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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,04:05) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 17 2007,17:29) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2007,16:52) I am sure that they considered Yeshua to be YHWH, but not the person of the Father. I am sure that they considered the Holy Spirit to be “God”, a person but neither Father and Son. I am sure that they continued to have only One God above them.
I don't follow you.They believed God to be the Father only. To say that in addition to them believing that Jesus was God – that they also believed that Jesus was not the “person” of the Father is indeed a stretch, I'm sorry.
We are not given another definition of God in the NT. Paul does not give us another definition of God. He says that for US (you and me) there is but one God and that is the Father. This is true for Thomas and John as well.
not3No. They didnt believe God to only believe the Father.
That is the point.
OOPs. Typo!Should be…
They didnt believe God to only be the Father!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,05:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,04:05) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 17 2007,17:29) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 17 2007,16:52) I am sure that they considered Yeshua to be YHWH, but not the person of the Father. I am sure that they considered the Holy Spirit to be “God”, a person but neither Father and Son. I am sure that they continued to have only One God above them.
I don't follow you.They believed God to be the Father only. To say that in addition to them believing that Jesus was God – that they also believed that Jesus was not the “person” of the Father is indeed a stretch, I'm sorry.
We are not given another definition of God in the NT. Paul does not give us another definition of God. He says that for US (you and me) there is but one God and that is the Father. This is true for Thomas and John as well.
not3No. They didnt believe God to only believe the Father.
That is the point.
OOPs. Typo!Should be…
They didnt believe God to only be the Father!
Wow. I'm sure glad you corrected that one post – I was about to have a heart-attack!WJ, when Paul says that for US there is only one God and that is the Father…….what exactly do you think he meant? That the Father is only “part” of the one God he is speaking about? That would certainly be called inference to the highest degree!
As far as Thomas goes, I know you are trying desperately to stress that Thomas didn't believe Jesus to be the Father. I understand your point. However, for Thomas there was only one God and that God was the Father. I know you don't like this truth because it interferes with your theology, but it is true nonetheless. NOWHERE can you prove that Thomas thought any different about his God who is the Father of Abraham.
Isaiah is trying to say there was a “shift” that took place in the followers of Jesus. That is, that the followers began to believe that not only is the Father God – but that also Jesus was the “second person” of God (I'm not sure when the “shift” happened that the followers of Jesus also believed that the Holy Spirit was the “third person” of God? But that will have to be for another time, I guess). But I see no such “shift.”
All through the Bible, Jews and God-fearing Gentiles believe that God is the Father of Abraham. There is no “shift” in believing that God the Father is three-in-one.
They believe Jesus to be the son of Joseph and Mary; a prophet, the Son of God, a lunitic, demon possessed, a miracle worker, making himself out to be equal with God (this doesn't make him equal with God, only that they thought he was *trying to* be equal with God – which was the actual crime itself), and so on. NO ONE actually believed Jesus was God! Even our dear Thomas could have meant something different than proclaiming Jesus to be God – again – we were not in the room. He could have out reached his hands towards Jesus and said, “My Lord….” and then reached his hands towards heaven with such gratitude that God had given them back their teacher and friend, that he “….and my God!” meaning, “thank you!” We were not there. This scenerio could have been true. It seems frightening to base a theology on a sentence that could have several different meanings and indications.
You MUST deduce and deduct to put the Trinity doctrine together.
Most pastors who are honest will admit this is true. Most of the pastors I have met with will admit this – in the end. They also tell me that it is a teaching to be accepted on faith, and that it must be revered as a mystery.
They cannot point to a passage or scripture where the bible speaks of a Trinity explicity. I CAN POINT TO MANY SCRIPTURES THAT EXPLICITY SAY GOD IS ONE. I chose to believe the God of explicit scripture……I will not deduce a God of my making.
Hi W,
You say, offering no evidence.“They didnt believe God to only be the Father!”
Even if you were right Jesus clarified the matter for them.
Jn 18
” 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. “
Jn 8.54
“54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”God is one. God is the Father.
Isaiah 45:22,23
Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
By MYSELF I have sworn…..Myself=me
Me=I
I=the speakerWas Jesus speaking through God in Isaiah? Or before the incarnation, did they take turns speaking to one another within the same being? Can you imagine if they interupted eachother?
Hi Not3,
Once you have accepted the false doctrine of trinity you are not alone.
There are 1700 years of libraries filled with justifications at your disposal.Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,07:39) Isaiah 45:22,23
Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
By MYSELF I have sworn…..
Myself=me
Me=I
I=the speakerWas Jesus speaking through God in Isaiah? Or before the incarnation, did they take turns speaking to one another within the same being? Can you imagine if they interupted eachother?
not3Interesting choice of scripture.
Do you think YHWH chcanged his mind when he said..
Isa 45:22,23
Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
By MYSELF I have sworn…..So now he says look to a mere man (your Jesus) and be saved?
He said there is no other!
Has he changed his mind!
How about these…
Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is *no saviour*.Did he as you say…”have Jesus in mind” when he spoke that?
Or how about this one…
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.Or how about this one…
Hsa 13:14
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.Again, why did John refer to Jesus as YHWY.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
Why didnt John nor Jesus rebuke Thomas? Why didnt John explain that he meant the Father?
The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say…
“MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?
Listen again…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
If I was one I would be stressed to.
How do you explain these contradictions?
Hi W,
So by your logic applied to scripture Christ must be the God of the OT?
Then who is the Son of God?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2007,10:01) Hi W,
So by your logic applied to scripture Christ must be the God of the OT?
Then who is the Son of God?
Zexh 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.Matt 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Hi W,
Surely you would not revert to the shouted abuse of CB?
Surely if you teach truth then you would be a man of peace?
Isaiah 57:2
He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness
Isaiah 57:19
I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
Isaiah 59:8
The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,09:59) Why didnt John nor Jesus rebuke Thomas? Why didnt John explain that he meant the Father?
No one rebuked Thomas because Thomas didn't call Jesus God! Remember, you were not there. My theory could be correct. And it doesn't matter anyway if my theory is correct, there are plenty of plain and clear teachings that tell us the disciples did not believe their Rabbi and friend to be God Almighty, himself. That would have been a ridiculous thing for Jewish men to believe.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,09:59) Interesting choice of scripture. Do you think YHWH chcanged his mind when he said..
Isa 45:22,23
Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
By MYSELF I have sworn…..So now he says look to a mere man (your Jesus) and be saved?
He said there is no other!
Has he changed his mind!
I chose one of these “I alone am God” verses because I know you have used them quite a bit in the past to prove that Jesus is God. What I hoped to bring out was that God alone is God.Now, God can have a literal Son if he chooses to. This does not mean that his Son is God. The God spoken of in Isaiah is still in charge. We are told that salvation is the working of our God. That our God laid bare his holy arm and his arm brought salvation to us. Is God's arm to short to save? Certainly not!
In having a Son, whom we recognize as the second Adam, God is telling us that there was one way (the law) and now there is another way (Jesus). Paul tells us that if there wasn't something wrong with the first covenent, there would not be a second one. Indeed there is a second convenant! Praise God.
We still look to GOD to be saved. Only GOD can save us! Jesus didn't even consider himself “good” – he said that only GOD was good. Jesus said he couldn't do anything by himself but that it was GOD working in him and through him for his [God] good purposes.
God is not a man that he changes his mind. He told us to look to him for salvation and that he is God and there is no other. These things are still true. What has changed?
Did Jesus save us by dying on the cross? Well, yes, but consider this – it was GOD that raised him from the dead! Without the salvation of GOD ALONE, Jesus would have rot in the ground.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,10:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2007,10:01) Hi W,
So by your logic applied to scripture Christ must be the God of the OT?
Then who is the Son of God?
Zexh 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.Matt 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Back at'cha babe!
My mom always told me that when you point your finger at someone, you have three pointing back at you!
not3
You say…
Quote
Only GOD can save us! Jesus didn't even consider himself “good”HMMM. “Only God can save us”, but then you proceed to say a mere man you call “Jesus” saves you.
Jesus never said he wasnt good!
Jn 10:11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.You say…
Quote God is not a man that he changes his mind. He told us to look to him for salvation and that he is God and there is no other. These things are still true. What has changed? What has changed is you say there is no other yet you claim Jesus as your saviour!
You say…
Quote
Did Jesus save us by dying on the cross? Well, yes, but consider this – it was GOD that raised him from the dead! Without the salvation of GOD ALONE, Jesus would have rot in the ground.How do you explain this…
Jn 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.Your definition of “God alone” is the Father + a mere man.
My definition of “God Alone” is the Father and Jesus the WordGod who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.
My definition is scriptural, yours is not.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,10:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,10:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2007,10:01) Hi W,
So by your logic applied to scripture Christ must be the God of the OT?
Then who is the Son of God?
Zexh 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.Matt 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Back at'cha babe!
My mom always told me that when you point your finger at someone, you have three pointing back at you!
Not3Well if it is back at me then those three fingers are pointing back at you!
Hi W,
You say
“My definition of “God Alone” is the Father and Jesus the WordGod who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.”
At least we are now down to a binity God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2007,11:24) Hi W,
You say
“My definition of “God Alone” is the Father and Jesus the WordGod who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.”
At least we are now down to a binity God.
NHHave you not seen that the Spirit which is God proceeds from the Father and the Son!
Hi W,
You argue with yourself or did you not mean this when you said it?
“My definition of “God Alone” is the Father and Jesus the WordGod who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,11:20) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,10:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,10:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2007,10:01) Hi W,
So by your logic applied to scripture Christ must be the God of the OT?
Then who is the Son of God?
Zexh 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.Matt 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Back at'cha babe!
My mom always told me that when you point your finger at someone, you have three pointing back at you!
Not3Well if it is back at me then those three fingers are pointing back at you!
WJ, I love you.
You remind me of one of those kids who is always saying, “I know you are, but what am I?”Hi W,
You say
“Jn 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.”Did you not know Christ is the prophet spoken of in the OT and in Acts 2, anointed in the Spirit of God and filled with the Spirit of God he spoke the words of God?
John 3:34
“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.WJ writes:
Jesus never said he wasnt good!
**********************************Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? Jesus answered. “NO ONE is good – except God ALONE.”WJ writes:
What has changed is you say there is no other yet you claim Jesus as your saviour!
**************************************
Only GOD can save me. He chose to do this through his only begotten Son. Jesus did not save me by his work on the cross; it is by his resurrection that I have new life, and that by GOD who raised Jesus. Again, if it wasn't for GOD raising Jesus out of the tomb, he would still be there today with zero power to save anyone including himself!In regards to John 2 – just as in the Synoptics, when challenged to produce a miraculous sign as proof of his relationship with God, Jesus give the people a veiled reference to his future resurrection. The porophecy in John, however, does nt refer to Jonah as Matthew and Luke do, but to the temple of Jesus' body. In this case, John records Jesus' actual comment about the Temple, in which he prophesied that they would destroy the “temple,” that is kill him. In contrast, Matt. (26:61) and Mark (14:58) record the false witnesses giving their hearsay testimony at his trial, claiming that he had said that he would destroy the actual, physical Temple and rebuild it in three days.
WJ writes:
Your definition of “God alone” is the Father + a mere man.
*****************************
No. My definition of God is God. God also happen to have a Son who helped facilitate the master plan, but that Son is not God (too). Remember there is only ONE God.
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