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Stumbled across this while looking at something else, but this gets back to the original posts of the is thread on 1 John 4:12.
1Jn 4:12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
The following may have been brough up in this thread, but I've seen many use it to say Moses spoke with God so he must have seen God. The following brings this into doubt:
Act 7:38 “This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.
Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.
When I looked Acts 7:38 up on biblegateway.com, it referenced to Ex 19:17
Exo 19:17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain.
Whatever the case, here in Acts 7:38 and 53 it speaks of Moses speaking to an angel and that the law was ordained by angels! This also goes along with the following
Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator [Moses], until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
This provides more evidence that when people spoke of seeing God, that it could indeed have been an angel of God, not Himself. After all, the angels were sent to represent God to the people, as no mortal can look upon God and live.
i have been reading this thread with interest becos questioning the validity of the trinity doctrine is something that is so totally new to me, i didn't even know people questioned it…..
a little background first so u know where im coming from.
as a child i was brought up in a trinitarian church and i remember that when i was explained the doctrine around 10 or 11 years old, it seemed rather foreign to me. prior to that, as a child, i always had the understanding that Jesus was the Son of God and that his Father was God Almighty.
but upon being taught the trinity doctrine, i was quite taken by surprise at the way the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost was depicted…. i mean the Three in One idea is not really that easy to grasp. professing not to understand the concept behind it, i was then told that God was beyond our limited human understanding. which, i suppose, is not an unreasonable explanation, as i do believe God is so limitless and so great that to claim all understanding might quite well be impossible.
so from then on i tried to read everything in the scriptures with the understanding i had gotten from trinity concepts, and found that it could also work….if i understood things a certain way, it seems our minds can channel our perspectives accordingly.
2 years later i left church, becos as a teenager, i had decided church was not really relevant. yet i would still speak to God whenever i was in a lurch, being the pathetic human being that i was, only communicating with Him when i had to… and many times, he still kept me safe…..
and now, after all these years, of disobedience and selfishness, God has drawn me to Him again. has humbled my heart so i can finally listen… i've asked Him in prayer for wisdom and understanding, to know my Creator, to know my Saviour, and so for the last 2 months, i've been searching physically and through the internet for a church that i can have fellowship at, and that's how i came across this site.
i've read with great interest T8's writings on the trinity, and read through this entire discussion in the last 3 days. i can see that both sides contain arguments (not every one, but quite a few, i must say) that must be taken seriously and while i applaud the contributors for their diligence in scripture
it saddens me at times to see the retorts and rebuttals get a little less than friendly 
becos i can see that most of you are earnestly trying to seek God and glorify Him… and as such winning or losing an argument is really secondary. if u believe truly and strongly and WITHOUT A DOUBT what you are teaching is the truth then i believe, God knows our hearts and will guide us. however, if you have even the SLIGHTEST DOUBT that something you teach might be incorrect, then refrain from teaching it. because i believe, God who knows our hearts, will judge us accordingly.
as for myself, i will honestly say that i cannot yet say with certainty whether or not the trinity doctrine is false, i think the case against the trinity is compelling, in fact i am more inclined towards that but the case for it is not junk either ….
God bless!
Thanks for your post What Counts.
The first thing that should stick out to any questioning person is why this so-called foundational doctrine is never taught in scripture.
Jesus, Paul, Peter, or John, never mentioned it. The Old Testament never mentions it either and hence why the Jews will never embrace it.
If the Bereans heard this doctrine, they would have turned to scripture to see if it were so.
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.In fact the one who taught the Trinity almost as it appears today was Athanasius of Alexandria, and hundreds of years later I might add. Doesn't that at least raise some suspicion? It was then enforced by a Roman Emperor, yes the same emperor of the empire that is called a beast in Revelation. Perhaps the woman dressed in purple riding the beast is an apt description of what we are looking at here.
Anyway Matthew 28:20 says:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.So there we have it. Teaching all that he commanded. Well what part of the bible does Jesus teach this so-called foundational doctrine of the Trinity? It doesn't.
The answer for me is what Paul said:
Acts 20:29-31
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;We need to guard our doctrine closely and be like the Bereans to see if what people say is written. I think that is fair enough to say, and in light of what Paul taught above, I would say it is wise.
Thanks for listening What Counts.
One must ask “is what we have been taught in our past true”? Does it stand up to scripture and where did it come from?
As t8 points out the Trinity doctrine came centuries latter. Is the bible the complete letter from God? The “letter” starts from the beginning to the end of the age, then into the future of the new kingdom.
I must point out that as the Trinity doctrine came latter so did Sunday worship and from the same source.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 21 2007,00:40) I must point out that as the Trinity doctrine came latter so did Sunday worship and from the same source.
What source would that be Ken? the RCC? Lets assume for a minute that Athanasius was the originator of the trinity doctrine, and that it was not concieved before his time (as unlikely as that is). Was Athanasius a member of the roman catholic church? At what date was the RCC formed?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,12:17) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 21 2007,00:40) I must point out that as the Trinity doctrine came latter so did Sunday worship and from the same source.
What source would that be Ken? the RCC? Lets assume for a minute that Athanasius was the originator of the trinity doctrine, and that it was not concieved before his time (as unlikely as that is). Was Athanasius a member of the roman catholic church? At what date was the RCC formed?
Tell me IS where did you hear of the Trinity? Was it the RCC OR one of her daughters.Can't remember to be honest. I didn't really consider it until a few years ago. Most denominations teach it Ken, you do know this right? It's not an exclusively catholic doctrine, far from it.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,15:39) Can't remember to be honest. I didn't really consider it until a few years ago. Most denominations teach it Ken, you do know this right? It's not an exclusively catholic doctrine, far from it.
Sure it is Her daughters teach the same as their Mother. That's what make them her daughters they keep her doctrines.That's why Christians are called to come out of her.
thanks for ur reply T8, as i've said before the case against the Trinity doctrine seems pretty compelling so far. it actually coincides with my understanding, as a child, of God the Father and Jesus His Son. a rather simple understanding i must say, it is the way i wud relate to any Father-Son relationship except of course keeping in mind that this is GOD and HIS SON (and that Divinity and all of Creation was involved). hence when i was taught the Trinity Doctrine, it was very confusing for me…. yet i accepted it then becos, i felt that perhaps i didn't know enough, i was a child then and all these men had studied the Scriptures for years, referenced it, researched…. why shud i argue against people like that, especially since they were good Christian people who, from what i had known about them, were only seeking to please God and glorify HIM.
but i see u've also brought up ur argument with lots of research and referencing. and i've been checking up on these Scripture references and so far they seem pretty sound….
If these four tenets are scriptural then the trinity doctrine is likewise:
1. There is only One true God.
2. The Father is true God.
3. The Son is true God.
4. The Holy Spirit is true God.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,16:10) If these four tenets are scriptural then the trinity doctrine is likewise: 1. There is only One true God.
2. The Father is true God.
3. The Son is true God.
4. The Holy Spirit is true God.
Is 1:18Amen!
So true. A close look at all scriptures shows that to be true.
Men try to explain away scriptures like Jn 1:1 and 20:28, Rev 1:8 Isa 9:6 and Heb 1:8 Etc, rather than just accept the scriptures for what they say.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 21 2007,16:31) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,16:10) If these four tenets are scriptural then the trinity doctrine is likewise: 1. There is only One true God.
2. The Father is true God.
3. The Son is true God.
4. The Holy Spirit is true God.
Is 1:18Amen!
So true. A close look at all scriptures shows that to be true.
Men try to explain away scriptures like Jn 1:1 and 20:28, Rev 1:8 Isa 9:6 and Heb 1:8 Etc, rather than just accept the scriptures for what they say.
Yes….and multitudes of others….Hope you're well WJ. Good to see you are still here!
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,16:10) If these four tenets are scriptural then the trinity doctrine is likewise: 1. There is only One true God.
2. The Father is true God.
3. The Son is true God.
4. The Holy Spirit is true God.
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.OK, Jesus acknowledges that his Father is the true God and that this true God sent him.
It doesn't say:
Now this is eternal life, that they may know only true God, the Father, Son, Spirit.
and 1 Corinthians 8:6 says:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
It doesn't say:
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, Son, Spirit.
The words in purple above are just not written in scripture and no matter how much you try to preach it, it isn't going to miraculously appear in the bible.
Flogging the dead horse called the Trinity Doctrine, isn't going to make it come alive. It is dead, just accept it.
Scripture rebukes it and people are starting to trust what scripture says over man.
Looks like a 2 pronged attack.
The Trinitarians are back and the Unitarians are going hard over on the preexistence discussion.
OK, we need some reinforcements.
Or maybe the Trinitarians and the Unitarians could battle it out for a while, so as to tire each other out. And those who trust in God, not man, who are not swayed by man's doctrines could rest a while and explore the wonders in scripture together.
Then when the Trinitarians and the Unitarians a stuffed, we will take our victory.
OK, sounds like a good plan, but things never work out that simply. The Oneness, JWs, Mormons, or Moonies might turn up too, then we will need a rethink.
Honestly guys, it's no wonder the world doesn't believe that Jesus was sent by God. In fact it was this very thing that stopped me looking for truth, when I was an atheist. I looked at those who read the bible and saw groups of people saying “we are the way, no we are the way”, no we are the way.
But Jesus is the way people. If you truly follow him, you will be in unity one with another. But if you only want to hear what your itching ears want to hear, then you will divide into groups with like itches, so you can scratch each others ears.
What a shambles.
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 21 2007,22:49) Looks like a 2 pronged attack. The Trinitarians are back and the Unitarians are going hard over on the preexistence discussion.
OK, we need some reinforcements.
Or maybe the Trinitarians and the Unitarians could battle it out for a while, so as to tire each other out. And those who trust in God, not man, who are not swayed by man's doctrines could rest a while and explore the wonders in scripture together.
Then when the Trinitarians and the Unitarians a stuffed, we will take our victory.
OK, sounds like a good plan, but things never work out that simply. The Oneness, JWs, Mormons, or Moonies might turn up too, then we will need a rethink.
Honestly guys, it's no wonder the world doesn't believe that Jesus was sent by God. In fact it was this very thing that stopped me looking for truth, when I was an atheist. I looked at those who read the bible and saw groups of people saying “we are the way, no we are the way”, no we are the way.
But Jesus is the way people. If you truly follow him, you will be in unity one with another. But if you only want to hear what your itching ears want to hear, then you will divide into groups with like itches, so you can scratch each others ears.
What a shambles.
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
t8You say…
Quote
I looked at those who read the bible and saw groups of people saying “we are the way, no we are the way”, no we are the way.Funny, you are saying the same thing by making this post.
You think your truth and your sight is the way.
You think your interpretation of the scriptures is the way.
Hey WJ, I am not saying I am right.
I am saying scripture is and that if you claim to have truth, then it should be scriptural.
That is why I teach that there is one God the Father and that he made Jesus Lord.
I repeat scripture. That is all.
Sure if I go beyond that, then it is an opinion. But so long as I stick to scripture, you cannot fault me, unless you fault scripture.
Here in lies the reason why we can fault your teaching. You do not rely on scripture. You rely on a creed or the wisdom of man, namely the Trinity and then use or twist scripture to support your predefined creed.
I start with scripture and try to understand it.
There is a difference WJ.
Like I have said before, if you start with your own understanding and then use scripture you finish with your own understanding.
You are better off starting with scripture and letting it teach you rather than you teaching it.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,16:10) If these four tenets are scriptural then the trinity doctrine is likewise: 1. There is only One true God.
2. The Father is true God.
3. The Son is true God.
4. The Holy Spirit is true God.
You neglected one important tenant that you also need to factor in to this man-made doctrine.Can you guess what it is. I will give you a clue.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 30 2007,14:52) Hey WJ, I am not saying I am right. I am saying scripture is and that if you claim to have truth, then it should be scriptural.
That is why I teach that there is one God the Father and that he made Jesus Lord.
I repeat scripture. That is all.
Sure if I go beyond that, then it is an opinion. But so long as I stick to scripture, you cannot fault me, unless you fault scripture.
Here in lies the reason why we can fault your teaching. You do not rely on scripture. You rely on a creed or the wisdom of man, namely the Trinity and then use or twist scripture to support your predefined creed.
I start with scripture and try to understand it.
There is a difference WJ.
Like I have said before, if you start with your own understanding and then use scripture you finish with your own understanding.
You are better off starting with scripture and letting it teach you rather than you teaching it.
t8You sat…
Quote
There is a difference WJ.Like I have said before, if you start with your own understanding and then use scripture you finish with your own understanding.
You are better off starting with scripture and letting it teach you rather than you teaching it.
Well look again because that is what the Unitarians and Arians and the JWs and the Mormons are sayng.
Maybe you should start from the beginning like the Trinitarians…
In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Oh but of course your interpretation is the correct one!!!
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