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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2007,06:09) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,17:29) Quote (t8 @ May 09 2007,16:18) To WJ. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,03:19) Yeshua and the Father is in us and we are in “Them”. Ring a bell?
Gen 1:26
And God said, *Let us* make man *in our image, after our likeness*: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.There is the Father and Yeshua, and there is the us!
Yes it rings a bell.God was talking to Christ.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ding ding.
t8Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Again t8.
If Jesus shared in the creation and he was not the Word that was with God and the Word that was God, but instead as you say “the word was divine” then you contradict the Hebrew scriptures…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, *I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad *the earth by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.And if Yeshua is not YHWH/God in the flesh you also contradict these Hebrew scriptures..
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.How do you explain this?
Also, you still have not given me your take on John 1:1 and John 20:28.
I will assume if you dont answer then you dont have an answer.
Hi W,
God is the saviour, the ultimate source of salvation, but now for us this is only accessible through our appointed saviour and appointed Lord, His Son Jesus.
NHDo you see anything in the scriptures I posted that YHWH will have or has an appointed Saviour?
God alone is our Saviour NH. Or else God is a liar.
Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Again t8.
If Jesus shared in the creation and he was not the Word that was with God and the Word that was God, but instead as you say “the word was divine” then you contradict the Hebrew scriptures…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, *I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad *the earth by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.And if Yeshua is not YHWH/God in the flesh you also contradict these Hebrew scriptures..
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.How do you explain this?
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.
*****************Jesus acts in God's stead. So that in that way, God is our ultimate Saviour – reconciling us to himself *through* his Son. I've often pondered this idea that God is our ONLY Saviour, and yet Jesus is also (either in conjuction or in God's stead) also our Saviour. Yet there are not two Saviour's but one. Right?
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 17 2007,10:15) Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.
*****************Jesus acts in God's stead. So that in that way, God is our ultimate Saviour – reconciling us to himself *through* his Son. I've often pondered this idea that God is our ONLY Saviour, and yet Jesus is also (either in conjuction or in God's stead) also our Saviour. Yet there are not two Saviour's but one. Right?
not3I encourage you to look at the following!
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*[/U].Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Look at these scriptures…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,These scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is “None like him”.
This presents a real problem for the Unitarians and the Henotheist and Arians.
Because the Jews were strict Monotheist, and that Apostles like Paul and John and Luke and Thomas and Titus and Peter all referred to Yeshua as being God, as well as many church fathers.
See..
http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm
Now think about this. All the original Apostles were Monotheist who knew the Hebrew scriptures, and they believed that YHWH is One God and that he alone created the heavens and that by himself he is Savior and that there is none like him.
Yet these same men spoke of Yeshua as being God, and Paul and John giving us unambiguous scriptures that all things were made by Yeshua and for him and without him was not anything made that was made, and that by him all things consist, and he is before all things and by the Word of his power all things are upheld, and that he has all power and authority in heaven and in earth, and a name that is above every name.
This is an incredible thing for these strict Monotheistic Jews who believed that his name was too holy to speak and who were devout followers of the commandments, for them to speak of another being as they did about Jesus in light of the Hebrew scriptures they had, understanding fully that they would be breaking the 1st and 2nd commandments by doing so. These same men were willing to die for their faith in this Jesus by calling him Lord and master and King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
For those apostles to speak of Jesus in their writings about him in the manner they did if he was not God in the flesh would be blasphemy and Idolatry.
GW put it very well and all she got was scorn without any one challenging the substance of her words in the following…
“The writer of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is the EXACT image and representative of Jehovah God the Father (Heb. 1:3). If He is a god and not Jehovah God the Son, then worship of the Father through this image or representative is idolatry and in violation of the Second Commandment. Should the Second Commandment be rewritten to read: “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth because I have already created one. You must not bow down to anyone or anything except this one that I have personally created. I used Him to create everything else and you are not to worship me through anything He created. But, it is okay for you to worship Me through Him since I personally created Him.
The New Testament commands believers to honor the Son in the SAME WAY that they honor the Father (Jn. 5:23). We are to approach the Father though the Son (Eph. 2:18) and all prayers are to be addressed to the Father through the Son. All blessings or promises made are to be received through and because of Jesus’ name and all worship paid to Jehovah is to be directed to the Father through the Son (Rom. 1:8; 3:24; 5:9; 6:11, 23; 7:25; 15:17; 16:27; I Pet. 4:11; 2 Cor. 3:4; Jn. 1:7; 20:31; Lk. 10:17; Jn. 3:17; 15:3; Acts 10:43; 15:11; 2 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:9; Acts 3:16; 4:2; 13:38; Col. 1:14, 22; Tit. 3:16; etc.). If Jesus is merely “god”, part of the creation, and the true God’s representative, then the writers of the New Testament encouraged all who believed in Jesus as God to break both the First and Second Commandments.”
Just something to think about.
Blessings!
Not3in1,
You are right. God is our Saviour. Jesus is our Saviour. And there is only one Saviour.
Isaiah 43;11 says, “I, even I, am YHWH, and there is no saviour besides Me?” So when Jesus is called our Saviour, Titus 1:4, then there are only two possibilities: Jesus is God, or Paul is blaspheming. I don't think the “through” argument resolves this at all. Paul says all things are through God. Romans 11:36. Jude 25 is talking about our worship being to God and through Jesus, not God's salvation being from God and through Jesus, although that is true. In any event, our salvation being through someone other than YHWH is impossible according to Isaiah 43:11.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Little problem.
Jesus has a God.
Jn 20
” 16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2007,12:29) t8 Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Again t8.
If Jesus shared in the creation and he was not the Word that was with God and the Word that was God, but instead as you say “the word was divine” then you contradict the Hebrew scriptures…
WJ.I have asked this question to CultB and I haven't seen an answer yet, but maybe I haven't looked very hard.
Anyway, maybe you can answer this question seen as how you are treading in the general area.
Do you believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ, or do you believe that CHRIST actually made it himself?
Quote (t8 @ May 17 2007,21:56) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 10 2007,12:29) t8 Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Again t8.
If Jesus shared in the creation and he was not the Word that was with God and the Word that was God, but instead as you say “the word was divine” then you contradict the Hebrew scriptures…
WJ.I have asked this question to CultB and I haven't seen an answer yet, but maybe I haven't looked very hard.
Anyway, maybe you can answer this question seen as how you are treading in the general area.
Do you believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ, or do you believe that CHRIST actually made it himself?
t8The problem you have is not seeing that God is One and yet plural, “plurality in unity”, is a very basic building block of the creation, which also declares the Glory of God.
The scriptures are clear that there is three persons.
One Spirit, Three persons, One God.
So here is your answer which I doubt you will accept.
Gen 1:1
In the beginning *God* created the heaven and the earth.Yet we read…
And God said, *Let us make man in our image*, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.Moses had some understanding I believe that there was more than one in the Godhead, yet there is “One God”.
Moses said “God” yet Moses quoted God “Let us” “in our”.
Moses also said the “Spirit of God”, “Moved”, which is an indication that the Spirit of God had life.
Gen 1:2
…And the Spirit of God *moved* upon the face of the watersThe Hebrew word for “Moved” literally means to hover over, or brood over as a mother hen over her chicks.
Yet Moses all through his account of the creation says 'God”.
Then we read…
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.There is “None beside me, beside me there is none”.
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,Again I reiterate these scriptures bear out that God not only is our only Saviour, but also he says that he alone created the heavens and there is…
“None like him”, “By Myself”. “None Else”.
t8 you can play word games all you want with the word “Dia” which can be translated through or by.
It makes no difference in light of the above scriptures.
Rom 11:36
For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.The context in the above scripture seems to be talking about the Father yet Paul through the whole chapter never mentions neither the Father nor the Son.
That seems to be the problem dosnt it t8?
Very often it is hard to tell who Paul is referring to for he says “God”.
Now based on Rom 11:36 it says refering to “God” that…
For of him and “through (dia) him, and to him *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Yet we read Paul saying…
Col 1:
16 For by him (through him) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: *all things were created by him, and for him*:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.So based on this, Romans 11:36 which in its context is God, also applys to Yeshua!
How can this be t8?
In light of Hebrew scriptures, and especially the fact that Paul a (Hebrew of the Hebrews) and John (the Beloved Desciple), being strict Monotheist could place Yeshua in the creation of all things this way?
John remembering Genesis 1 writes…
Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God. (the us and our)
3 *All things were made by him*; and *without him* was not *any thing made that was made*.Analogy
Party 1 says “I want to build a house”.
Party 1 has Party 2 (a contractor) build the house.
Party 1 says “I built a house”.
Party 1 built the house “Through” the contractor.
t8 did party 2 build the house?
Yeshua is not just a funnel that the Father poured his power through.
He is the very essence and substance that “all things” were made by.
Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and *by him all things consist*.Heb 1:3
Who being the *brightness of his glory*, and the express image of his person, and *upholding all things by the word of his power*, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the *right hand of the Majesty on high*;Remember t8, that beside him there is “NO OTHER”, *he that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*, and his Glory as God he will share with no other.
How could he, for he is a class of being “all by himself”.
Yet this same Word that was with the Father came down from heaven and has now returned back to heaven to his previous state and the Glory he shared with the Father as God.
Truly the Word was with God and the Word was/is God!
Blessings
So WorshippingJesus.
From what you have said, I take that you hold to the view that Jesus created all things and that the he created all these things through himself.
Is this a correct interpretation of your position?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2007,11:44) Hi W,
Is God the Word?
NHI am not of the opinion that the “Word” in John 1:1 is the spoken word of God.
God didnt speak and Yeshua came into being.
Jesus is named the “Word of God” in revelation I believe because the word of God proceeds from him.
He, Yeshua upholds all things by the “Word of his power”, the same word that brought all things into existence.
He is the giver and source of all life, and said the words that he spoke were Spirit and life for by him “all things were created”.
Hidden in the Father and Jesus are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, therefore Jesus is made unto us wisdom.
Hi W,
You say
“Hidden in the Father and Jesus are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, therefore Jesus is made unto us wisdom.”Since you make Christ the source of all things is not by your doctrine the Father made non-existant and impotent or at least irrelevant?
Quote (t8 @ May 18 2007,12:12) So WorshippingJesus. From what you have said, I take that you hold to the view that Jesus created all things and that the he created all these things through himself.
Is this a correct interpretation of your position?
t8Is that all the response that you have?
Rom 11:36
[/I]For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.[/I]Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;According to the above scriptures t8 did God create everything through himself?
Why dont you address this scriptures that I post t8?
How can Yeshua have anything to do with the creation if he is not God in light of the scriptures I post.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2007,12:24) Hi W,
You say
“Hidden in the Father and Jesus are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, therefore Jesus is made unto us wisdom.”Since you make Christ the source of all things is not by your doctrine the Father made non-existant and impotent or at least irrelevant?
NHNot at all.
Because he is God, one with the Father and the Spirit.
By him Jesus all things consist and all things are upheld by the word of his power.
He said “I am the way the truth and *The life*.
Hi W,
He was given to have life in him by the Father and to become for us the source of that godly life.If God is not the Word, was God the Word?
If not then the interpretation you put on Jn 1.1 is not robust and should be reviewed?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 18 2007,12:42) Hi W,
He was given to have life in him by the Father and to become for us the source of that godly life.If God is not the Word, was God the Word?
If not then the interpretation you put on Jn 1.1 is not robust and should be reviewed?
NHYet Yeshua “Is the Life”.
The “Word” is simply a name John chose to use because of the gnostics in his day.
He did not want any confusion about Yeshua coming in the flesh.
Since John in John 1:1 is dealing with the beginning and Yeshua had not come in the flesh yet, and hadnt been given the name by the Angel “Jesus” John used the “Logos” to describe him being with God and that he was God.
If he had of used his earthly name Yeshua or Jesus then many may claim that he just came down from heaven without the natural birth.
I believe that John borrowed the term from his vision on the Isle of Patmos, since Revelations was written around 70 ad and the gospel of John was written in the 80s or 90s.
Jesus was named the Word of God, therefore he used the name to describe Yeshua before his birth.
Hi W,
Indeed for us Christ is the source of the waters of Life because he had been given to have a fullness of that Spirit of Life
'Jn 7
“37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) “
Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
2Jn
” 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. “So he can be said to have been the Christ before he came surely.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 19 2007,07:27) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2007,12:12) So WorshippingJesus. From what you have said, I take that you hold to the view that Jesus created all things and that the he created all these things through himself.
Is this a correct interpretation of your position?
t8Is that all the response that you have?
Rom 11:36
[/I]For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.[/I]Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;According to the above scriptures t8 did God create everything through himself?
Why dont you address this scriptures that I post t8?
How can Yeshua have anything to do with the creation if he is not God in light of the scriptures I post.
WJ.It is hard to understand what your stand is.
I cannot figure out from your own explanations to your understanding and teaching whether:
- God created all things through Christ Jesus;
- Jesus created all things through himself;
- Jesus created all things through no one;
- or some other explanation.
If someone asked you who created the universe, I guess your answer would be Jesus.
But what if someone asked you “Who did God create the universe through?”
What would your answer be then?
I think if you teach here, then you should at least make it clear as to that which you teach.
We should be able to give an answer to that which we believe and especially that which we teach. Making everything mysterious can be a hiding place for someone who is confused and lacks understanding.
Tim 2 wrote:
In any event, our salvation being through someone other than YHWH is impossible according to Isaiah 43:11.
**************************
Salvation is of God. Is his “arm” too short to save? “Arm” can be translated “offspring.” In many instances in Isaiah the “arm” is working salvation FOR God. I'll have to find those verses for you tomorrow. But it is reasonable to see that Jesus worked salvation for the LORD. God looked and there was no one to do it for him. So God created his own way of delivering salvation to the world.
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