Trinity – t8's proof text #3

[Is 1:18]

“For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them” (Mt 18:20)

Have you even seen Yeshua at a prayer meeting you attended?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 04 2007,19:55)

Here's the parallel passage to 1 Tim 1:17: 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15which He will bring about at the proper time–He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. Question: Who is the King of kings and Lord of lords? (Clue: read Revelation 17:14, 19:16)

You didn' answer this question. How many “King of kings and Lord of lords” are there in your opinion?

[Proclaimer]

Can't answer the question so ask other questions. The old diversionary tactic trick.

Yes or no, is the ONLY GOD invisible?

The scripture in Revelation you ask about would be a good candidate for your next proof text and I look forward to it, if it is.

But I would like an answer to the Invisible God being the only God. After all that is the topic here.

It seems that Timothy and Paul taught that the only God was invisible, that is if Timothy believed what Paul was teaching him of course.

But what do you teach?

Is the ONLY God invisible or not?

Yes or no? I am not asking for an essay at this point. Just yes or no.

[Is 1:18]

YHWH, the only God, is invisible yes. But can be visible too, as many scriptures attest to.

I answered. Your turn.

[Proclaimer]

Matthew 5:37
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Yes or no.

[Is 1:18]

I answered.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 04 2007,20:37)

“For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them” (Mt 18:20) Have you even seen Yeshua at a prayer meeting you attended?

Can you answer this one first?

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 04 2007,20:40)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 04 2007,19:55) Here's the parallel passage to 1 Tim 1:17: 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15which He will bring about at the proper time–He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. Question: Who is the King of kings and Lord of lords? (Clue: read Revelation 17:14, 19:16) You didn' answer this question. How many “King of kings and Lord of lords” are there in your opinion?

Then this one….

[Is 1:18]

Gotta go…look forward to reading your answers tomorrow.

[Proclaimer]

I asked you if the only GOD is invisible which is the topic at hand.

And your final answer is YES and NO.

Before we move on from this point we need to fully look at the answer you have given, which is also keeping with the topic and is good for accountability. Please be patient.

Look at these scripture again.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….

1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Now before we change the subject we shouldn't pass this point as it is the crux of the topic and the answer you have given.

These scriptures differ with your YES NO answer do they not? You do not agree with the following 3 conclusions taken from these scriptures:

[Cult Buster]

94

Quote

You have a habit of adding your little tid-bit to God's Word.  The scripture says that no man has ever seen God that includes Moses, and nothing is said about Christ.

t8

Quote

Never mind for now that there are Old Testament scriptures that say that men saw God, you have to admit that as it stands now, you disagree strongly with John, Paul, and Timothy.

It's time for a Bible study boys!

Joh 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV)

Arians including the JWs sect say that Jesus is not God because no man has seen God, but men saw Jesus. In saying this, however, they miss the point of John 1:18. Here the term God is used in a restrictive sense in reference to the Father–just as it is used in reference to the Son at Isaiah 9:6. Context at Isaiah 9:6 reveals that God in that verse is the “child” who is born, the “son” who is given, yet this cannot be used to prove that the Father is not God.

So, the fact that the title God is used specifically of the Father at certain other verses–such as John 1:18–cannot be used as an argument against the deity of Christ.

It is the Father who “no man has ever seen.”  The words at John 1:18 roughly parallel those of John 6:46, “No-one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.”

These verses are referring to God the Father because Thomas saw God the Son when  he exclaimed “my Lord and my God”

Did anyone ever see God face to face?

The Bible is very clear on this question:

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. (John 6:46)

These are important verses, since they tell us no one has seen God. Yet, we know from the Old Testament that people did see God. For example

Exodus 24:9-11:
Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel.

Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Consider also Genesis 18, where Abraham has three visitors, one of whom turns out to be the Lord: Yahweh.

Look at Isaiah 6:1-3 where Isaiah saw God “high and lifted up” in the same way he saw the Seraphim;

In Numbers 12:6-8 it tells us that Moses spoke to God face to face, rather than through visions or dreams, and that he sees “the form of God”;
Also Judges 13:20-23 explains that the father of Samson is afraid he might die because he has seen God. He is comforted by his wife when she points out that God would not have accepted their offering if he intended to kill them.

Job 42:5 says that Job saw God.

The arians on this forum try to put the twist on scripture when it does not support them, but I cannot help them with their problem.

Since no one has seen the Father, the only conclusion, then, is that the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is none other than the Jesus!

This isn't so surprising considering that Romans 10:9-13 records:

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul has here quoted from Joel 2:32

Joe 2:32  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered:

Paul applies this statement to Christ.

Look also at Acts 2:21 where the same passage is quoted from Joel concerning Jehovah and Peter  applies it to Jesus.

Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.  

Since no one has seen the Father, the only conclusion, then, is that the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is none other than the Jesus! Once again we see that Jesus is Jehovah God

Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Cult Buster]

We have already established that Jesus of Nazareth is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. Consider now how Isaiah saw the Lord (Jesus) as described in Isaiah 6.

Isa 6:1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2  Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4  And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5  Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts.

We have already established the fact that no man has seen the Father at anytime and therefore that the Lord whom Isaiah saw can have been none other than Jesus Christ.

Also, he says in verse 5 that he saw the King, the Lord of Hosts. Isaiah then tells what happened to him when he was overcome with his own unworthiness by his witnessing the holiness and glory of the Lord Jesus (Jehovah). He received a commission to go and speak to his own people even though they would not listen.

Will the arians on this forum ever listen to the words of scripture?

Isa 6:10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
Before you teach you should learn and understand about God and His Son.
Yet you say
“We have already established that Jesus of Nazareth is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. “
ummm.

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You say
“Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul has here quoted from Joel 2:32

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered”

Really.
Did Paul say so or are you just guessing?

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You say,
“So, the fact that the title God is used specifically of the Father at certain other verses–such as John 1:18–cannot be used as an argument against the deity of Christ.”

How many deities do you have CB?
You should abhor polytheism.
Come out of her and join US.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 05 2007,02:24)

94 Quote You have a habit of adding your little tid-bit to God's Word.  The scripture says that no man has ever seen God that includes Moses, and nothing is said about Christ. t8 Quote Never mind for now that there are Old Testament scriptures that say that men saw God, you have to admit that as it stands now, you disagree strongly with John, Paul, and Timothy. It's time for a Bible study boys! Joh 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18 KJV) Arians including the JWs sect say that Jesus is not God because no man has seen God, but men saw Jesus. In saying this, however, they miss the point of John 1:18. Here the term God is used in a restrictive sense in reference to the Father–just as it is used in reference to the Son at Isaiah 9:6. Context at Isaiah 9:6 reveals that God in that verse is the “child” who is born, the “son” who is given, yet this cannot be used to prove that the Father is not God. So, the fact that the title God is used specifically of the Father at certain other verses–such as John 1:18–cannot be used as an argument against the deity of Christ. It is the Father who “no man has ever seen.”  The words at John 1:18 roughly parallel those of John 6:46, “No-one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.” These verses are referring to God the Father because Thomas saw God the Son when  he exclaimed “my Lord and my God” Did anyone ever see God face to face? The Bible is very clear on this question: Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. (John 6:46) These are important verses, since they tell us no one has seen God. Yet, we know from the Old Testament that people did see God. For example Exodus 24:9-11: Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank. Consider also Genesis 18, where Abraham has three visitors, one of whom turns out to be the Lord: Yahweh. Look at Isaiah 6:1-3 where Isaiah saw God “high and lifted up” in the same way he saw the Seraphim; In Numbers 12:6-8 it tells us that Moses spoke to God face to face, rather than through visions or dreams, and that he sees “the form of God”; Also Judges 13:20-23 explains that the father of Samson is afraid he might die because he has seen God. He is comforted by his wife when she points out that God would not have accepted their offering if he intended to kill them. Job 42:5 says that Job saw God. The arians on this forum try to put the twist on scripture when it does not support them, but I cannot help them with their problem. Since no one has seen the Father, the only conclusion, then, is that the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is none other than the Jesus! This isn't so surprising considering that Romans 10:9-13 records: Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Paul has here quoted from Joel 2:32 Joe 2:32  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered: Paul applies this statement to Christ. Look also at Acts 2:21 where the same passage is quoted from Joel concerning Jehovah and Peter  applies it to Jesus. Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.   Since no one has seen the Father, the only conclusion, then, is that the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is none other than the Jesus! Once again we see that Jesus is Jehovah God Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

CB

How true!

The problem with the unbelievers in the Lord\YHWY from heaven is, they use scriptures that support what they want and, since the others contradict they just throw them out.

For example, it is obvious as you and Isa 1:18 has shown OT scriptures show Unambiguously that God\YHWY was seen, and the Apostles support this, however since they dont believe YHWH is Christ or Jesus is God then rather than accept the OT scriptures, they Just say it cant be, because Jesus is not God\YHWH.

1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Isa 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Pil 2:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Paul clearly taking a scripture spoken by YHWH and ascribing it to Jesus and yet making the distinction between him and the Father.

This is obvious that Paul believed Yeshua is the Lord God from heaven in the flesh. Other scriptures also bear this out.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Is your God so small that He can be seen on tiny earth with petite human eyes?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2007,08:53)

Hi W, Is your God so small that He can be seen on tiny earth with petite human eyes?

NH

Is your God so small that he cannot take on the likeness of sinful flesh and show his Glory to the world!

Is there anything impossible to him?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You should not make a man, even the man from heaven, your God.
You should already have a God and know Him, his God.
That God manifested in the man from heaven

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2007,09:35)

Hi W, You should not make a man, even the man from heaven, your God. You should already have a God and know Him, his God. That God manifested in the man from heaven

NH

Get over it!

He is the Lord from heaven!

You should believe him!

[Author]

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