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From the Jehovah's Witnesses own Bible.
“NWT II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.
COME OUT OF HER
The Bible identifies Him as God.
Look again Nick
Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = God
Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = JehovahSo tell us Nick. Is the Holy Ghost a true God or a false God? (Don't put the twist on scripture this time).
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Hi CB,
You should not try to separate God from his own Spirit to make another deity.
It is a dangerous thing to play around with God's truth.Hi Cult Buster.
I believed in the Trinity before because I was young and impressionable. I was never a JW and hopefully never will be. It would be a great step backwards for me to join a denomination of any kind.
Also the Holy Spirit is what God is and that helps us understand how God can be in all.
The Father is who God is. Scripture testifies to this.
So I don't disagree with your above post regarding what the Holy Spirit said.
It's just that you still view God as a substance by which is contained 3 persons. That is the problem and your above post doesn't justify that creed in any way.
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 17 2007,10:54) Hi Nick. Were you and t8 Jehovah's Witnesses before?
I could also say, were you are a Catholic?After all you follow their faith. i.e., 3 persons in one God…
Yet we do not hold to JW doctrine that Jesus is Michael. We don't hold to 1916 or whatever that date is that Christ supposedly returned and I don't interpret John 1:1 as Jesus was a god.
But you do hold to the Catholic Faith and for that reason, the Vatican considers you as one of theirs, albeit a rebellious disciple until you fully submit to the mother of your doctrine.
So I think it could be argued that you are more Catholic than I am a JW. Can you see that?
Quote (Cult Buster @ July 17 2007,11:19) Hi t8. So you and Nick are JW offshoots
Thanks.
This is a silly comment CultB.You judge yourself with that same measure.
That makes you a Catholic by your own judgement.
Did it not cross you mind that you could pick out any cult and find that they believe as you do on some things.
I would have thought that this was obvious. Do I really need to point that out. Do I really have to hold your hand and lead you through the following:
Catholics believe in the Trinity and that adultery is sin. Do you?
Moslems believe that Jesus is a man of God and prophet. Do you?
Evolutionists believe that the earth is a sphere. Do you?Did not Satan speak truth mixed with lies to entice Eve?
Show some wisdom CultB.
Silly comments like the one you made are childish and wastes everyone's time. Misrepresenting your opponent doesn't lead to truth. It is just propaganda and is a complete waste of time for everyone including yourself.
Hi Nick.
Where then do you and t8 get your arian doctrine from? JWs are the bastion of arianism in the world today? Sure you may have some minor differences from them but the reality is that you are still offshoots from the Watchtower.
Have a look where your doctrines come from.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m
COME OUT OF HER
Hi Nick and t8.
If you follow Christ, then you should heed His words.
Joh 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins. (MKJV)
Jesus Himself laid down the line – unless one believes Him for whom He says He is – the ego eimi, the great I AM – one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ. If we are to be united with Christ to have eternal life, then we must be united with the true Christ, not a false representation. It is out of love that Christ uttered John 8:24. We would do well to heed His words.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
“I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.
Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52
In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.
We need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words from a different language to the New Testament language. It would be like saying that “I am” in English is equating one with God because it is the words used by God in Hebrew. Also many say “I am” in the New Testament just as they say those words today without meaning they are God.
If you were watching Mickey Mouse on the Disney channel and Goofy said to Mickey, “are you Mickey Mouse”, am I to assume then that Mickey Mouse is claiming to be God if he answers, “I am”? Of course not. He is simply identifying himself as Mickey Mouse.
Back to the Old Testament we see that it was YHWH that said “I am that I am”. He was saying that he was the ever exisiting one. So his name was actually YHWH. To equate the common words “I am” in any other language as a claim to be YHWH is indeed a big stretch of the imagination.
Here is an example of the words “I am” in everday language/
Q: Are you Peter?
A: I am.Conclusion: If I am Peter then am I blaspheming when I say I am. I am not saying I am YHWH. I am saying that I am Peter. I am simply answering the question asked of me.
This behaviour is very normal and common as you can see. In fact the above paragraph alone contains 7 instances of the term 'I am'. Yet who in their right mind would think that I was claiming to be God?
Only a person who believed that I was claiming to be God could think that.
Quote “I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.
Luke 1:19
19The angel answered and said to him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.There is a predicate linked with “Ego eimi” in this verse. It is not reasonable to draw a parallel between this verse and John 8:58 (which lacks a predicate).
John 9:9
9Others were saying, “This is he,” still others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the one.”There is also a predicate linked with “Ego eimi” in this verse. It is not reasonable to draw a parallel between this verse and John 8:58 (which lacks a predicate).
Acts 10:21
21Peter went down to the men and said, “Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?”There is also a predicate linked with “Ego eimi” in this verse. It is not reasonable to draw a parallel between this verse and John 8:58 (which lacks a predicate).
So t8 you are quite correct when he state “Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.”. But that's because you failed to come up with a passage that parallels the grammar in Exodus 3:14 (or John 8:58).
Quote Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52
There are predicates linked with each of the instances where Yeshua uttered “ego eimi” in John 6:35-48. Therefore the comparison is unreasonable and the assertion unfounded.Quote In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye. John 8:12
12Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”Predicate here.
John 8:18
18″I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”Predicate here.
John 8:24
24″Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”Bingo! We have a winner. Yes this is comparable gramatically as “ego eimi” lacks the predicate in this verse. The word “He” does not appear in the Greek and was added by the translators (in most versions) to make the passage read more smoothly. They should not have, as the statement loses it's proper impact. Yeshua plainly says here, unless something is believed about Him the listeners would “die in their sins”. That's a significant thought! It shouldn't be overlooked.
John 8:28
28So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.Another unpredicated “ego eimi”. You found a couple in the end t8…I think it's fair to say that John 8:24 & 28, although heavy statements in their own right, would not have registered quite as highly as John 8:58 on their blasphemy-meter. In the later Yeshua was contrasting His eternal existence with their venerated (but temporal) Abraham's using language that made it plain that He was YHWH. So the language in combination with it's context would undoubtedly have incited the Pharisees' response.
Quote n John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.
In John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 there is no predicate. In John 13:19 no reaction is recorded in the text, which does not mean there was none, but just that none was recorded. It's also patent that the apostles were a little slow to “get” Yeshua.“Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:19)
Quote (t8 @ July 17 2007,15:25) We need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words from a different language to the New Testament language.
Not in the Septuagint t8.“Old Testament Background of ego eimi
An extensive discussion of this topic is beyond the scope of this paper. 13 Suffice it to say that the position taken by this writer reflects a consensus opinion of many scholars, that being that the closest and most logical connection between John's usage of ego eimi and the Old Testament is to be found in the Septuagint rendering of the Hebrew phrase ani hu in the writings (primarily) of Isaiah. 14 It is true that many go directly to Exodus 3:14 for the background, but it is felt that unless one first establishes the connection with the direct quotation of ego eimi in the Septuagint, the connection with Exodus 3:14 will be somewhat tenuous.
The Septuagint translates the Hebrew phrase ani hu as ego eimi in Isaiah 41:4, 43:10 and 46:4. In each of these instances the phrase ani hu appears at the end of the clause, and is so rendered (or punctuated) in the LXX (just as in these seven examples in John). The phrase ego eimi appears as the translation of a few other phrases in Isaiah as well that are significant to this discussion. It translates the Hebrew anoki anoki hu as ego eimi in 43:25 and 51:12. Once (52:6) ani hu is translated as ego eimi autos (basically an even more emphasized form). And once (45:18) we find ego eimi kurios for ani Yahweh! This last passage is provocative in that it is in the context of creation, an act ascribed to Jesus by John (John 1:3) and other New Testament writers (Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:2-3).
The usage of ani hu by Isaiah is as a euphemism for the very name of God Himself. Some see a connection between ani hu and Yahweh as both referring to being. 15 That it carried great weight with the Jews is seen in 8:59 and their reaction to the Lord's usage of the phrase. If one wishes to say that Jesus was not speaking Greek, but Aramaic, the difficulty is not removed, for the identification would have been just that much clearer!
There seems to be a direct connection between the Septuagint and Jesus' usage of ego eimi. In Isaiah 43:10 we read, “that you may know, and believe, and understand, that I am He” (personal translation). In the LXX this is rendered thus: hina gnote kai pisteusete kai sunete hoti ego eimi. In John 13:19, Jesus says to the disciples, “from now on I tell you before it comes to pass in order that when it does happen, you may believe that I am.” (personal translation). In Greek the last phrase is hina pisteusete hotan genetai hoti ego eimi. When one removes the extraneous words (such as hotan genetai which connects the last clause to the first) and compares these two passages, this is the result:
Is. 43:10: hina pisteusete … hoti ego eimi
Jn. 13:19: hina pisteusete … hoti ego eimiEven if one were to theorize that Jesus Himself did not attempt to make such an obvious connection between Himself and Yahweh (which would be difficult enough to do!) one must answer the question of why John, being obviously familiar with the LXX, would so intentionally insert this kind of parallelism.”
http://www.aomin.org/EGO.html
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