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Quote So, there is very good evidence to substantiate my assertion that it was the pre-incarnate Yehsua that appeared to men as YHWH in the OT. This would make sense of the verse t8 used for his proof text – 1 John 4:12 – and properly accounts for the contradiction t8 faces which is God not being able to be seen, yet at the same time being seen. So at this point I pose this rhetorical question – after considering some of the passages cited thus far in my rebuttal, is 1 John 4:12 more problematic for trinitarians, or t8 himself??
I should have read your whole post. This is an interesting way of turning things around.
it was the pre-incarnate Yehsua that appeared to men as YHWH in the OT.
But no man has seen God.If they saw Jesus, and not Jehovah, what does that mean about Jesus? That he is not God?
For a second, what you were saying seemed to be clever. Upon futher investigation, I think I was wrong.
I think what you just said nullifies your whole argument.david
Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“it was the pre-incarnate Yehsua that appeared to men as YHWH in the OT.”
I AGREE DAVID.
So the inference is extended further to say that God can be seen by men if that God is Jesus.
Jesus has never been called by his Father's name.
You should not assume he has.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 01 2007,22:28) I think both are plausible, but on balance I would favour #1. This is because in consulting passages penned by John of the same basis theme (as 1 John 4:12) it’s explicit that “theos” does refer to the father. These three verses bear this out expressly: John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.So on this point let me state that I concur with t8, no one has ever seen the Father, this appears to be the only logical conclusion to draw from John’s writings above. But it’s even more scripturally obvious that men have seen YHWH. Which begs the question – if not he Father, then Who was the person described as YHWH that has been seen?
David,
Since it's quite obvious that John meant the Father when he wrote no one has seen “God”, and it's equally obvious that YHWH has been seen by men, maybe you could name a good candidate (as I have done) for the mysterious identity that kept popping up in the lives of the patriachs?A little less rhetoric would be good…..
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2007,15:34) Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“it was the pre-incarnate Yehsua that appeared to men as YHWH in the OT.”
I AGREE DAVID.
So the inference is extended further to say that God can be seen by men if that God is Jesus.
Jesus has never been called by his Father's name.
You should not assume he has.
What is the name which is above every name (Phillipians 2:9-11)?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2007,19:05) Hi Is 1.18,
Are we allowed to guess and the teach what we have guessed?
Yes. We are all allowed to draw logical conclusions from scripture and express an opinion Nick. It's not against the law.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 08 2007,19:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 08 2007,15:34) Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“it was the pre-incarnate Yehsua that appeared to men as YHWH in the OT.”
I AGREE DAVID.
So the inference is extended further to say that God can be seen by men if that God is Jesus.
Jesus has never been called by his Father's name.
You should not assume he has.
What is the name which is above every name (Phillipians 2:9-11)?
Hi Is 1.18,
Are we allowed to guess?
Surely you would not suggest he was to be called I AM WHO AM?
That is folly as it is a descriptive name and not personal.
Besides surely it goes against you cherished belief that it was always his name.
You have recently said he appeared under that name in the OT.
You can't have it both ways.Quote Surely you would not suggest he was to be called I AM WHO AM?
That is folly as it is a descriptive name and not personal.Exodus 6:2-3
God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD (YHWH) I did not make myself known to them.”YHWH didn't say but by My description I did not make myself known…..
Hi Is 1.18,
So the Living God gave men a name by which they could know Him and told them He has a beloved son. That Son was born and called Joshua or Yashua-God saves. You believe that YHWH had three aspects and one became YAHSHUA who later was given the name YHWH.Give up now.
It does not compute.
Don't continue to build more patches to try to defend this theological shemozzle.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 08 2007,19:52) So then, according to you “Jesus” is a higher name than YHWH? (Phillipians 2:9-11)
Hi Is 1,18,
Is the name of the Father God written in the verse you quote, or have you logically presumed it should be there?Hi Is 1.18,
What do you know of names that you can make this presumption?If I called you George Bush would that affect you in any way?
Would you instantly become The President of the USA?
Would there be two Presidents of the USA?You have claimed Jesus is YHWH from eternity anyway
so pray tell
what is this fuss you make now about this new announcement?DEUTERONOMY 4:33
“Has any other people heard the voice of God speaking out of the middle of the fire the way you yourself have heard it, and kept on living?”DEUTERONOMY 5:4
“Face to face Jehovah spoke with YOU in the mountain out of the middle of the fire.”DEUTERONOMY 5:24-25
“Then YOU said, ‘Here Jehovah our God has shown us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the middle of the fire. This day we have seen that God may speak with man and he may actually keep living. And now why should we die, for this great fire may consume us? If we are again hearing the voice of Jehovah our God any further, we are also certain to die.”DEUTERONOMY 5:27
“You yourself go near and hear all that Jehovah our God will say; and you will be the one to speak to us all that Jehovah our God will speak to you, and we shall certainly listen and do.’”THESE SCRIPTURES SPEAK OF PEOPLE “HEARING” THE “VOICE OF GOD” HIM SPEAKING “FACE TO FACE” AND JEHOVAH “SPEAKING” AND OTHERS “LISTENING.” THEY “HEARD HIS VOICE” AND WERE “HEARING HIS VOICE.”
So, one could go no further and ignore the rest of the Bible and wrongly conclude that it was Jehovah himself who was speaking.
Yet…..
ACTS 7:38
“This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Si′nai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU.”ACTS 7:53
“YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it.””HEBREWS 2:2
“For if the word spoken through angels proved to be firm, and every transgression and disobedient act received a retribution in harmony with justice;”GALATIANS 3:19
“….it [the law] was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.”Is this a contradiction?
We have one part of the Bible saying that it was God who was speaking. It says this clearly many times.
And we have many other scriptures saying he used angels.Look at the command:
“‘I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 7 You must never have any other gods against my face. (DEUT 5:6,7)
It seems as though it is very clearly saying Jehovah is speaking. Yet what do all those other scriptures say? That the law was transmitted through angels. This is obvioulsy not a contradiction. Jehovah used angels.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 08 2007,23:03) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 01 2007,22:28) I think both are plausible, but on balance I would favour #1. This is because in consulting passages penned by John of the same basis theme (as 1 John 4:12) it’s explicit that “theos” does refer to the father. These three verses bear this out expressly: John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.So on this point let me state that I concur with t8, no one has ever seen the Father, this appears to be the only logical conclusion to draw from John’s writings above. But it’s even more scripturally obvious that men have seen YHWH. Which begs the question – if not he Father, then Who was the person described as YHWH that has been seen?
David,
Since it's quite obvious that John meant the Father when he wrote no one has seen “God”, and it's equally obvious that YHWH has been seen by men, maybe you could name a good candidate (as I have done) for the mysterious identity that kept popping up in the lives of the patriachs?A little less rhetoric would be good…..
These children of Arius already know who this “mysterious identity” is but they continue trying to put the twist on scripture. Perhaps it is because of their JW heritage.
Jesus said:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.With solemn dignity Jesus answered the Pharasees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
I AM. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by Jesus. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent Jehovah, He who had been promised to Israel. Jesus is God Jehovah who spoke to Moses face to face from the burning bush.
Exo 33:11 And the LORD (Jehovah) spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
David
Quote It seems as though it is very clearly saying Jehovah is speaking. Yet what do all those other scriptures say? That the law was transmitted through angels. This is obvioulsy not a contradiction. Jehovah used angels. Get real David! The word angel means “messenger”.
Hi CB,
You say
“With solemn dignity Jesus answered the Pharasees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”I AM. The name of God,”
pssst.
I AM WHO AM.
Did you not know the Son too was before Abraham?
You should believe him.Quote Get real David! The word angel means “messenger”. Cult Guy, So your Bible has “messenger” in these places?
Actually, the word angel doesn't mean messenger, as you say. But the word translated “angel” is the exact same word that is translated “messenger.” They are the same word. If one were to say as you do that “angel” means messenger, you could just as wrongly say that messenger means angel.
Does your Bible say “messenger” in these places? If your Bible doesn't say “messenger” in these places, when that seems to be what you suggest it should say, does that mean that those who translated the Bible's you use are wrong?
Or are you wrong?Question: Why does what you say so very often have not the slightest to do with what we are discussing? Seems like you're trying to hypnotize us or something, by repeating the same things without even thinking yourself. Sounds like you belong to some sort of cult or something. Try conversing with people. It's fun. And you may learn something or at least snap out of that trance you seem to be in. (I'm sorry for saying these things, but what else can I conclude?)
David
Quote What we have here, is
1. –a number of scriptures which are very clear, that no man has seen God or may see God and live.
2. –And we have other scriptures that make it seem that people have seen God.
3. –other accounts that say that people have seen God, whereas complentary scriptures make clear that it was really angels.So, in view of #1, which is clear and number #3, it's hard to look at #2 and say that these were actually seeing Jehovah without this being a huge contradiction.
#3 allows for another possibility, the correct one.David. The contradiction is not in scripture. The contradiction is in your arian Watchtower doctrine which has God as only one person.
The Bible Godhead doctrine is in perfect harmony with scripture and easily explains what the arians find confounding.
However cults like the Jehovah's Witnesses with their strange beliefs need to twist scripture to try make things fit. You can see why the JWs now have their own Bible interpretation the NWT.
Exo 33:11 And the LORD (Jehovah) spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
David. When you speak face to face with your friends do you use angels?
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