Trinity – t8's proof text #3

[Mr. Steve]

When Isaiah said he saw the Lord it was in a vision. Moses witnessed the brightness of the glory of God and his face was made to shine. When the word says that no man hath seen God at any time its not that God is invisible. God could manifest himself and has done so in various forms like the burning bush. What prevents us from seeing God is that he dwells in the light which no man can approach due to our humanity. However, when he appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

To Nick;

You said that “in the beginning” was before Genesis. Are you agreeing with my premise then in whole or in part that because there is no place in scripture that indicates Christ did not exist and that he created all things that he is the eternal son of God? If we are to declare the truth as presented in the Word of God, are we adding to the truth by declaring that Christ was created when the scriptures do not declare that Christ was created. On the contrary, Christ created all things by the power given to him from his God and Father. It appears to me that if we believe that Christ was created we are declaring a statement of is our own reasoning thereby establishing a doctrine upon presumption. It's ironic because most of us on this site abhor beliefs that are not scripturally supported like the trinity. We see clearly in scripture that Christ is subject to the Father and that Christ worships and prays to the Father, but we never read that the Son of God was created. This appears to be a mystery that cannot be understood without spiritual insight. We know that the Father exalted Christ and that he pleased the Father in all things, but the exaltation must have been before the beginning of our age because Christ created the world. Since we do know the beginning of Christ other than he has always been the Son of God we can only conclude that it pleased the Father to limit our knowledge in this respect and to believe that Christ is the eternal Son of God for doctrinal purposes. We can only speculate beyond that spiritual juncture so such a notion that Christ is not the eternal Son of God must be dismissed as speculation and extinguished as part of our doctrine of the Godhead. With the most respect. Take care Nick.

Mr. Steve

[NickHassan]

Hi Mr S,
No scripture says Christ was created.
It does say in Revelation that he is the beginning of the creation of God.

It also says he is the one through whom God created all things.
So scripture does not state he was created and if it did then all creation would not have come through him.

Trinitarians who are aware Christ existed before his conception realise there is a problem thereby concerning his sonship to God. They must forever hold their foundational trinity doctrine and to do so have engineered a system they think might explain it.

So arose the concept of an eternal begettal.

They must declare Jesus was ever an aspect of God and had no beginning himself as sons, by definition, do. They see him as a aspect of God Himself and that God came in the flesh-which is antichrist[1Jn4].

So they say he is eternal in retrospect and ever in the process of becoming a son
but never quite does so.

Lies built in defense of lies.

He was begotten of God.
That is written[ps2]

[Cult Buster]

Hi Nick.

Your doctrine is founded on freemasonry not scripture.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m

The scripture plainly states that all things were created by (dia) Christ.
In some translations it says “through”, but through actually means by.

dia
dee-ah'
In composition it retains the same general import: – after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

Your “jesus” is not the real Jesus, but antichrist. (another Christ).

2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

[Cult Buster]

The scripture tells us that all things were created by Jesus and for Him.

Arian folks. I know that you  don't like scriptural context instead to focus on a single word out of context and try to make it fit your false theology.

Quote Is 1:18

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Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation. Heb 1:10  And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Psa 102:25  Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. It is clear from the above verses of Is 1:18 that Christ is the Creator God of Psalm 102:25.

Refering to Jesus;
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him

Created by Who and for Who?    
Folk. Your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. It is “another Jesus”.

The Bible also tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation.

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.

Job 33:4  The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

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Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God. Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Col 1:16-17)

Get you catch that arians? Look again!

'all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.'

Only God was before all things created.

Christ the Word of God was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.

– – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
(Psa 33:6)

Who was this Word of God, the Creator?

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,  

The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!

– – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”

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Jehovah alone created the universe. See the following. Isa 44:24  Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;   Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities or agents outside of the Godhead. It's very clear. (God) Job 9:8  Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. Heb 3:4  For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe.   Jesus is the Creator  Jehovah God .

The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.

The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His own unborrowed power.

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Let us take a closer look at John chapter one. John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.” Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.”  Let me break it down into three statements. “In beginning was the word…” (en arche en ho logos) “and the word was with the God…” (kai ho logos en pros ton theon) “and God was the word.” (kai theos en ho logos) — Properly translated as “and the Word was God.” So that there is no confusion as to whom this God is that is called the Word. See V14. It is Jesus our Jehovah God. Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

It is clear that Jesus is Jehovah God

Your doctrine is founded on freemasonary not scripture.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m

The scripture plainly states that all things were created by Christ.
In some translations it says “through, but through actually means by.

dia
dee-ah'
In composition it retains the same general import: – after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
 

[NickHassan]

Hi CB,
You triune God is not in the bible
so what are you based on?

[kejonn]

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 29 2007,08:38)

Hi Nick. Your doctrine is founded on freemasonry not scripture. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m The scripture plainly states that all things were created by (dia) Christ. In some translations it says “through”, but through actually means by. dia dee-ah' In composition it retains the same general import: – after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import. Your “jesus” is not the real Jesus, but antichrist. (another Christ). 2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Actually? How can you make such a bold assertion that “by” is the only proper rendering when you listed so many different possibilities? You merely highlighted “by” and ignored that “through” was also in the list of potential words. Special pleading.

Here is the listing on blueletterbible.com for “dia”

1) through

a) of place

1) with

2) in

b) of time

1) throughout

2) during

c) of means

1) by

2) by the means of

2) through

a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

1) by reason of

2) on account of

3) because of for this reason

4) therefore

5) on this account

This is another instance wherre you base your theology on shaky ground. Translate it as “by” and you can support the Trinity, translate it as “through” and it cannot. Weak.

[Worshipping Jesus]

kejonn

You say…

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This is another instance wherre you base your theology on shaky ground. Translate it as “by” and you can support the Trinity, translate it as “through” and it cannot. Weak.

I disagree!

Party #1 says I am gonna build a house.

Party #1 has party #2 (a contractor) build the house.

Party #1 built the house “through” party #2.

Did party #2 build the house?

The house was made “By” party #2.

Did not God create all things “By” and “Through” and “For” himself?

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.

Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Romans 11:36
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

YHWH “Alone” created the heavens and the earth.

Now we just have to know who YHWH is.

John and Paul and the Hebrew writers tells us…

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not” Jn 1:10.

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Careful lest you deny the Master who bought you.
He is the Son of God.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2007,01:50)

kejonn You say… Quote This is another instance wherre you base your theology on shaky ground. Translate it as “by” and you can support the Trinity, translate it as “through” and it cannot. Weak. I disagree! Party #1 says I am gonna build a house. Party #1 has party #2 (a contractor) build the house. Party #1 built the house “through” party #2. Did party #2 build the house? The house was made “By” party #2. Did not God create all things “By” and “Through” and “For” himself? Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

When I look at that verse, I cannot distinguish what Hebrew words were used for “by myself”. At least blueletterbible.com gives me no clue, nor does htmlbible.com. Any Hebrew scholars on here? Do you have access to an explanation of why “by myself” was used according to the original Hebrew? I think the key to understanding this verse definitively lies there.

Also, we do not truly know what form the Word was before it became Yeshua. If YHWH says He created the world “by myself”, how does this disclude the Word if the Word was just an extension of YHWH's power and not a separate entity until Yeshua's earthly birth? We don't have enough OT reference or even NT reference to tells us just how the Word was involved in creation.

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Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*. Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Is 45:18 is basically a repeat of Dt 6:4. John 1:3 does not say that there was only one involved in the creation, but does say that the Word was. “Then God said”…(Gen 1)

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Romans 11:36 For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

This whole chapter is dedicated to God. No mention of Yeshua.

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Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Some would say that this chapter points towards the “new creation” and that all of the NT refers to the new covenant and new creation. The clue in this chapter comes in
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Here it is obvious that “He is the beginning” in the context of the whole verse refers to the new creation. After all, what does “firstborn of all creation” mean in 1:15? Again, it could mean that he was the firstborn of the new creation but I don't think so. In any case, it does mean that Yeshua did come from God and verse 1:15 almost implies that Yeshua was created. But “firstborn” somewhat eliminated that.

However, I do not agree with the assessment that Col 1:16 refers to the new creation.

In any case, Col 1:16 does not prevent Yeshua from doing this as the Word.

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YHWH “Alone” created the heavens and the earth.

Again, we need to establish by the translators used “by Himself” or “all alone” in Is 44:24 first.

Quote

Now we just have to know who YHWH is. John and Paul and the Hebrew writers tells us… “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not” Jn 1:10.

Hey, that was only John . In any case, again, as the Word, this verse fits. These verses are about the Word.

Curious here. If we look back at Genesis chapter 1 and say “Us” means the Trinity, why do so many other verses use the singular pronoun when speaking of YHWH in the OT? Why would God, consisting of 3 “persons” use a singular pronoun when speaking of Himself? I can see why He would if one applies a unitarian or even modalist viewpoint, but not Trinitarian. Which “person” is speaking? Or are all speaking in unison? Would the voices then not be a chorus?

[Cult Buster]

Exo 20:2  I am the LORD(Jehovah)  thy God(Elohiym), which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

ELOHIM – in ancient Hebrew this term was plural and meant “righteous living beings who rule the heavens and the earth.” 

The Elohims are the supreme beings, that govern all Time and Space. They exist in Heaven, which is a dimension that is not governed by Time nor Space. Their existence precedes all Time and Space, because they are the creators of Time and Space.

Since Jesus (Jehovah) is a member of Elohiym, He can also be addressed as Elohiym.  

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Despite it's plural form, elohyim is sometimes  used as if it were singular
The word “God” (Elohiym)  is used either as a singular or a plural word, like sheep
In Gen 1 IT IS OBVIOUSLY PLUAL.

And God (elohiym) said let US make man in OUR image.

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: – angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

                   JESUS our JEHOVAH

JEHOVAH isI AM                                  EXODUS 3:14      
JESUS isI AMJOHN 8:57& 58

JEHOVAH isFIRST & LASTISAIHA 44:6, 48:12
JESUS isFIRST & LASTREV 22:12,13,20  1:8  MICAH 5:2

JEHOVAH isROCKDEUT 32:4
JESUS isROCK1 COR 10:4

JEHOVAH isKINGISAIHA 33:22
JESUS isKINGREV 19:11-16

JEHOVAH isCREATORISAIHA 40:28
JESUS isCREATOREPH 3:9  JOHN 1:3  COL 1:16

JEHOVAH isSAVIOURISAIHA 33:22,  43:11,12
JESUS isSAVIOURACTS 4:12  MATH 1:21  LK 2:11

JEHOVAH isJUDGEISAIHA 33:22
JESUS isJUDGEJOHN 5:22

Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
 

[kejonn]

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,05:25)

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD(Jehovah) thy God(Elohiym), which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. ELOHIM – in ancient Hebrew this term was plural and meant “righteous living beings who rule the heavens and the earth.” The Elohims are the supreme beings, that govern all Time and Space. They exist in Heaven, which is a dimension that is not governed by Time nor Space. Their existence precedes all Time and Space, because they are the creators of Time and Space. Since Jesus (Jehovah) is a member of Elohiym, He can also be addressed as Elohiym. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Despite it's plural form, elohyim is sometimes used as if it were singular The word “God” (Elohiym) is used either as a singular or a plural word, like sheep In Gen 1 IT IS OBVIOUSLY PLUAL. And God (elohiym) said let US make man in OUR image. H430 אלהים 'ĕlôhîym el-o-heem' Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: – angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. JESUS our JEHOVAH JEHOVAH isI AM EXODUS 3:14 JESUS isI AMJOHN 8:57& 58 JEHOVAH isFIRST & LASTISAIHA 44:6, 48:12 JESUS isFIRST & LASTREV 22:12,13,20 1:8 MICAH 5:2 JEHOVAH isROCKDEUT 32:4 JESUS isROCK1 COR 10:4 JEHOVAH isKINGISAIHA 33:22 JESUS isKINGREV 19:11-16 JEHOVAH isCREATORISAIHA 40:28 JESUS isCREATOREPH 3:9 JOHN 1:3 COL 1:16 JEHOVAH isSAVIOURISAIHA 33:22, 43:11,12 JESUS isSAVIOURACTS 4:12 MATH 1:21 LK 2:11 JEHOVAH isJUDGEISAIHA 33:22 JESUS isJUDGEJOHN 5:22 Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

“elohiym” as “angel”: Psa 8:5

as “gods” (not “God”)

Gen 3:5, Gen 31:30, Gen 31:32, Gen 35:2, Gen 35:4, Exo 12:12, Exo 18:11, Exo 20:3, Exo 20:23, Exo 20:23, Exo 22:28, Exo 23:13, Exo 23:24, Exo 23:32, Exo 23:33, Exo 32:1, Exo 32:4, Exo 32:8, Exo 32:23, Exo 32:31, Exo 34:15, Exo 34:15, Exo 34:16, Exo 34:16, Exo 34:17, Lev 19:4, Num 25:2, Num 25:2, Num 33:4, Deu 4:28, Deu 5:7, Deu 6:14, Deu 6:14, Deu 7:4, Deu 7:16, Deu 7:25, Deu 8:19, Deu 10:17, Deu 11:16, Deu 11:28, Deu 12:2, Deu 12:3, Deu 12:30, Deu 12:30, Deu 12:31, Deu 12:31, Deu 13:2, Deu 13:6, Deu 13:7, Deu 13:13, Deu 17:3, Deu 18:20, Deu 20:18, Deu 28:14, Deu 28:36, Deu 28:64, Deu 29:18, Deu 29:26, Deu 29:26, Deu 30:17, Deu 31:16, Deu 31:18, Deu 31:20, Deu 32:17, Deu 32:37, Jos 22:22, Jos 22:22, Jos 23:7, Jos 23:16, Jos 24:2, Jos 24:14, Jos 24:15, Jos 24:15, Jos 24:16, Jos 24:20, Jos 24:23, Jud 2:3, Jud 2:12, Jud 2:12, Jud 2:17, Jud 2:19, Jud 3:6, Jud 5:8, Jud 6:10, Jud 10:6, Jud 10:6, Jud 10:6, Jud 10:6, Jud 10:6, Jud 10:13, Jud 10:14, Jud 10:16, Jud 17:5, Jud 18:24, Ruth 1:15, 1 Sam 4:8, 1 Sam 4:8, 1 Sam 6:5, 1 Sam 7:3, 1 Sam 8:8, 1 Sam 17:43, 1 Sam 26:19, 1 Sam 28:13, 2 Sam 7:23, 1 Ki 9:6, 1 Ki 9:9, 1 Ki 11:2, 1 Ki 11:4, 1 Ki 11:8, 1 Ki 11:10, 1 Ki 12:28, 1 Ki 14:9, 1 Ki 18:24, 1 Ki 18:25, 1 Ki 19:2, 1 Ki 20:10, 1 Ki 20:23, 1 Ki 20:23, 2 Ki 5:17, 2 Ki 17:7, 2 Ki 17:29, 2 Ki 17:31, 2 Ki 17:33, 2 Ki 17:35, 2 Ki 17:37, 2 Ki 17:38, 2 Ki 18:33, 2 Ki 18:34, 2 Ki 18:34, 2 Ki 18:35, 2 Ki 19:12, 2 Ki 19:18, 2 Ki 19:18, 2 Ki 22:17, 1 Chr 5:25, 1 Chr 10:10, 1 Chr 14:12, 1 Chr 16:25, 1 Chr 16:26, 2 Chr 2:5, 2 Chr 7:19, 2 Chr 7:22, 2 Chr 13:8, 2 Chr 13:9, 2 Chr 25:14, 2 Chr 25:14, 2 Chr 25:15, 2 Chr 25:20, 2 Chr 28:23, 2 Chr 28:23, 2 Chr 28:25, 2 Chr 32:13, 2 Chr 32:14, 2 Chr 32:17, 2 Chr 32:19, 2 Chr 33:15, 2 Chr 34:25, Ezr 1:7, Psa 82:1, Psa 82:6, Psa 86:8, Psa 95:3, Psa 96:4, Psa 96:5, Psa 97:7, Psa 97:9, Psa 135:5, Psa 136:2, Psa 138:1, Isa 21:9, Isa 36:18, Isa 36:19, Isa 36:19, Isa 36:20, Isa 37:12, Isa 37:19, Isa 37:19, Isa 41:23, Isa 42:17, Jer 1:16, Jer 2:11, Jer 2:11, Jer 2:28, Jer 2:28, Jer 5:7, Jer 5:19, Jer 7:6, Jer 7:9, Jer 7:18, Jer 11:10, Jer 11:12, Jer 11:13, Jer 13:10, Jer 16:11, Jer 16:13, Jer 16:20, Jer 16:20, Jer 19:4, Jer 19:13, Jer 22:9, Jer 25:6, Jer 32:29, Jer 35:15, Jer 43:12, Jer 43:13, Jer 44:3, Jer 44:5, Jer 44:8, Jer 44:15, Jer 46:25, Jer 48:35, Dan 11:8, Hos 3:1, Hos 14:3, Nahum 1:14, Zeph 2:11

As “judges”

Exo 21:6, Exo 22:8, Exo 22:9, Exo 22:9

As “mighty”

Gen 23:6, Exo 9:28

[Cult Buster]

So tell us kejonn.    Is God Elohiym?

2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

[kejonn]

Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,07:59)

So tell us kejonn.    Is God Elohiym? 2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

According to the Masoretic text, yep! I just showed that there were other instances where “elohiym” meant something other than “God” to show that you cannot use the Hebrew word exclusively for YHWH God. To do so is special pleading.

[Mr. Steve]

To Nick, Kejonn, worshipping Jesus, and t8;

Some believers assert that Jesus is Jehovah. Most do innocently from what I can see and believe that they are greatly glorifying God. However, if Christ is Jehovah, then the Father cannot be Jehovah, too, unless you believe that Christ is also the Father. If the truth is that Christ is the Father and Jehovah that would make Christ a liar because Christ said the Father sent him. Christ did not say he sent himself. he said he came not of his own will, but the will of him who sent him. If Christ is Jehovah then Christ lied because he came of his own volition and lied about being sent in just about every chapter in the Gospel of John.

Christ also said that what he taught was not his doctrine, but his Father's. Now someone's not telling the truth. The vast majority of preachers today preach that Christ is the Word in John 1:1 If Christ is the Word instead of the Word made flesh, then the apostle John got it all wrong. More importantly, Jesus lied again when he said the doctrine wasn't his, but his Father's.
All of these statements would be lies because if Christ is Jehovah (The God and Father of Christ) all truth would belong to him.

It's also very problematic if Christ is Jehovah (the Father) for Jesus to state some 25 times in the Gospel of Matthew “your heavenly Father, which is in heaven”, if he were the Father in the flesh standing before their very eyes. This again would make Christ a liar if he was really the Father or Jehovah in the Flesh.

The truth is God was manifest in Christ, but God the Father the person was still in heaven.

Steven

[NickHassan]

Hi Mr s,
I agree.
So when did God become manifest in Christ?

[Mr. Steve]

Nick

Before the world was. John 17:5 Christ is the beginning and the end. So how about in the beginning.

Steven

[NickHassan]

Hi MrS,
So you would say Christ was God when you say God was in Christ?
Christ to you was not a vessel for God at all?
Was God manifest in Christ before his anointing at the Jordan?

[Mr. Steve]

Nick;

I'm seeing that “in the beginning” may mark a point in time. When Christ spoke of the Devil in John 8 he said was a liar from the beginning. According to Jude some of the angels left their first estate, I believe that includes Lucifer who led them. Christ doesn't make reference to that time when Lucifer was in heaven, but marks a point in time by stating in the beginning. This appears critical for doctrinal purposes because Christ stated in Revelation that he was the beginning and the end, meaning that all truth was in Christ at the time the world began. For doctrinal purposes, because Christ also created all things by the authority of his Father he has therefore always existed with the Father and is eternal because no doctrine can be declared before such time since we have no other truth given to us before the beginning. Our doctrine is limited to what God has spoken through all his holy prophets not eternally, but since the world began. Doctrines that are based upon beliefs that are not enunciated in scripture ultimately lead to error and heresy.

Steven

[Mr. Steve]

Nick;

God is in us, too, that doesn't make us God. Christ in you the hope of Glory. Christ was the Son of God from the beginning. He is before all things.

Steven

[NickHassan]

Hi Mr S,
FOR DOCTRINAL PURPOSES little is more important than the fact that Christ is the Son of God. Trinitarians say he was never a real Son but a part of God just CALLED the Son of God. The Word was with God in the beginning. He came in the name of the Father, was filled with the Spirit of God at the Jordan and thence only revealed the full nature and powers of God at work in his vessel.

Acts 10
37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

[Author]

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