Trinity – t8's proof text #2

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Would those who are in the vine not call out to be one with him at death?
Hades has no place for us but the mansions of Christ await.

[Proclaimer]

To WorshippingJesus.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 24 2007,23:29)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2007,20:30) Quote (t8 @ May 20 2007,20:19) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2007,15:03) For me it's more straight forward than that. I talk to Him. Hi Is 1:18. Don't forget the others too. When Trinitarians pray to YHWH, they pray to a HIM and yet can talk to three persons. The ironic thing here is that they should pray to THEM if they wish to be grammatically correct. Otherwise I can only conclude that they pray to the one substance, which seems rather odd don't you think? Surely, when we talk to a person (human), we talk to them and not their substance or nature. So if we talk to God, should we talk to his substance? If not, then I think you should at least refer to the Trinity as THEM, because they are after all 3 so-called persons. That would to me be more honest, than praying to 3 and addressing them as 1 which seems designed to appeal to the language found in scripture about God being one and God being a HIM. It actually comes across as deceptive to me. God is triune, but we will address him as HIM so that we are not accused of polytheism. The only excuse I can see for calling God HIM from a Trinitarian perspective is that they address the substance. But that seems very odd as I said before and it also seems to border on New Age philosophy in that God is a substance or energy. T8, No body prays to a substance. Kindly cease and desist from constantly using the straw man fallacy. It's childish and impresses no one. Be a grown up t8. Is 1:18 Amen. Foolish logic of an Arian. Definition of Arian… “one who does not believes Jesus is God in the flesh.

Actually it is the logic of Trinitarianism because they pray to a HIM and yet are talking to the Father, Son, and Spirit.

They talk to 3 and refer to him as 1. But the only part of God that is 1 according to you is the substance.

I am trying to guess the logic behind your confusing doctrine that is all.

It is nothing to do with Arianism, Donald Duckism, or any ism apart from Trintarianism.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 24 2007,09:45)

To WorshippingJesus. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 24 2007,23:29) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 20 2007,20:30) Quote (t8 @ May 20 2007,20:19) Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 21 2007,15:03) For me it's more straight forward than that. I talk to Him. Hi Is 1:18. Don't forget the others too. When Trinitarians pray to YHWH, they pray to a HIM and yet can talk to three persons. The ironic thing here is that they should pray to THEM if they wish to be grammatically correct. Otherwise I can only conclude that they pray to the one substance, which seems rather odd don't you think? Surely, when we talk to a person (human), we talk to them and not their substance or nature. So if we talk to God, should we talk to his substance? If not, then I think you should at least refer to the Trinity as THEM, because they are after all 3 so-called persons. That would to me be more honest, than praying to 3 and addressing them as 1 which seems designed to appeal to the language found in scripture about God being one and God being a HIM. It actually comes across as deceptive to me. God is triune, but we will address him as HIM so that we are not accused of polytheism. The only excuse I can see for calling God HIM from a Trinitarian perspective is that they address the substance. But that seems very odd as I said before and it also seems to border on New Age  philosophy in that God is a substance or energy.       T8, No body prays to a substance. Kindly cease and desist from constantly using the straw man fallacy. It's childish and impresses no one. Be a grown up t8. Is 1:18 Amen. Foolish logic of an Arian. Definition of Arian… “one who does not believes Jesus is God in the flesh. Actually it is the logic of Trinitarianism because they pray to a HIM and yet are talking to the Father, Son, and Spirit. They talk to 3 and refer to him as 1. But the only part of God that is 1 according to you is the substance. I am trying to guess the logic behind your confusing doctrine that is all. It is nothing to do with Arianism, Donald Duckism, or any ism apart from Trintarianism.

t8

My logic is scripturally based!

How about yours?

Do you claim the following verses as your own?

1 Cor 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all * in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lordboth theirs and ours*

1 Jn 1:3
*That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship (koinonia) with us: and truly our fellowship (koinonia) is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ*.

koinonia Greek; which means…

1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse
a) the share which one has in anything, participation
b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy

Do you see anything in this verse that makes fellowshipping with the Father any different than with the Son?

Or in the following verse speaking of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit?

2 Cor 13:14
*The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion (koinonia) of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen*

Tell me t8, how do you have this fellowship with the Father and the Son and the Spirit without prayer?

Or maybe you could give me your definition of prayer, since it seems that there are those who want to redifine the term.

What is the difference t8 in you “talking to the Father” or “praying to him”?

I am trying to understand the Logic of how you can approach the Father or have a relationship with him without the Son?

And if you do how does that play into Hebrew scriptures that God is by himself and there is no other?

My Bible says those who are called and sanctified call on the name of Jesus!!!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Do you fellowship with Christians?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2007,05:23)

t8 My logic is scripturally based! How about yours?

To WJ.

So you say.

But is this an admission that it is not grammatically correct?

[Proclaimer]

To WJ.

As for the other scriptures you quote, yes of course I agree with them.

I have fellowship with God, Jesus, and God's spirit.

The point here is that once again we have God and Jesus identified as 2 different identities.

So the scriptures you quote actually reinforce the truth that for believers, there is one God the Father. Not one God the Father, Son, Spirit, as you teach.

Trinitarianism should interpret God, Jesus, Spirit, as Father, Son, Spirit, son, Spirit. That makes 5 (a Quinity). So it is clear that God is the Father.

Quote

*The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion (koinonia) of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen*

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,11:05)

Hi W, Do you fellowship with Christians?

NH

Yes I do!

But I dont “spiritually call” on them, do you?

You can not have fellowship with the Father or the Son apart from “Spritually calling” on them, this is prayer!

Now if you “spiritually call” on Jesus and he is not your God, then you might as well call on the saints or Mary like the Catholics do.

This is in violation of the first and second commandments!

And to the Father, is no less than being a spiritist who calls on the dead!

Prayer is reserved for God alone!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
So you fellowship with Christians without praying to them?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
So you fellowship in the Holy Spirit with believers without praying to the believers or the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

So why do think fellowship with Christ must mean prayer to him?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,13:34)

Hi W, So you fellowship in the Holy Spirit with believers without praying to the believers or the Holy Spirit? 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. So why do think fellowship with Christ must mean prayer to him?

NH

If you cant see the difference in “Spiritually calling” on someone like the Lord and talking to a man face to face.

What can I say?

You havent told me the difference between “talking to” the Father and “praying to” the Father.

   

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
We are speaking of fellowship here.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,15:14)

Hi W, We are speaking of fellowship here.

NH

Yes, and fellowship with an unseen God is prayer!

Fellowship is not silent is it NH? It involves communion,

koinonia; which means…

1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse
a) *the share which one has in anything*, participation
b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy

If you are fellowshipping with God you are “spiritually calling” on him and that is prayer.

To “Spiritually call” on any other being than God is Idolatry!

1 Cor 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all * in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord both theirs and ours*

How do you explain this NH?

Do you call upon the Lord Jesus?

You dont think that is prayer. Please explain!

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
So the word 'fellowship' has different meanings depending on the circumstances? Hmm.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ May 24 2007,12:03)

To WJ. As for the other scriptures you quote, yes of course I agree with them. I have fellowship with God, Jesus, and God's spirit. The point here is that once again we have God and Jesus identified as 2 different identities. So the scriptures you quote actually reinforce the truth that for believers, there is one God the Father. Not one God the Father, Son, Spirit, as you teach. Trinitarianism should interpret God, Jesus, Spirit, as Father, Son, Spirit, son, Spirit. That makes 5 (a Quinity). So it is clear that God is the Father. Quote *The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion (koinonia) of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen*

t8

I am glad to see that you call upon Jesus, and fellowship with the Father and his Spirit.

So you admit there is “The Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Three persons that you fellowship with right?

Yes, the Father and Jesus is two persons, but since we also fellowship with the Spirit, we have three persons, right?

I am glad we agree.

Now we have to reconcile our fellowship with the three persons with the scriptures that says that God is “Alone”, “By himself”, and that there is “None beside him”. right.

Isa 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and *beside me there is no saviour*.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD (YHWH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just *God and a Saviour*; there is *none beside me*.

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: *for there is no saviour beside me*.

Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, *I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone*; that spreadeth abroad *the earth by myself*;

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; *God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.

Since we know the Lord does not lie and or contradict himself then we have to compare these scriptures with these…

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Heb 1:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

I Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isa
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Rev 1:8
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

I could go on, but hope you will get the point.

t8

How do you explain “spiritually calling” on another being besides God?

You still havnt given me your take on Jn 1:1 and 20:28!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,15:41)

Hi W, So the word 'fellowship' has different meanings depending on the circumstances? Hmm.

NH

Dance, Dance!

Is this all you know how to do friend? Respond to questions with questions.

I always answer yours, you never answer mine, or so it seems!

Ill ask again, if you dont answer I assume you dont have one.

Fellowship is not silent is it NH?

1 Cor 1:2
Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all * in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord both theirs and ours*

How do you explain this NH?

Do you call upon the Lord Jesus?

You dont think that is prayer. Please explain!

You havent told me the difference between “talking to” the Father and “praying to” the Father.

What is the difference, NH?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Paul did this too.
Acts 22
” 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. “
He is our Saviour and our Lord.
But his God is our God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,16:17)

Hi W, Paul did this too. Acts 22 ” 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. “ He is our Saviour and our Lord. But his God is our God.

NH

So does this mean you do pray to him?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Was Paul praying?

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
You say
“Three persons that you fellowship with right?”

We fellowship WITH God and His Son

1 John 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

But we fellowship in the Spirit not with the Spirit.

Philippians 2:1
[ Be Like Christ ] Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,

and in that Spirit we fellowship with one another.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

But if we do not abide in the Word we lose fellowship with God and His son.

2Jn
9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Trinity theory goes too far.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,16:22)

Hi W, Was Paul praying?

NH

I believe he did!

But, you see Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews and a strict monotheist, and Paul would know that to pray to any other being other than God would be Idolatry.

Yet Paul did!

It is because like John and Peter and Thomas and Luke and Ignatius and many others, they believed Jesus was God and still is.

He is one with the Father and the Spirit, the Lord from heaven. The Word/God made flesh. Yeshua, which means “YHWH is salvation”.

The Father tells us to come to the Son, but men are trying to climb up some other way.

Read the Acts and see what God they preached!

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