printing press was invented.

People believed in Jesus for over 400 years before the bible was even assembled.

People believed in Jesus even while they were disagreeing with what bibles should be in the canon. (think about it, we had Christians complaining from the beginning that certain books did or did not belong.)

People believed in Jesus before the first epistles even written. (about 25 years later) And even the last about (possibly over 100 years later).

We have many Christian “sects” arround the world that use different canons. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Ethiopic etc.

The truth is most christians throughout all history did not have a bible.

The truth is the bible contains errors and that is demonstrable in many many places. Some of the error is intentional forgery even.

[Son of Light]

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 13 2008,00:51)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,02:54) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 12 2008,19:48) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56) The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. So is scripture useful?  Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study. How do you know what Jesus' message was? There is basically nothing 'known' about him outside the NT. Stuart Not true, thousands of text that aren't canonical exist.   Including from his essene/nazarene/ebionite movement in Jerusalem. Yes, and you have to sift through them because they all present divergent characterizations of Jesus. I guess you just pick the ones that agree with who you want Jesus to be.

His teachings are actually pretty consistent Tow. I am not describing his eschatology but his moral teachings about man and his relationship with God.

Textual Criticism. Read the Jesus Seminar sometime.

[kenrch]

According to the ESSENE Jesus kept the Sabbath.

So which of the Ten commandments are bad?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,17:55) “….the essence of truth.”  Interesting. You say the bible is truth yet…….all these things that have goofed it up.  Hmmm  See, I just can't buy that for a dollar anymore.  The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's?  And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth?  As it is, we have to guess at it.  Or as you say, study all the possiblities for running-a-muck and try to preserve the essence of the absolute truth that is hidden there.  Ya, I get it now.   This might help Mandy. This is how I see it: The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW. The Father's spirit is the PURE LAW and he is LOVE. The bible is a compilation of men's testamonies about their experiences both divine and mundane.  They are glimpses of what they saw though looking through a glass darkly.   And sadly there errors and even forgeries. Entire epistles forged. Scripture is just information.  It is not THE TRUTH or THE LAW. 2 Timothy 3:16 is supposedly an epistle written by Paul. However, the pastorals are the most contested books in the bible. They were written much to late to be Paul's. They are forgeries by the early proto-catholic church as they tried to find ways to bring solidarity and structure to their new faith. 2 Timothy 3:16 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, So is scripture useful?  Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study.

SOL

I am doubled over laughing..

First you say…

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The bible is NOT TRUTH!

Then you say…

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Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life.

Jn 14:6

   

[seek and you will find]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2008,04:43)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,17:55) “….the essence of truth.”  Interesting. You say the bible is truth yet…….all these things that have goofed it up.  Hmmm  See, I just can't buy that for a dollar anymore.  The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's?  And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth?  As it is, we have to guess at it.  Or as you say, study all the possiblities for running-a-muck and try to preserve the essence of the absolute truth that is hidden there.  Ya, I get it now.   This might help Mandy. This is how I see it: The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW. The Father's spirit is the PURE LAW and he is LOVE. The bible is a compilation of men's testamonies about their experiences both divine and mundane.  They are glimpses of what they saw though looking through a glass darkly.   And sadly there errors and even forgeries. Entire epistles forged. Scripture is just information.  It is not THE TRUTH or THE LAW. 2 Timothy 3:16 is supposedly an epistle written by Paul. However, the pastorals are the most contested books in the bible. They were written much to late to be Paul's. They are forgeries by the early proto-catholic church as they tried to find ways to bring solidarity and structure to their new faith. 2 Timothy 3:16 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, So is scripture useful?  Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study. SOL I am doubled over laughing.. First you say… Quote The bible is NOT TRUTH! Then you say… Quote Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. Jn 14:6

That certainly is a contradiction to what you are saying. I am not going to laugh at you, but you must explain to us what you mean.
John 14:6 is what you are saying. If you are saying that then why do you not belief in the Bible, cause that is were you can find it.

Peace and Love Mrs.IM4Truth

[Stu]

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 13 2008,04:21)

According to the ESSENE Jesus kept the Sabbath. So which of the Ten commandments are bad?

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

What does 'the water under the earth' mean?

Stuart

[acertainchap]

The First Commandment

I. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of
the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before Me. Thou
shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing
that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that
are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve
them. I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them
that hate Me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love Me, and
keep My commandments.

An explaination of the 'waters under the earth' in The First Commandment…

Source: http://www.ewtn.com/library/SOURCES/TA-CAT-2.TXT

Some people worshipped the heavenly bodies, believing the stars to be gods: “They
have imagined the sun and the moon to be the gods that rule the world.”[4]
For this reason Moses forbade the Jews to raise their eyes, or adore the
sun and moon and stars: “Keep therefore your souls carefully . . . lest
perhaps lifting up thy eyes to heaven, thou see the sun and the moon, and
all the stars of heaven, and being deceived by error thou adore and serve
them, which the Lord thy God created for the service of all the nations.”[5]
The astrologers sin against this Commandment in that they say that these
bodies are the rulers of souls, when in truth they were made for the use of
man whose sole ruler is God.

Others worshipped the lower elements: “They imagined the fire or the wind
to be gods.”[6] Into this error also fall those who wrongly use the things of
this earth and love them too much: “Or covetous person (who is a server of
idols).”

*Thus, the water under the earth is indicative that pagans should not make any idols or have any “water gods” to worship, along with fire or wind etc. but ONLY the One true God.

[Stu]

Thanks for your explanation, acertainchap. I remain skeptical. It does actually say that there are things in the waters under the earth that should not be made into idols. You have to really stretch that to get 'false gods that are claimed to live in waters under the earth'. Surely it would be even more convincing to simply state the reality that there is no such thing as the 'water under the earth' to house such pagan gods.

Such water seems to be a common misconception. I know a fundamentalist christian who is still convinced that the water for 'the flood' came from under the surface of the earth, and that the continental plates float on water, even though it's magma at thousands of degrees down there.

Stuart

[Towshab]

Just as a side item, but wouldn't underground streams and springs be considered “water under the earth”?

[Stu]

Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 17 2008,21:36)

Just as a side item, but wouldn't underground streams and springs be considered “water under the earth”?

That is a good point. I think there is a common theme that indicates a belief in more that the underground waterways we know about:

http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/wute.html

There is such a thing as water under the surface but it is very tightly trapped in the subterranian rock, and would not well up in the manner described in the OT:

http://www.livescience.com/environment/070228_beijing_anomoly.html

Here we see that fish can swim in this 'under earth' water:

Deu 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Maybe there is deep truth for some here. It looks to me like it is not inspired by an all-knowing deity but is written with the knowledge and ignorance possessed by contemporary humans.

Stuart

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Stu @ Jan. 09 2008,13:35)

Hi Is 1:18

Hello….Stuart [spoken in the way that Jerry Seinfeld greets Newman] (note: you won't get this unless you watch a lot of 'Seinfeld')

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Stu: But what of the commandment not to kill?

Obviously this is a reference to murder Stuart. I mean taken at absolute face value this commandment would have to encompass killing well….anything – microorganisms, insects, plants, animals and men. So there is intent in the language that would have been known by the readers but were not immediately obvious from the language itself.

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OK. So if these are capital offenses, would you want to see the judicial killing of blasphemers?

Sure. That would be a great deterant for profaning the name of our Creator. Blasphemy rates would drop right off over night.

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Does it have any objective credibility to go back to the 13th Century and make witchcraft a capital offense?  If not, you are already starting to pick and choose from Leviticus.  If you can ignore one bit of it, why can’t you ignore all of it?  The commandment itself does not make the distinction you are making.

I'm not picking and choosing Stu.

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Stu: Is the commandment nulified by the hypocritical way god has broken his own law?

It is not against the Mosaic Law to put a person to death. I have already explained this.

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Is this a euphemism for murdering someone?   I’m not guilty your Honour, I was just bringing him from one phase of his existence into another.

The point I was making was that YHWH was not causing a cessation to their existence. That seems to be an overriding premise in your argument. Does the Creator and sustainer of life have the right to take some of His created order from one phase of their existence into another? I say yes, YHWH does have this right (and you have yet to give me a legitimate reason why I’m wrong). And let’s bear in mind, Stu, if they were under the age of accountability or were saved then I don’t think they will have had a problem with their premature exit from this life. According to the Bible, the next phase of existence is a lot better than this one. If they were of the “wicked”, then yes they undoubtedly would have. But that would be there problem, they had their opportunity to repent and receive redemption, and they chose to forfeit that opportunity. Decisions have consequences.

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Actually I think that maybe christian fundamentalists really do think that they can wash their hands of the accused by executing them in the ‘knowledge’ that if they bring the accused to face their god, then the judgement will be a sound one at that point, whether or not they got the judgement right on earth.  Now I think about it that was exactly the basis for dunking witches in medieval Europe.

If they did it lawfully then no problem. If it was an unlawful killing then they are guilty of murder. Humans are authorized in scripture to put other men to death if they are found guilty of certain sins. And it is the Bible that this discussion we are having is predicated upon after all. Is capital punishment scriptural? Yes it is.

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If there is no god then these people have committed the most callous injustice.  It is a shame they can’t prove there is a god to justify this logic. Perhaps you don’t adhere to this idea though.

If there is no god then in my opinion they would be committing a moral injustice by not putting to death men found guilty of grievous crimes like murder and rape. What the Bible says about capital punishment just happens to marry with my intrinsic feelings on these matters. And get the feeling you would feel the same as me if someone close to you was a victim of one of these crimes Stu. Funny how people change their tune when they find themselves on the inside of the sphere of exposure of a grievous crime.

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Stu: What credibility does a 'lawgiver' have if he himself does not obey the laws?

I don’t believe YHWH could be accused of an unjustified killing in scripture. There was always a purpose.

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And: Stu: The deity that thus commands also breaks it when he himself judges others. Isn't judicial killing two examples in succession of breaking the orders of the celestial dictator who in any case can't follow his own principles?

According to the Bible – justified killing good, unjustified killing bad.

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Stu: We may imprison people for the safety of others, but should we judge when we have been told not to judge others?

Where in scripture are we commanded not to judge someone accused of sin?? If you’re referencing Matt 7:1-5, then if think you have misinterpreted this passage. It’s not warning against people exercising their discernment and passing judgment against another per se. Obviously God allows us, and indeed wants us, to judge righteously:

Deuteronomy 1:16
Then I charged your judges at that time, saying, “Hear the cases between your fellow countrymen, and judge righteously between a man and his fellow countrymen, or the alien who is with him”

And “judging” is necessary in determining whether or not an actual sin/crime has been committed. The Matthew passage is speaking specifically of issuing  ‘condemnation’ towards another. Jesus Christ is the ultimate Judge of all (John 5:22, Acts 10:42). He alone discriminates between right and wrong, good and evil, He alone will condemn.

This may put this verse in its proper context for you:
Judge not … – This command refers to rash, censorious, and unjust judgment. See Romans 2:1. Luke Luke 6:37 explains it in the sense of “condemning.” Christ does not condemn judging
as a magistrate, for that, when according to justice, is lawful and necessary. Nor does he condemn our “forming an opinion” of the conduct of others, for it is impossible “not” to form an opinion of conduct that we know to be evil. But what he refers to is a habit of forming a judgment hastily, harshly, and without an allowance for every palliating circumstance, and a habit of “expressing” such an opinion harshly and unnecessarily when formed. It rather refers to private judgment than “judicial,” and perhaps primarily to the customs of the scribes and Pharisees.
Source: http://bibletools.org/….s

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No, you misunderstand.  I am assuming your frame of reference and quizzing you on how consistent it is.  I don’t believe a word of Leviticus and I think anyone who makes it a basis for a justice system or a moral code is not a christian (in the sense that Son of Light would describe, for example) and would be also a callous psychopathic bastard with no comprehension of humanity.

Son of light should align his view with Yeshua's, if he is indeed a Christian. This is what Yeshua has said:

Matthew 5:17-19
17″Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18″For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19″Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven..

Luke 16:17
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

A real Christian should hold the same views Christ held. Christ affirmed the validity and relevance of the O.T Laws, so should the Christian. Understand? Maybe this doesn’t mesh with what you think a Christian should be, but that’s beside the point.

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Stu: I don't believe in any of this (apart from condemning the primitive logic that often supports the use of the death penalty) but I am curious about how you square your beliefs to obey and to ignore at the same time.

Hopefully I’ve explained this to you.

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Good question.  The first point to be made here about evolution is that it is not a life philosophy.  Some tried to make it one, but they are crackpots in my view.  The second thing to say is that you may be right, that removing from the population of those with a tendency to kill may have an advantage but perhaps our behaviour is more complex because there are other competing effects like the advantages to be had in love and forgiveness.   I think the principle of what you call the golden rule is a universal principle of collective human cultures, notwithstanding the fact that wars and cannibalism have overridden it as a consequence of instincts of tribalism.

That’s an interesting assertion, “the golden rule is a universal principle of collective human cultures”. How do you know this? Many, many cultures throughout human history are undocumented.

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There is great survival advantage to be had in cooperation.  Let’s say you have children and your siblings don’t.  There is a genetic advantage to them if they help nurture your children because those children contain a large number of genes in common with their uncles and aunts.  Maybe there is a resistance to killing because it goes against those other human qualities that help our survival.

Statistics tell us that 100% of murderers that are put to death for their crime don’t go on to reoffend in the same manner. The recidivism rate is ZERO. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for incarceration, because prison hardly ever changes a person’s nature. It cannot be argued that the preservation of a recidivistic offender’s life is in the best interest of our species. Cancerous growths should be excised from the body.

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Killing is wrong because I am programmed to say that….

Programmed huh? That implies a programmer. Who would that be Stu? The simple cell is far more complex than a jumbo jet. It is packed with automated factories and assembly plants with processing units connected to a central memory bank. It contains hundreds of thousands of specific protein molecules, each composed of over 3000 parts in three-dimensional configurations. DNA is by far the best information storage and retrieval system known, it comprises about 4000 books worth of information that is read and obeyed by the cell. A ‘specifically complex’ error-correcting digital code that has self-diagnostic, self-repairing and self-reproducing capabilities! (ref: 'Cosmic Codes', Chuck Missler)

It’s little wonder that evolutionary scientists who truly understand the intricate nuances of the genome have resorted to espousing bizarre theories to explain how this clearly designed information-bearing structure arose in the absence of a master designer. Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of DNA, was a proponent of a theory claming extra-terrestrial seeded the earth with life by sending rockets!! Of course this begs the question: where did the extra-terrestrials come from? Who made them?

I also think it's curious that contemporary Biologists (specifically evolutionary biologists) have the audacity to assume that the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to their field. The second law of thermodynamics dictates that things move from a state of order to disorder? Increasing entropy would lead to de-volution, not evolution. Just one of it's many flaws….

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and act on it by my genetic makeup and the conditioning that my culture has collectively imposed on me

I can see where this is going….

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Had I different parents and a different culture, maybe my view would be different.  Further to that I have questioned why people kill others and realise that it is not to my advantage that others die, and that it causes them distress which is against my worldview of maximising happiness for as many as possible.

Ahh relativism there you are, I was wondering when you might turn up. So what you are saying here Stu is that rightness and wrongness are determined by the individual. What is right for one may not be right for another. There is no absolute right or wrong. That being the case, then you h
ave no grounds to say that YHWH was wrong to kill, because maybe for God killing is okay. By appealing to relativism you  have undermined your whole argument. With relativism there is no real right or wrong, only subjective opinion, which amounts to nothing really.

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OK, I know a particular criminal may have previously caused others greater distress but I can’t see how the answer to one killing is more killing. Apart from its excellent deterrent nature, it completely solves the recidivism dilemma. It’s also much cheaper than other solutions, exacting a lesser drag on the economy of a nation. It’s got a lot going for it Stu. I can’t see why you don’t see this…. If the state says killing is wrong and brings a charge of murder against an accused, a death sentence would only show that killing is a way of solving a problem, or hypocritically that killing is right.

No, most sound thinking people can draw the distinction between the legally-justified killing of a criminal and the unjustified murder of someone. Using your logic you could also argue that the IRD taking money in the form of tax vindicates burglary! There is clearly a difference between legally acquiring a person’s money and stealing it.

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The level of sophistication and understanding of why and in what circumstances people commit homicide is not enough to justify such barbarism.

What is more barbaric; not executing a compulsive murderer and allowing him to go on to murder many upon being released from prison (as has happened many times), or ending his life and thereby saving many more? To my mind the Judge that does not order his execution is complicit in any murders he may commit after his release.

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Execution is the most premeditated form of killing and is not justice for a person who has killed in a rage, when he was not in control of his reptillian brain.

If you were the parent of a child who was the recipient of an enraged offender’s murderous act you would feel differently. You would not be so inclined to rationalize it the way you have, i.e. it was just his reptilian brain, he really couldn’t help it…you would be baying for his blood. And hey, maybe if you social conditioning and/or genetic makeup had been dissimilar you would feel differently, right? Because you hold to relativism you cannot rightly make any absolutist moral statements. Your relativism will always betray you, invalidating every absolutist moral assertion you make…..

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No excuses for the criminal, but execution is not an intelligent and rational answer to the question of why people go haywire.  Might there be ways of fixing these people rather than doing away with them?

If they go haywire once and kill someone, they are likely to repeat that the next time something sets them off. It’s a very intelligent solution to execute them, that way the likelihood that they would reoffend is negated.

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So much for forgiveness!

Forgive them, then execute them or perhaps the other way around. Either way, they should be forgiven lest you imprison yourself with your own bitterness, and they should be put to death.

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Can you justify state-sponsored execution in the terms I have used, or would you just point to Leviticus?  Might god be morally unreliable on this point?

In most of the points I made on the legitimacy of putting serious criminals to death I have used legal and moral arguments, hardly ever appealing to scripture. That’s because I think it can be justified with or without the Bible. Stu, if we can’t get past this issue of justified killing vs. unjustified murder than we are destined to disagree perpetually. I have tried to make my case why I see a distinction between them in this post. Hopefully you understand my perspective better now.

Blessings

P.S: A good debate on the topic of whether Christians should support the death penalty can be found here.

[Son of Light]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2008,04:43)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,18:56) Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,17:55) “….the essence of truth.”  Interesting. You say the bible is truth yet…….all these things that have goofed it up.  Hmmm  See, I just can't buy that for a dollar anymore.  The reason is that if the bible is truth AND inspired of God (that's a a biggie), then how come the mess-up's?  And why didn't God allow his Word to be more pure so that we could find the absolute truth?  As it is, we have to guess at it.  Or as you say, study all the possiblities for running-a-muck and try to preserve the essence of the absolute truth that is hidden there.  Ya, I get it now.   This might help Mandy. This is how I see it: The bible is NOT TRUTH! Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. The 10 commandments are NOT the PURE LAW. The Father's spirit is the PURE LAW and he is LOVE. The bible is a compilation of men's testamonies about their experiences both divine and mundane.  They are glimpses of what they saw though looking through a glass darkly.   And sadly there errors and even forgeries. Entire epistles forged. Scripture is just information.  It is not THE TRUTH or THE LAW. 2 Timothy 3:16 is supposedly an epistle written by Paul. However, the pastorals are the most contested books in the bible. They were written much to late to be Paul's. They are forgeries by the early proto-catholic church as they tried to find ways to bring solidarity and structure to their new faith. 2 Timothy 3:16 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, So is scripture useful?  Yes. But so is science, history and all the other fields of study. SOL I am doubled over laughing.. First you say… Quote The bible is NOT TRUTH! Then you say… Quote Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. Jn 14:6

It is sad that you doubled over laughing when I called Jesus THE TRUTH and you are a christian.

The gospel of John is not the only source that says Jesus is the truth. I assume you thought it was funny because I used the bible to call Jesus the truth. Well it is not just the catholic canon that says this.

I am not saying that the catholic canon does not hold any truth I am saying that IT by itself is not truth.

No two new testament texts are exactly the same out of thousands of copies.

We have forgeries in the scripture.

If you could only answer with one word what would you say truth was as a Christian?

I would say Jesus.

He is the way the truth and the life. Christ in you not the bible. Thousands of christians lived and died without every owning one. The bible wasn't settled for hundreds of years.

Christians had truth before they ever had written stories telling about the man they called “the truth”.

Without Christ the bible turns into many bad things.

Southern slaves for example.

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