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I would like to revive the conversation we had here. Stu ran away from it, but in another topic he is being brave and saying that I run away from defending things.
So let's continue this dialogue and I will post where the conversation left off in the next post.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 21 2013,00:26) Was it healthy behaviour for you to divert the discussion away from the points of science upon which you were abjectly wrong? Stuart
Is that an invitation to go back to the Hot Seat and back to where you agree that the Universe came from nothing.Good, I look forward to continuing. I assumed you ran off, but your fighting words here show me that this is unfinished business.
See you there with your gloves on.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 28 2013,22:41) So if I asked you Stu, Is there anything before the Big Bang?
You would say no. That means there was no things or no anything, or more simply put: NOTHING.
You have faith and a belief that there was Nothing and then SOMETHING appeared out of nothing.
Boy can I make a meal out of that.
Pass the salt please.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 28 2013,22:42) A) nothing STU
B) something CHARITY
C) someone (Consciousness) T8Let the games begin.
Who wants to take the first shot?
Here it is.Go.
Stu, please explain the mechanism or way that Universe arose or started from nothing.
I look forward to all the proof and examples to follow.This is a must answer question. To satisfy the question, you can say you have no proof or give the proof.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,21:02) Stu, please explain the mechanism or way that Universe arose or started from nothing.
I look forward to all the proof and examples to follow.This is a must answer question. To satisfy the question, you can say you have no proof or give the proof.
I'm not going to attempt questions that can't be answered. I think your fascist rules should include a tile for the poser of the question for any question that is unanswerable in the terms presented.However, tell me what you mean by nothing. Then we can discuss whether that is the likely origin of the universe or not. Don't forget that I have been very clear that there is no evidence (yet) that takes us any earlier than 0.0000000000001 seconds after the start of spacetime. If you want to go back further than that then you have do draw graphs that extrapolate back to that initial condition. Recent and future work of the LHC may push that limit back closer to t=0.
In regards to the word proof, there is no such thing as proof in this discussion. This is not a self-referential system like maths or philosophical proofs. There is evidence and provisional conclusion.
So. Nothing? What do you mean by that?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 09 2013,04:40) Quote (charity @ Mar. 08 2013,18:20) t8 If You Where present on the day they voted for Jesus who would you have to vote to death? Jesus or Barabbas?
should Jesus Have been able to finish What he was saying
Yes
NO
Is it right, That the six commandment be used as a punishment for a thief?
Yes
no!
Good questions charity.t8 might need the “maybe” option, as the bible isn't clear about what he should believe.
Stuart
Haven't read this before.Personally I would avoid voting to condemn anyone to death.
I don't want blood on my hands when I die.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,21:32) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 09 2013,04:40) Quote (charity @ Mar. 08 2013,18:20) t8 If You Where present on the day they voted for Jesus who would you have to vote to death? Jesus or Barabbas?
should Jesus Have been able to finish What he was saying
Yes
NO
Is it right, That the six commandment be used as a punishment for a thief?
Yes
no!
Good questions charity.t8 might need the “maybe” option, as the bible isn't clear about what he should believe.
Stuart
Haven't read this before.Personally I would avoid voting to condemn anyone to death.
I don't want blood on my hands when I die.
Good to see that you would prefer Jesus hadn't died for your sins.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:24) I'm not going to attempt questions that can't be answered. I think your fascist rules should include a tile for the poser of the question for any question that is unanswerable in the terms presented.
Wrong.But you are able to also answer, “I haven't got a clue”.
Mixing the sulfur now Stu.
Have another go.
Remember that Someone, Something, Nothing covers all bases. If you can add another option that is not any of these options and is valid, I will accept that.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,21:34) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:24) I'm not going to attempt questions that can't be answered. I think your fascist rules should include a tile for the poser of the question for any question that is unanswerable in the terms presented.
Wrong.But you are able to also answer, “I haven't got a clue”.
Mixing the sulfur now Stu.
Have another go.
Remember that Someone, Something, Nothing covers all bases. If you can add another option that is not any of these options and is valid, I will accept that.
You still haven't said what you mean by nothing. It could mean anything. A tile for you, I think t8. You are hypocritical in your demands from clarity from others when you refuse to give clarity yourself.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:34) Good to see that you would prefer Jesus hadn't died for your sins. Stuart
Illogical.He died for my sins because he did the will of his Father.
Not because I voted to kill him.Pretty obvious difference there Stu. Surprised that your conclusion was so wrong. Okay not surprised.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:37) You still haven't said what you mean by nothing.
No thing.
Non-existence.
The absence of something.Think of it as how existence came from non-existence.
Try typing 'nothing' into Google. It is a search engine. When you type in one word like 'nothing' if usually offers the definition of that word on the first page or at least links to a dictionary giving the meaning of the word.
I know you are capable Stu. Apes can do anything.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,21:37) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:34) Good to see that you would prefer Jesus hadn't died for your sins. Stuart
Illogical.He died for my sins because he did the will of his Father.
Not because I voted to kill him.Pretty obvious difference there Stu. Surprised that your conclusion was so wrong. Okay not surprised.
So your theology has your god telling the Romans to kill Jesus?Or is this another of those get-out-of-jail-free cards with “Mysterious ways” written on it?
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,21:40) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:37) You still haven't said what you mean by nothing.
No thing.
Non-existence.
The absence of something.Think of it as how existence came from non-existence.
Try typing 'nothing' into Google. It is a search engine. When you type in one word like 'nothing' if usually offers the definition of that word on the first page or at least links to a dictionary giving the meaning of the word.
I know you are capable Stu. Apes can do anything.
Quote No thing.
Non-existence.
The absence of something.
Well, in that case define “absence” and “something”.Quote Think of it as how existence came from non-existence.
The existence of what?Quote Try typing 'nothing' into Google. It is a search engine. When you type in one word like 'nothing' if usually offers the definition of that word on the first page or at least links to a dictionary giving the meaning of the word.
I didn't ask you what the Google dictionary says nothing is, I asked you what you mean by it. So far, thinking of the difficulty of the question you are asking, all we have from you is trivial platitudes.Are you including zero-point energy in your “nothing”? If not, why not? Is the absence of matter and energy all you mean? Are you asking for a theory of dark matter and dark energy as well? That is definitely a “don't know”, but then if you are after an explanation that includes those phenomena you had at least better be prepared to say you don't know either. What is the model of spacetime you are using when you say something and nothing? Quantum field theory? How does your concept of nothing deal with the spontaneous appearance of matter due to the expansion of spacetime?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:42) So your theology has your god telling the Romans to kill Jesus? Or is this another of those get-out-of-jail-free cards with “Mysterious ways” written on it?
Stuart
My theology is that God knew that the powers of darkness would kill him if they had the chance. God gave them the chance they were looking because they failed to see the wisdom that sin brings death and the repercussions of that. That being the case, the death of the son of God satisfied that law that demanded our death, thus enabling us to escape eternal death.On a smaller scale we often see law enforcement setting out bait to catch a killer. Or catching a drug dealer might require the police to set up a deal so that they fall into the net live on camera.
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:51) I didn't ask you what the Google dictionary says nothing is, I asked you what you mean by it. So far, thinking of the difficulty of the question you are asking, all we have from you is trivial platitudes.
The definition of nothing as found in a dictionary is what you should go by. I am not inventing a new word.I will save you the trouble in case you don't know how to use Google.
noth·ing [nuhth-ing] Show IPA
noun- no thing; not anything; naught
- something that is nonexistent.
- nonexistence; nothingness
Run with that Stu.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2013,08:50) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:42) So your theology has your god telling the Romans to kill Jesus? Or is this another of those get-out-of-jail-free cards with “Mysterious ways” written on it?
Stuart
My theology is that God knew that the powers of darkness would kill him if they had the chance. God gave them the chance they were looking because they failed to see the wisdom that sin brings death and the repercussions of that. That being the case, the death of the son of God satisfied that law that demanded our death, thus enabling us to escape eternal death.On a smaller scale we often see law enforcement setting out bait to catch a killer. Or catching a drug dealer might require the police to set up a deal so that they fall into the net live on camera.
Your theology has your god as a cop keen on entrapment. Nice. Except for drug dealing or murder substitute “just being a normal human”.So it's not the “Mysterious ways” get-out-of-jail-free card. It's the “Powers of darkness” get-out-of-jail-free card and the “Sin brings death” get-out-of-jail-free card and the “Eternal (whatever)” get-out-of-jail-free card.
You could have played “Mysterious ways” and kept the rest of your hand of platitudes for deployment on other occasions.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 26 2013,08:56) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 26 2013,00:51) I didn't ask you what the Google dictionary says nothing is, I asked you what you mean by it. So far, thinking of the difficulty of the question you are asking, all we have from you is trivial platitudes.
The definition of nothing as found in a dictionary is what you should go by. I am not inventing a new word.I will save you the trouble in case you don't know how to use Google.
noth·ing [nuhth-ing] Show IPA
noun- no thing; not anything; naught
- something that is nonexistent.
- nonexistence; nothingness
Run with that Stu.
Which sense?What do you mean by “thing” or “something” or “existence” in the context of the origins of the universe?
Once you have given the circular definitions of those, we will then have established the meaninglessness of your questions.
Stuart
Of course you could save it by addressing my other questions in a meaningful way:
Are you including zero-point energy in your “nothing”? If not, why not? Is the absence of matter and energy all you mean? Are you asking for a theory of dark matter and dark energy as well? That is definitely a “don't know”, but then if you are after an explanation that includes those phenomena you had at least better be prepared to say you don't know either. What is the model of spacetime you are using when you say something and nothing? Quantum field theory? How does your concept of nothing deal with the spontaneous appearance of matter due to the expansion of spacetime?
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 25 2013,21:32) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 09 2013,04:40) Quote (charity @ Mar. 08 2013,18:20) t8 If You Where present on the day they voted for Jesus who would you have to vote to death? Jesus or Barabbas?
should Jesus Have been able to finish What he was saying
Yes
NO
Is it right, That the six commandment be used as a punishment for a thief?
Yes
no!
Good questions charity.t8 might need the “maybe” option, as the bible isn't clear about what he should believe.
Stuart
Haven't read this before.Personally I would avoid voting to condemn anyone to death.
I don't want blood on my hands when I die.
t8, have we gone with out a king because his life was Taken, an The harvest eaten up by free will.Those that pierce him will they be forgiven? Free will can preach its own way out! Is it offensive to stop the roman empires free will by using our free will!
It's how the power is taken an used to create an end?
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