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- October 11, 2006 at 11:06 pm#30318epistemaniacParticipant
the Bible does not say that all tradition is bad… so do not let those who would add to the Scriptures their own traditions (ie the tradition that it has to be either the Bible OR tradition when it can be both) and additions to the Scriptures such that they go beyond what is written themselves in their effort to impose their own legalistic views…… for we have biblical proof that while the traditions of men are bad, there are some traditions, those received by Christians from the apostles, are good:
2Th 3:6 ESV Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.”
So the issue is this: we cannot automatically say that all traditions are bad, it first has to be established whether or not the tradition contradicts a clear biblical teaching… if it does, it is to be rejected, if it does not, then it can be embraced… notice the “can”? That is to say, traditions are not themselves binding on the conscience the same way a biblical teaching would be, it is up to the conscience of individuals in many cases as to whether or not a given activity is sinful or not. For instance, some believe that the worship service should have no musical instruments, and should have singing based solely on the Psalms. If that is what a person's conscience would have them follow, then they should do so… for to do otherwise would itself be sin… on the other hand, some think that an organ and/or a piano along with the hymnal is the extent of what should happen musically in the worship service, and others think that a “contemporary” service is permissible, with drums, electric and acoustic guitars, etc… in these cases, tradition is itself not automatically a matter of sin, of either the Bible or tradition. So it is not necessarily an either/or, the Bible or Tradition; rather, it can be both/and.To err on the side of saying all tradition is bad is to add to the Scriptures and is legalistic, however, to embrace tradition that is clearly unbiblical is sin and can possibly be based on an antinomian perspective.
blessings
October 11, 2006 at 11:47 pm#30320NickHassanParticipantHi E,
True but tradition has a way of exalting itself to be greater than the scriptures and therin lies the problem.Mk 7
“1Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.2And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”
The teachings of the second vatican council told catholics tradition was equivalent to scripture.
October 12, 2006 at 12:15 am#30321ProclaimerParticipantThe context is mans tradition.
Matthew 15:3
Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?Matthew 15:6
he is not to 'honor his father ' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.Mark 7:5
So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
” 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.I hope this helps.
October 12, 2006 at 12:45 am#30322NickHassanParticipantHi,
From the document on divine revelation in the catholic Vatican 2 Council documents.
”
CHAPTER II
HANDING ON DIVINE REVELATION7. In His gracious goodness, God has seen to it that what He had
revealed for the salvation of all nations would abide perpetually
in its full integrity and be handed on to all generations.
Therefore Christ the Lord in whom the full revelation of the
supreme God is brought to completion (see 2 Cor. 1:30; 3:15; 4:6),
commissioned the Apostles to preach to all men that Gospel which is
the source of all saving truth and moral teaching [1], and to
impart to them heavenly gifts. This Gospel had been promised in
former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled
it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was
faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching,
by example, and by observances handed on what they had received
from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He
did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy
Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and
apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit
committed the message of salvation to writing [2].But in order to keep the Gospel forever whole and alive within
the Church, the Apostles left bishops as their successors, “handing
over” to them “the authority to teach in their own place” [3].
This sacred tradition, therefore, and Sacred Scripture of both the
Old and New Testaments are like a mirror in which the pilgrim
Church on earth looks at God, from whom she has received
everything, until she is brought finally to see Him as He is, face
to face (see 1 John 3:2).8. And so the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a
special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved by an
unending succession of preachers until the end of time. Therefore
the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn
the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned
either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to
fight in defense of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jud.
3) [4]. Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything
which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith
of the People of God; and hands on to all generations all that she
herself is, all that she believes.This tradition which comes from the Apostles develops in the
Church with the help of the Holy Spirit [5]. For there is a growth
in the understanding of the realities and the words which have been
made by believers, who treasure these things in their hearts (see
Luke 2:19, 51), through a penetrating understanding of the
spiritual realities which they experience, and through the
preaching of those who have received through episcopal succession
the sure gift of truth. For as the centuries succeed one another,
the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine
truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in
her.The words of the holy Fathers witness to the presence of this
living tradition, whose wealth is poured into the practice and life
of the believing and praying Church. Through the same tradition
the Church's full canon of the sacred books is known, and the
sacred writings themselves are more profoundly understood and
unceasingly made active in her; and thus God, who spoke of old,
uninterruptedly converses with the bride of His beloved Son; and
the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel
resounds in the Church, and through her, in the world, leads unto
all truth those who believe and makes the Word of Christ dwell
abundantly in them (see Col. 3:16).9. Hence there exists a close connection and communication
between sacred tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them,
flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge
into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is
the Word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the
inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the
Word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the
Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity,
so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in
proclaiming it preserve this Word of God faithfully, explain it,
and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred
Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about
everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred
tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated
with the same sense of loyalty and reverence [6].10. Sacred tradition and sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit
of the Word of God, committed to the Church. Holding fast to this
deposit the entire holy people united with their shepherds remain
always steadfast in the teaching of the Apostles, in the common
life, in the breaking of the bread and in prayers (see Acts 8:42,
Greek text), so that holding to, practicing and professing the
heritage of the faith, it becomes on the part of the bishops and
faithful a single common effort [7].But the task of authentically interpreting the Word of God,
whether written or handed on [8], has been entrusted exclusively to
the living teaching office of the Church [9], whose authority is
exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not
above the Word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been
handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and
explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and
with the help of the Holy Spirit; it draws from this one deposit of
faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, sacred Scripture
and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God's most
wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot
stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own
way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute
effectively to the salvation of souls”November 2, 2006 at 7:30 pm#31573NickHassanParticipantHi,
So catholicism teaches that it's tradition is equal in validity to the scriptures.
It also teaches that only the catholic leadership can interpret scripture.Both teachings entrap men into following men and are evil.
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