Trinity &#8211; t8&#039;s proof text #2

Participant

WJ;

You have a grand sense of humor. Do you seriously believe that in Hebrews when the Father says to the Son, thy throne oh God, that he intended us to believe that the Son is the God of the Father. Does he say to the Son, my God, as Jesus says to the Father? Who sent who?
Who worships who? Who commands who? You must see that when God raised Christ from the dead and set him at his own right hand that he was still the God of Christ. Please tell me that you do not believe the Father and the Son are both the God of each other. What's amazing to me after all your years of serving God and worshipping Jesus, that you could enunciate this view of the Father and the Son. I'm beginning to believe you must be pulling my leg.

Take Care

Steven

October 1, 2007 at 9:47 pm#67251

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 02 2007,00:26)

WJ,

I just had to reply to this one because it is so obvious: Mat 12:29 is quoted from the Septuagint, which came to replace YHWH or YHVH with “kyrios”. You know that the original Hebrew phrase was “YHWH our God is one YHWH”.

Yes I have seen that error perpetuated many times.

YHWH is translated LORD, and we know that there is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Trinitarians then say, see Jesus is YHWH.

But that is of course faulty reasoning and a confusion made by man. As truth seekers we need to go beyond the works of men, otherwise we will just accept as truth the works of men.

October 1, 2007 at 9:57 pm#67252

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 02 2007,09:10)

WJ;

Take Care

Steven

mr steve

I never said the Father is saying Jesus is his God!

I simply point out that the Father acknowledges Yeshuas “Deity” as God one with him.

Jn 1:1 my friend.

October 1, 2007 at 10:04 pm#67253

Participant

mr steve

You never addressed my points.

How do you explain Heb 1:10 and Isa 44:4?

Jesus calls the Father God. and the Father calls Jesus God!

Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

The writer of the book of Hebrews by the spirit elevated this scripture taken from Pss 45:6,7 as prophetic of the Father speaking to the Son.

And then confirms who this “God” is in verse 10 of Hebrew 1 quoting Pss 102…

Pss 102:10
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
11 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

The context of Pss 102 is speaking of YHWH, yet again we see the writter of the book of Hebrews elevating and ascribing yet another scrpture about YHWH to Yeshua.

And yet we read…

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;

How would you explain this?

Isa 1:18 also has some good stuff on this one.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278

Blessings!

October 1, 2007 at 10:11 pm#67256

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 02 2007,09:47)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 02 2007,00:26)

WJ,

Yes I have seen that error perpetuated many times.

YHWH is translated LORD, and we know that there is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Trinitarians then say, see Jesus is YHWH.

But that is of course faulty reasoning and a confusion made by man. As truth seekers we need to go beyond the works of men, otherwise we will just accept as truth the works of men.

You never addressed my question.

But how about this…

t8 You say that “theos” can apply to Yeshua as “a god” rather than “God”…

Is 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHWH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Is 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

How do you explain this?

YHWH hasnt changed his mind and made an image of himself that we are to bow down to!!!

before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Doctrines of men deny these truths!

October 1, 2007 at 10:27 pm#67257

Participant

WJ;

I apologize for not addressing your points. My mistake.

Answer to Hebrew 1:10. God the Father has made Christ Lord of heaven and earth, so he says to his Son, thy throne oh God. I have no problem with this, God is still the God of Christ as the scriptures indicate.

Answer to Psalms 102 There are many scriptures in the Old Testament that can apply to Christ in the New Testament. The reason for this is that Christ is the Tabernacle of God. He is the dwelling place of the Godhead bodily in whom God has chosen to manifest himself in fullness. For this reason you could go on a very long time with this kind of scriptural comparison from the Old to the New Testament. Christ is the express image of the Father.

Answer to Isaiah 44:4 says “they shall spring up as among the grass…” I think you meant Isaiah 44:24 which essentially states that God is the creator of heaven and earth, thy redeemer, etc. God needs no other. He is completely independent in and of himself. That does not mean that God does not give his power to others to perform his will including Christ and his power in us. The New Testament is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. He was only revealed in the Old Testament in types and shadows.

Finally, I checked out this Isaiah 1:18 post. The writer is learned but it would take me more time than I have to spare to disect the post. If you agree with his conclusions it's pretty safe to say that I would have differences with him with respect to the Godhead. For instance, does he believe that the Father is the God of Christ? This is a simple question. The answer of which can indicate what a person's views are on the Godhead without a seminary lesson.

Take care

Steven

October 1, 2007 at 11:00 pm#67258

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 02 2007,10:27)

WJ;

I apologize for not addressing your points. My mistake.

Take care

Steven

mr steve

OK.

But you completly overlooked Heb 1:10 which says…

Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Which clearly in its context is speaking of Yeshuas hands creating all things, confirming.. Heb 1:2,3 John 1:3, Col 1:16,17.

Then we have the following…

Gen 1:1
In the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth!

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: *I am the LORD; and there is none else*.

Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and *there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,

And yet we read by a strict Monotheistic Jew…

John.1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and *without him was not any thing made that was made*.

mr steve you say…

Quote

God needs no other. He is completely independent in and of himself. That does not mean that God does not give his power to others to perform his will including Christ and his power in us. The New Testament is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

How does *that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad the earth *by myself*;
God *himself* that formed the earth and made it
line up with your statement?

How does the words “Alone” “By myself” “God Himself” “None else” “None beside me” “None like me” mean anything else?

You see you have a contradiction if you say Jesus is not God for he is the executer of the creation and yet the Bible says that God did it alone.

How do you explain the Apostles of the NT who knew these scriptures ascribing the creation of all things to Yeshua?

“Alone and By myself” means “Alone and By myself”!

October 2, 2007 at 7:43 pm#67335

Participant

WJ;

I believe that Christ was with the Father when the world was created. I further believe that Christ created it all under commandment from his Father because the Son pleases the Father in all things and always does those things which are pleasing in his sight. Whatsoever the Son has done he has done by the power God who gave him the power. Jesus explained all of this in the gospel of John. You and your people always ignore what Jesus taught in this respect. Your post is a classic example. How much did Jesus say he could do without the Father? Did he say on earth only? no In heaven and earth, thy will be done. Most of your failure to see the truth is your own misunderstanding. You have to start with what Jesus taught to reconcile the prophets and the apostles. Otherwise, you will end up with what you believe because you do not really accept what Christ taught with respect to his relationship with his Father. Specifically, all power that Christ had was given to him from his Father.

Take Care

Steven

October 2, 2007 at 8:57 pm#67341

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 03 2007,07:43)

WJ;

Take Care

Steven

mr steve

Again you didnt answer my questions, but I understand.

You see I realize that Yeshua was given all power from the Father. However, this was after he came in the flesh and according to Phil 2:5-7, Jn 17:4,5 he had left the Glory he shared with the Father being in the form of God. But that power and Glory was restored after his ressurection.

Many take scriptures out of context to build their doctrines around without taking all scriptures in consideration.

No offence but I believe that if you hold your view that Jesus is not God then you cant explain the scriptures I posted concerning God “Alone” creating all things.

People think that the word 'elohiym' is a singular word. Its Plural. Yet God is one.

Its scriptures like this that are overlooked.

Jn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and *I work*.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Many will quote verse 19 out of context saying Jesus dosnt do anything its the Father in him.

Yet Jesus says “for what things soever he (the Father) doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

So Jesus sees the Father work and he works. Jesus is doing what he sees the Father doing. What mere man could do that? We have the Spirit of God and are ons of God but I know no man that can claim that.

When Jesus said he does nothing of himself he is not meaning he is void of power or that he cant do anything. He is saying that he does only the Fathers will for he later in this chapter says…

Jn 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Jesus came in the flesh to do the will of the Father.

Jesus does nothing without the Father but, the Father without Jesus does nothing, and we know it is by the Holy Spirit that they do all things

Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Jn 17:4
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

This is the same Jesus the apostles talked about which laid the foundations of the world. Heb 1:2,3, 10 Col 1:16,17, Jn 1:3.

Jesus is Both the “Son of God” and the “Son of man”.

Men say with no problem that the Son of man = man.

But they have a problem saying the “Monogenes” 'Unique', Son of God = God.

October 2, 2007 at 9:19 pm#67344

Participant

WJ;

Jesus did not say that he only received power from God when he came in the flesh. Also, you don't believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God prior to Mary, you believe he was the Word, which was God. Therefore, you don't even believe the Christ pre-existed. But here, you say he gave up the power in heaven. So how did he pre-exist? Generally, you respond with John 1:1. Read it again, the Word was God, not the Son of God. So who are you referring to that gave up what he had in heaven if not the Son of God. The Word was God, so if you say the Word gave up anything you're declaring that God changed.

This elohim name for God that you say is plural indicates God is plural yet one. What does the scripture say, “God is one.” Perhaps, the elohim name applies when God works through his Son Jesus?

I agree, we need to take all scriptures into consideration. Christ works under commandment of the Father. He worships the Father. The Father is his God. Do you take any of those scriptures into consideration?

Take Care

Steven

October 2, 2007 at 11:54 pm#67357

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 03 2007,09:19)

WJ;

This elohim name for God that you say is plural indicates God is plural yet one. What does the scripture say, “God is one.” Perhaps, the elohim name applies when God works through his Son Jesus?

Take Care

Steven

mr steve

I have given you scriptures that clearly show that Jesus is the “Word” that was spoken of in Jn 1:1.

But you choose not to address them.

1 Jn 1:1-3, Phil 2:5-7, Rev 19:13

You say…

Quote

Therefore, you don't even believe the Christ pre-existed.

Untrue. Where have I said Jesus didnt pre-exist?

You say…

Quote

But here, you say he gave up the power in heaven. So how did he pre-exist?

Phil 2:6-8

You say…

Quote

Generally, you respond with John 1:1. Read it again, the Word was God, not the Son of God.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Was the Father with himself?

Heres how you would read it then…

In the beginning was the “Father”, and the “Father” was with “the Father”, and the Father was the Father.

John didnt use the word “Pater”, Father he used the word “logos”

Which he explains in the rest of the chapter very clearly as being Yeshua.

And 1 Jn 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13.

You say…

Quote

So who are you referring to that gave up what he had in heaven if not the Son of God. The Word was God, so if you say the Word gave up anything you're declaring that God changed.

No! Can you empty yourself of all your rights of all you privilidges without changing you ontological natue. If you emtied yourself to the Father would you be any less human?

Phil 2:5-8

This is called the Hypostatic Union.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm

You say…

Quote

This elohim name for God that you say is plural indicates God is plural yet one. What does the scripture say, “God is one.” Perhaps, the elohim name applies when God works through his Son Jesus?

Gen 1:1
In the beginning *God* created the heaven and the earth.

Yet we read…
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The “us” is the Father and Yeshua the “Word” that was with God and was God” and the Holy Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. One God created man in “Our” “His” Image.

The trinity is revealed in the first book of our Bible.

Again mr steve you didnt address any of the scriptures that I mention giving me “Your” view of them. You are simply avoiding them and not answering my questions.

You claim that Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son but you have not given scriptural proof of your statement.

Where is the scripture? No scriptures says that the pre-existant Jesus had a beginnnig. No scripture says he was the Son before his natural birth.

Plz show me instead of accusing me of not believing in his pre-existence.

You also claim that Yeshua created all things yet you have not touched on the scriptures that clearly say “God alone” created all things.

Why are you avoiding this?

These are my questions.

Where is the scripture that says Jesus was the “Only Begotten Son” before his natural birth?

Where is the scripture that says the pre-incarnate Jesus had a beginning?

If Jesus is not God, One with the Father and the Spirit then how do you explain “God alone” created all things?

I have answered your questions. Would you plz answer mine?

October 3, 2007 at 6:56 pm#67396

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 03 2007,09:19)
WJ;

This elohim name for God that you say is plural indicates God is plural yet one. What does the scripture say, “God is one.” Perhaps, the elohim name applies when God works through his Son Jesus?

Take Care

Steven

mr steve

I have given you scriptures that clearly show that Jesus is the “Word” that was spoken of in Jn 1:1.

But you choose not to address them.

1 Jn 1:1-3, Phil 2:5-7, Rev 19:13

You say…Quote

Therefore, you don't even believe the Christ pre-existed.

Untrue. Where have I said Jesus didnt pre-exist?

You say…Quote

But here, you say he gave up the power in heaven. So how did he pre-exist?

Phil 2:6-8

You say…Quote

Generally, you respond with John 1:1. Read it again, the Word was God, not the Son of God.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Was the Father with himself?

Heres how you would read it then…

In the beginning was the “Father”, and the “Father” was with “the Father”, and the Father was the Father.

John didnt use the word “Pater”, Father he used the word “logos”

Which he explains in the rest of the chapter very clearly as being Yeshua.

And 1 Jn 1:1-3 and Rev 19:13.

You say…Quote

So who are you referring to that gave up what he had in heaven if not the Son of God. The Word was God, so if you say the Word gave up anything you're declaring that God changed.

No! Can you empty yourself of all your rights of all you privilidges without changing you ontological natue. If you emtied yourself to the Father would you be any less human?

Phil 2:5-8

This is called the Hypostatic Union.
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm

You say…
Quote
This elohim name for God that you say is plural indicates God is plural yet one. What does the scripture say, “God is one.” Perhaps, the elohim name applies when God works through his Son Jesus?

Gen 1:1
In the beginning *God* created the heaven and the earth.

Yet we read…
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The “us” is the Father and Yeshua the “Word” that was with God and was God” and the Holy Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. One God created man in “Our” “His” Image.

The trinity is revealed in the first book of our Bible.

Again mr steve you didnt address any of the scriptures that I mention giving me “Your” view of them. You are simply avoiding them and not answering my questions.

You claim that Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son but you have not given scriptural proof of your statement.

Where is the scripture? No scriptures says that the pre-existant Jesus had a beginnnig. No scripture says he was the Son before his natural birth.

Plz show me instead of accusing me of not believing in his pre-existence.

You also claim that Yeshua created all things yet you have not touched on the scriptures that clearly say “God alone” created all things.

Why are you avoiding this?

These are my questions.

Where is the scripture that says Jesus was the “Only Begotten Son” before his natural birth?

Where is the scripture that says the pre-incarnate Jesus had a beginning?

If Jesus is not God, One with the Father and the Spirit then how do you explain “God alone” created all things?

I have answered your questions. Would you plz answer mine?

————–

WJ;

John 1:1 is not referring to Jesus it is referring to the Word which was with God and is God. Luke 8:11 says the Word is the Seed. This does not mean that the Word was not made flesh in Christ. Just like Christ was full of the Holy Ghost, that does not make him the Holy Ghost. Jesus also said the Father was in him, that does not mean Christ is the Father. Finally, if the word is made flesh in Christ then the title the Word of God is a perfect title, and there is no contradiction found in 1 John 1: 1-3.

Phillipians 2 supports Christ' pre-existence as the Son of God. Where do you see him as anything other than a Son there. Did Christ change? That's what you believe. You have stated again he was not the Son of God prior to the incarnation.

With respect to the Genesis quote I have responded before but I will again per your request. The scriptures “let us” “in our image” show that Christ was a person with the Father at the time of creation. The Father by his power created all things by his power that he vested in Christ Jesus. The power belonged to the Father. Therefore, God who reveals himself as one created all things by his power alone. Genesis actually supports my view, not yours, that Christ was a person with God at that time of creation. You say that Christ pre-existed as the Word, but that is false because Christ always referred himself as a person when he existed with the Father. Jesus has no beginning of days as you believe.

I never have avoided your questions WJ, that's your game. I have a long list of questions that you still haven't answered. You make the excuses why you don't answer when you can't respond but they are just excuses.

With reference to Christ's pre-existence, for many years I believed that Christ was the Word in heaven because the notion of eternal sonship never made scriptural sense to me.

The Word is the seed, which Jesus said if you do not understand, how would you understand any of the parables. (parable of the sower) Just as an apple has seed which are part of the apple, yet distinct. I've never heard that truth preached or posted on any site or published in any book.

Christ himself was born of God by the Word. We do not have a date of birth for Jesus but we know he is the Son of God, therefore, Christ had a beginning in eternity past. Paul said Christ was without beginning of days. (referring to a beginning that originated on earth alone, like us)Hebrews 7:1-10.

John the Baptist said there is one coming after me who is preferred before me, the “shoelachets” of whom I am not worthy to unloose. Unless you believe the Father wears shoes, this could only be referring to the Son of God.

When John says the shoelachets of whom I am not worthy to unloose he could only be referring to Jesus (as opposed to the Father in Jesus) because the Father did not appear in the flesh, but remained in heaven. The Father was in Christ by the Spirit, which was given to Christ without measure. The reference to the shoelachets makes it clear that John was referring to the person Christ Jesus, not his Father and not the Word, which is also God. Moreover, to bolster this truth it is written in all four gospels. This was the testimony of John the Baptist of Christ pre-existence.

Jesus said
I know from whence I came and I am returning to where I was before. If Christ wasn't in heaven before coming to earth, then he lied, which is impossible. He also asked his disciples, what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before? John 6:62 Here, Jesus is stating he, the son of man, was before in heaven, thereby, establishing his pre-existence as the Son of God. He wasn't the Son of Man until his incarnation.

In John 8:58, Jesus said he existed before Abraham. The entire chapter centers on the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Every time Christ refers to his Father and knowing him, he is proclaiming the inherent truth that he is the Son of God. By contrast, because they reject him, they know not God, but are children of the devil. His statement that he existed before Abraham is unambiguous. Jesus isn't stating the Father was before Abraham. That is never the issue. The entire issue is who Jesus is and where he's from. Jesus never declares the Holy Spirit conceived him about 33 years ago. Christ never even refers to his earthly birth because he was from above, not from this world. He stated he was sent from the Father in heaven and would return there.

In John 8:41 the Jews state that they have one Father, even God. They believed that they were sons of God, too. The irony was that they claimed that Christ should be crucified for making the same claim they made themselves.

The entire essence of being sent from God requires that Christ be with the Father to be sent by him. Just as the disciples had to be with Jesus before being sent into the world by him.

When Christ said he came down from heaven he stated he was in heaven prior as the Son of God. Otherwise, whom is “he” referring to. The Word is not a person, it is the seed of God, the life of God, which was, is and is to come. The word is unchangeable. The word remains with God and is God.

All of us are born of the word. We are born from above. Christ was sent from above, that's the difference. Hence, if Christ did not pre-exist as the Son of God, then he is no different than any of us with respect to being born from above.

Jesus said the bread of God is he (Jesus the Son of God) which cometh down from heaven and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33

Jesus also said in John 6:38 that he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of him who sent him. This scripture is huge. It contains the truths that Christ was in heaven prior to coming to earth, that he had a will in heaven, thereby establishing himself as the Son of God in Heaven, unless you believe that the Son of God changed from being someone or thing other than the Son of God. Christ does not change. Hebrews 13:8 Here, we see that Jesus had a will in heaven. A word does not have a will. The word is life. Those who are born and created by God have wills.

The scriptures are very expressive regarding Christ pre-existence as a person, not some other being or force.

The truth that Jesus was the Son of God prior to his incarnation fills the gospel of John, let it fill your spirit, soul, and body, and believe it with all your heart.

Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. He that believeth on me as the scriptures hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters.

Take Care

Steven

[/QUOTE]

October 4, 2007 at 1:22 am#67425

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 02 2007,09:47)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 02 2007,00:26)

WJ,

Yes I have seen that error perpetuated many times.

YHWH is translated LORD, and we know that there is one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Trinitarians then say, see Jesus is YHWH.

But that is of course faulty reasoning and a confusion made by man. As truth seekers we need to go beyond the works of men, otherwise we will just accept as truth the works of men.

In the New Testament, Lord is translated from two (2) different words.

Lord=Master
LORD=YHWH

Some bibles do not use caps so it is hard to know which Lord is Lord and which Lord is YHWH.

Some versions of old were written in Hebrew originally. Matthew is one such book. The Jews were given a duty to preserve the “oracles” of Elohim. One day we will all know the truths, hiden until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Laurel

October 4, 2007 at 3:35 am#67443

IM4Truth

Participant

Laurel Thank you for your Prayers

Peace and Love Mrs.:D

October 5, 2007 at 3:12 am#67531

Samuel

Participant

Hmm…

I was raised in a pentecostal church, that believed the Trinity doctrine. I never really knew what that really meant. Other then the Father (I.E GOD), and the Son (I.E JESUS), and the spirit (I.E. Holy Ghost) were all three different. As, in that were SEPARATE beings. And, that they all generally agreed on the greater good of the all mighty GOD…or the I AM THAT I AM if you please. I never understood the faith of belief to mean that they were all one in the same…just that they agreed upon everything the same…much like a husband and wife will provided they are not mad at each other for some reason. But being as how we are talking about GOD and his Son and GODs spirit…Which I have always believed the 2 latter to have came from GOD himself. So… This is all really quit confusing to me.

Cause after looking at the study for the Trinity Doctrine on this site it really don't describe anything that i've ever believed either. Where they are all ONE…I always that they “Acted” or “Preformed” in the likeness as one would. But this trinity doctrine that I see being debated here is IMO claiming to be some sort of likeness to a Oneness belief…which I'm not sold on either.

It seems to me that no one has it right 100%…maybe thats cause God don't want it to be that way. Maybe its because the carnal mind can not fully have a complete comprehension of GOD, much like no carnal man could ever see god…it just can't happen…lol

What really kills me is how any believer from any belief can take a number of 5 or 10 scriptures…spend 20 minutes explaining their belief to someone…that probably don't know much about the bible or god and have them convinced of pretty much anything.

one example:
How can you take this?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

and get this?
For God so loved the world, that he gave himself in the flesh, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What man made greek or hebrew book, wrote by what scholar translates “Only begotten son” into “Himself in the flesh”?
I'd really like to know.

Even if that is the case…that is not what this scripture says at all…now way …no how.

And on this scripture:
John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

You know…this might be sort of a moot point, but…
If I were to come walking down the hall way…and you had already seen my father…You probably find that we looked a lot alike.

All I have to say is …

Some people are going to look really silly when they get to heaven, provided they even get there.

October 5, 2007 at 3:50 am#67533

Participant

Samuel,
I like your points. I did not know what the “trinity” was either untill I looked up the definition on a christain website. All “Christain” doctrine is based on the “trinity” a man mae doctrine which is defined as three separate persons in one person.

I was shocked when I first read this because I also thought as you did that the Spirit and the Son came from the Father.

The messed up twisted part of the trinity believers is that they believe the Y'shua is YHWH. In other words they believe that Y'shua is the Creator. They believe that the Father separates Himself in three ways for different purposes.

Early followers of the Messiah were called Messianites. Pagens labeled them Christains which is a word that at the time defined rebels. Eventually Christains adopted the title, I guess they liked to be thought of as rebels or they just didn't know what it meant.

Laurel
Good to have you with us Samuel

October 5, 2007 at 11:14 pm#67606

chipwhite

Participant

Hello samuel I have not said hello to you since you have come. I shared also some confusion when I first came to this site because all have valid points on one thing or another but your questioning and searching is what all believers need to do.. I pray that the Father blesses you through His Spirit to know whatever will draw you closer in your awe and worship of Him the Creator. ( thats a safe one no one will dissagree on that.)

Jesus was literally a son. A son of man (through mary) A son of God (through the Holy Spirit) Keep this in mind as you interpret scripture.

Also keep in mind that He was outside of time before he took on our nature (!!!!!!BECAME!!!! like us in every way) Just as Adam was created in His image (triune nature){ For God did not need to breath (another fleshly trait from the old testament Yahwee he he)}

Just as sin made the first adam perishable(which he was not when created), so the imperishable/pre existant Christ (because of sin), had to come down and be the sacrifice so that we may be made imperishable again. (like adam was when he was originally created)

God is visible in the created things (man,tabernacle,etc.etc.) so that men are without excuse. Blessings to all Chip

October 6, 2007 at 12:31 am#67613

Participant

Chip,
You lost me at triune. OUCH!
Laurel

October 6, 2007 at 12:32 am#67614