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Hi tow,
Rev 17
1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Hi tow,
Well she is of man and religion and is ensnared with the world's politics and is based in Rome.
let me think
ummI already mentioned it but maybe you mean more specifically that Rome based entity rather than the sect that comes from it. Yet they use the same bible you do, correct?
Hi tow,
Rome prefers her own versions as do most sects.
I use several.
Likewise I love Enoch and the other writings and the Apochrypha.Hi Is 1:18
Stu: But what of the commandment not to kill?
Quote Obviously there is a distinction to be made between cold blooded murder and putting someone t death. You need to read the whole Bible to get the big picture. YHWH also “commands” that certain offenses must be punished by death, like for instance: murder (Lev 24:17; Deu 19:11-13), idolatry (Lev 20:2; Deu 17:2-7), witchcraft (Lev 20:27), adultery (Lev 20:10; Deu 22:21,22), homosexuality (Lev 20:13), bestiality (Lev 20:15,16), rape (Deu 22:25-27), incest (Lev 20:17), and blasphemy (Lev 24:11-16,23). This was not done away with in the NT either, Romans 13 speaks of goverments being given the authority to “bear the sword” against evil. This is an obvious reference to capital punishment. Ezekiel 13:19
And will you profane Me… killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live…?
OK. So if these are capital offenses, would you want to see the judicial killing of blasphemers? Does it have any objective credibility to go back to the 13th Century and make witchcraft a capital offense? If not, you are already starting to pick and choose from Leviticus. If you can ignore one bit of it, why can’t you ignore all of it? The commandment itself does not make the distinction you are making.Stu: Is the commandment nulified by the hypocritical way god has broken his own law?
Quote Does the maker or all things, the giver of life and sustainer of the Universe not have the right to bring some of His own creation from one phase of existence into another?
Is this a euphemism for murdering someone? I’m not guilty your Honour, I was just bringing him from one phase of his existence into another. Actually I think that maybe christian fundamentalists really do think that they can wash their hands of the accused by executing them in the ‘knowledge’ that if they bring the accused to face their god, then the judgement will be a sound one at that point, whether or not they got the judgement right on earth. Now I think about it that was exactly the basis for dunking witches in medieval Europe.If there is no god then these people have committed the most callous injustice. It is a shame they can’t prove there is a god to justify this logic. Perhaps you don’t adhere to this idea though.
Stu: What credibility does a 'lawgiver' have if he himself does not obey the laws?
And: Stu: The deity that thus commands also breaks it when he himself judges others. Isn't judicial killing two examples in succession of breaking the orders of the celestial dictator who in any case can't follow his own principles?Quote See above.
I don’t think you gave an answer ‘above’.Stu: We may imprison people for the safety of others, but should we judge when we have been told not to judge others?
Quote Curiously, you continue to use biblical verses for your moral frame of reference.
No, you misunderstand. I am assuming your frame of reference and quizzing you on how consistent it is. I don’t believe a word of Leviticus and I think anyone who makes it a basis for a justice system or a moral code is not a christian (in the sense that Son of Light would describe, for example) and would be also a callous psychopathic bastard with no comprehension of humanity.Stu: I don't believe in any of this (apart from condemning the primitive logic that often supports the use of the death penalty) but I am curious about how you square your beliefs to obey and to ignore at the same time.
Quote I'm curious to know how you square your anti-death penalty stance with the evolutionary principle survival of the fittest. I mean isn't it overtly beneficial for our species to terminate the lives of those deletarious to the human species as a whole (e.g. those with a propensity for murder?).
Good question. The first point to be made here about evolution is that it is not a life philosophy. Some tried to make it one, but they are crackpots in my view. The second thing to say is that you may be right, that removing from the population of those with a tendency to kill may have an advantage but perhaps our behaviour is more complex because there are other competing effects like the advantages to be had in love and forgiveness. I think the principle of what you call the golden rule is a universal principle of collective human cultures, notwithstanding the fact that wars and cannibalism have overridden it as a consequence of instincts of tribalism. There is great survival advantage to be had in cooperation. Let’s say you have children and your siblings don’t. There is a genetic advantage to them if they help nurture your children because those children contain a large number of genes in common with their uncles and aunts. Maybe there is a resistance to killing because it goes against those other human qualities that help our survival.Quote WHAT IS THE BASIS FOR YOUR MORAL JUDGEMENT THAT ALL KILLING EXCEPT SELF DEFENSE IS WRONG?? You say killing is wrong. I ask you why? Why is it wrong? You continue to avoid this question Stuart.
Killing is wrong because I am programmed to say that and act on it by my genetic makeup and the conditioning that my culture has collectively imposed on me. Had I different parents and a different culture, maybe my view would be different. Further to that I have questioned why people kill others and realise that it is not to my advantage that others die, and that it causes them distress which is against my worldview of maximising happiness for as many as possible. OK, I know a particular criminal may have previously caused others greater distress but I can’t see how the answer to one killing is more killing. If the state says killing is wrong and brings a charge of murder against an accused, a death sentence would only show that killing is a way of solving a problem, or hypocritically that killing is right. The level of sophistication and understanding of why and in what circumstances people commit homicide is not enough to justify such barbarism. Execution is the most premeditated form of killing and is not justice for a person who has killed in a rage, when he was not in control of his reptillian brain. No excuses for the criminal, but execution is not an intelligent and rational answer to the question of why people go haywire. Might there be ways of fixing these people rather than doing away with them? So much for forgiveness!Can you justify state-sponsored execution in the terms I have used, or would you just point to Leviticus? Might god be morally unreliable on this point?
Stuart
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 09 2008,12:01) How can you love something you do not accept? G-d said to love others not books.
Hi tow,
Do you not love Harry Potter?Not really. The movies are OK, but I've seen better. Hardly read the books. Am I supposed to love all fiction?
Hi Tow,
Fiction is a prejudial term.
The full answers will only come later.
Meantime the precious sacred word of God is a lifeline.Hi tow,
The world as we know it is going under.
The boat everyone is having fun on
is heading for an iceberg.
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